New calls for Gwent M4 relief road (From South Wales Argus)

Along with Severn Bridge tolls this is strangling the South Wales economy.
How much longer will the WAG pontificate on pointless compromise options.

A new M4 south of Newport would minimise disruption during construction, provide resilience via existing M4 and hopefully would allow opening of those stupid closed sliproads on Caerleon Road. For goodness sake GET IT DONE.

The new M4 has got to be built,lets scrap WAG and use the money saved.

Magor wrote:
The new M4 has got to be built,lets scrap WAG and use the money saved.

Now you're talking!

Come on Edwina get the original proposal new M4 along the levels back on the agenda & ignore the environmentalist FoE fluffy slipper brigade.

As sad as it sounds wouldn't it be easier and cheaper , to dig out the tunnels ? I'm sorry for the people and the hotel on top but that is the only way forward . They have done it before when they build the M4 !!

Can't see it being completed in our lifetime!!!......

I don't believe widening the tunnels is the answer to the M4's congestion.

If the tunnels are made into 3 lanes it would have no effect when there is another incident in or near the tunnels as the whole tunnel will be closed and we are back to square one battling along the SDR to bypass Newport.

The official diversion that SWTRA will always employ for ANY incident in between junction's 28 and 24 will be the SDR. This road runs under capacity on a normal day cannot cope with M4 traffic and this is when South Wales at large grinds to a halt when it acts as the diversion.

Until there is a viable alternative to the M4, South Wales will always suffer. This second road would no doubt be used a lot and the weight of traffic at the bottleneck tunnels would be greatly reduced allowing the 2 lane stretch to cope fine.

Tunnel widening would appear cheapest option but if there is an incident such as a fire all lanes would be closed and rightly so for safety reasons but if a second road was open all social, domestic and business traffic would continue to pass by Newport and get to their intended destinations on time.

Closing the M4 costs millions but with a second road traffic wouldn't stop and this should be offset against the cost of building the new road. Businesses and industry may then see Wales as worthy contender for bringing their money here...hence jobs.

You're probably looking at £100 million plus for a motorway around the south of Newport.

Frankly, I think there's better things to spend the money on.

KarmaSuitsYa wrote:
You're probably looking at £100 million plus for a motorway around the south of Newport.

Frankly, I think there's better things to spend the money on.

That's about the annual budget for S4C. A TV channel that virtually no-one watches. You'll never get big employers to S Wales the way things are.

Llanmartinangel wrote:

KarmaSuitsYa wrote:
You're probably looking at £100 million plus for a motorway around the south of Newport.

Frankly, I think there's better things to spend the money on.

That's about the annual budget for S4C. A TV channel that virtually no-one watches. You'll never get big employers to S Wales the way things are.

With around 700,000 people watching S4C each week, KarmaSuitsYa is right! There are better things to spend the money on.

cymruambyth wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

KarmaSuitsYa wrote:
You're probably looking at £100 million plus for a motorway around the south of Newport.

Frankly, I think there's better things to spend the money on.

That's about the annual budget for S4C. A TV channel that virtually no-one watches. You'll never get big employers to S Wales the way things are.

With around 700,000 people watching S4C each week, KarmaSuitsYa is right! There are better things to spend the money on.

Highest viewed program, a soap 103,000 viewers (around 3.5% of the Welsh population), lowest recorded is Heno at 23,000 which is less than 1%. So one imagines their Park Football on Saturdays gets no viewers to speak of. Great value eh? Not.

http://www.s4c.co.uk
/abouts4c/viewing/e_
index.shtml

Yes lets leave the future of the Welsh economy stew while sitting on our backsides watching some minority & heavily subsidised TV channel.

Limestonecowboy wrote:
Yes lets leave the future of the Welsh economy stew while sitting on our backsides watching some minority & heavily subsidised TV channel.

Or not watching as seems to be the case here.

Llanmartinangel wrote:

KarmaSuitsYa wrote:
You're probably looking at £100 million plus for a motorway around the south of Newport.

Frankly, I think there's better things to spend the money on.

That's about the annual budget for S4C. A TV channel that virtually no-one watches. You'll never get big employers to S Wales the way things are.

Ha, £100 million? Totally agree, what a rip-off. Though me not being Welsh onviously means I feel less strongly about it than others might.

If it's business you're after though, why not take that £100 million from S4C, add it to the other £100 mill or so that dear Rosemary wants to use to move all that nasty traffic away from her voters, and buy back the bridge.

What do you think? If we can get you on board, I may even be tempted to let you push the button that blows up the toll booths...

Yes, a marvellous concept in which funding for media, culture and heritage is "invested" in dual carriageways, motorways and tunnels! Does the trend of an increasing number of Welsh people adopting a British identity mean that a Welsh one should be eliminated?
As to addressing the problems of road congestion. Why not invest in getting more lorries off the roads through (for example) an improved, modern and reliable railway network directly aimed at meeting the current and long-term demands of the transport and logistics sector?

cymruambyth wrote:
Yes, a marvellous concept in which funding for media, culture and heritage is "invested" in dual carriageways, motorways and tunnels! Does the trend of an increasing number of Welsh people adopting a British identity mean that a Welsh one should be eliminated?
As to addressing the problems of road congestion. Why not invest in getting more lorries off the roads through (for example) an improved, modern and reliable railway network directly aimed at meeting the current and long-term demands of the transport and logistics sector?

'Media, culture & heritage'? The top program is a soap opera so I think the 'culture' aspect is a highly debatable. And given that not a single 'cultural' program appears to rate above 1%, so is that. Given that the audience figures, even among Welsh speakers are so low, it's evident that for most of S4C content there's no measurable demand. Are you sure that in an area with 3 rd world poverty you can't think of a single better use for £100 million? If not infrastructure to help growth then something worthwhile surely.

I certainly agree Llanmartinangel that an improvement in infrastructure is urgently required. However, I feel that there are ways of meeting these demands and reducing congestion that do not involve building more roads. Look at the current state of our public transport structures (local and national), for example. Surely more people would gladly leave the car at home if they were provided with a reliable and affordable bus or train service. Additionally, I firmly believe that the promotion of the Welsh language is "worthwhile" or do you believe that language and culture can be seperated?

I think if we were starting from scratch in designing the UK then maybe a less road dependent infrastructure might be possible but even the outskirts of London, overrun with public transport options as a City, are inaccessible by anything other than a car. I'm not for separating language and culture at all although part of me believes society is doing this in spite of well meaning efforts to stop it. I do think though that testing the efficacy of how money raised through public means is spent is essential in an age of conflicting priorities. And just accepting that we keep S4C 'because its when the viewers aren't even turning up, ' needs serious questioning when there are people without jobs and hope here.

I'm sure that we could spend hours finding examples for not only rural areas, but also locations in and around cities which are difficult to reach reliably with public transport. Having said that, I complete my daily 80 mile trip to work by train without any great difficulty. I realise that as things stand this is neither possible nor feasible for many commuters and/or in many vocational contexts. Although, as you comment, we can't design our infrastructure from "scratch", we can incorporate and invest in methods of getting larger quantities of freight off the roads and onto the rails.
As for conflicting priorities concerning public spending - is there anything new about that? Believing that culture is important, but still supporting the channeling of larger portions of public money only into areas which are seen as directly contributing to economic development is a dangerous path to take.

cymruambyth wrote:
I'm sure that we could spend hours finding examples for not only rural areas, but also locations in and around cities which are difficult to reach reliably with public transport. Having said that, I complete my daily 80 mile trip to work by train without any great difficulty. I realise that as things stand this is neither possible nor feasible for many commuters and/or in many vocational contexts. Although, as you comment, we can't design our infrastructure from "scratch", we can incorporate and invest in methods of getting larger quantities of freight off the roads and onto the rails.
As for conflicting priorities concerning public spending - is there anything new about that? Believing that culture is important, but still supporting the channeling of larger portions of public money only into areas which are seen as directly contributing to economic development is a dangerous path to take.

Not sure about the S4C or Welsh language stuff having anything to do with the M4 but you have got a point with trains. How many drivers could get off the M4 and go to work by train. Maybe we should question more closely how we get around. To be honest I never really thought of the train as an option for myself.

Mike Roland wrote:

cymruambyth wrote:
I'm sure that we could spend hours finding examples for not only rural areas, but also locations in and around cities which are difficult to reach reliably with public transport. Having said that, I complete my daily 80 mile trip to work by train without any great difficulty. I realise that as things stand this is neither possible nor feasible for many commuters and/or in many vocational contexts. Although, as you comment, we can't design our infrastructure from "scratch", we can incorporate and invest in methods of getting larger quantities of freight off the roads and onto the rails.
As for conflicting priorities concerning public spending - is there anything new about that? Believing that culture is important, but still supporting the channeling of larger portions of public money only into areas which are seen as directly contributing to economic development is a dangerous path to take.

Not sure about the S4C or Welsh language stuff having anything to do with the M4 but you have got a point with trains. How many drivers could get off the M4 and go to work by train. Maybe we should question more closely how we get around. To be honest I never really thought of the train as an option for myself.

The question was how to fund infrastructure improvements to aid Wales' recovery. Trains can be convenient but when I worked in Chiswick it was just under five hours each way by bus, then train, then tube, then another bus, then a ten minute walk. And that was if you didn't have to wait for each connection. It was two hours on the M4, enough said.

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mike Roland wrote:

cymruambyth wrote:
I'm sure that we could spend hours finding examples for not only rural areas, but also locations in and around cities which are difficult to reach reliably with public transport. Having said that, I complete my daily 80 mile trip to work by train without any great difficulty. I realise that as things stand this is neither possible nor feasible for many commuters and/or in many vocational contexts. Although, as you comment, we can't design our infrastructure from "scratch", we can incorporate and invest in methods of getting larger quantities of freight off the roads and onto the rails.
As for conflicting priorities concerning public spending - is there anything new about that? Believing that culture is important, but still supporting the channeling of larger portions of public money only into areas which are seen as directly contributing to economic development is a dangerous path to take.

Not sure about the S4C or Welsh language stuff having anything to do with the M4 but you have got a point with trains. How many drivers could get off the M4 and go to work by train. Maybe we should question more closely how we get around. To be honest I never really thought of the train as an option for myself.

The question was how to fund infrastructure improvements to aid Wales' recovery. Trains can be convenient but when I worked in Chiswick it was just under five hours each way by bus, then train, then tube, then another bus, then a ten minute walk. And that was if you didn't have to wait for each connection. It was two hours on the M4, enough said.

Newport to Chiswick by bus don't sound promising. See your point there so I suppose we'd all have to work it out for ourselves. Think though that the Cymru contributor has a point with the idea of finding alternatives to road transport.

Mike Roland wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mike Roland wrote:

cymruambyth wrote:
I'm sure that we could spend hours finding examples for not only rural areas, but also locations in and around cities which are difficult to reach reliably with public transport. Having said that, I complete my daily 80 mile trip to work by train without any great difficulty. I realise that as things stand this is neither possible nor feasible for many commuters and/or in many vocational contexts. Although, as you comment, we can't design our infrastructure from "scratch", we can incorporate and invest in methods of getting larger quantities of freight off the roads and onto the rails.
As for conflicting priorities concerning public spending - is there anything new about that? Believing that culture is important, but still supporting the channeling of larger portions of public money only into areas which are seen as directly contributing to economic development is a dangerous path to take.

Not sure about the S4C or Welsh language stuff having anything to do with the M4 but you have got a point with trains. How many drivers could get off the M4 and go to work by train. Maybe we should question more closely how we get around. To be honest I never really thought of the train as an option for myself.

The question was how to fund infrastructure improvements to aid Wales' recovery. Trains can be convenient but when I worked in Chiswick it was just under five hours each way by bus, then train, then tube, then another bus, then a ten minute walk. And that was if you didn't have to wait for each connection. It was two hours on the M4, enough said.

Newport to Chiswick by bus don't sound promising. See your point there so I suppose we'd all have to work it out for ourselves. Think though that the Cymru contributor has a point with the idea of finding alternatives to road transport.

So do I but whatever it is it needs funding. Also, this country has a dismal record on speedy infrastructure improvement be it road, rail or airport. Even when we do we come up with idiotic solutions like having the access to S Wales obstructed by tolls which can delay traffic by an hour on some days. If you are without work in Wales now the future isn't bright. You either move or someone needs to fund a solution which improves access and quick. And that takes politicians capable of making tough choices quickly. Why is my heart sinking?

not spendin anymore on them **** welsh roadsigns might be a good starter to saving a few quid. Serious though cant understand all the talkig and waiting for a relieve road which must come sooner or later. Better though sooner what with the tolls on the bridge and brynglas tunnels who'd ever strtup a firm in south wales. Bet the bird and grass brigades are witin though to chuck a spanner in the works.

cymruambyth wrote:
Yes, a marvellous concept in which funding for media, culture and heritage is "invested" in dual carriageways, motorways and tunnels! Does the trend of an increasing number of Welsh people adopting a British identity mean that a Welsh one should be eliminated?
As to addressing the problems of road congestion. Why not invest in getting more lorries off the roads through (for example) an improved, modern and reliable railway network directly aimed at meeting the current and long-term demands of the transport and logistics sector?

What a stupid idea "Why not invest in getting more lorries off the roads through (for example) an improved, modern and reliable railway network "
So how do you get the goods to the supermarket? As an example Tesco Ebbw Vale, Morrisons Ebbw Vale, Asda Brynmawr, Tesco Abertillery. Non of these is `next` to a railway line so what do we do ? Don't tell me, we load the goods from the trains into `lorries` and take it to the stores!

As much as everyone would love a modern integrated public transport system history shows it will never happen in the UK a) because the Government sold off public transport and don't have the will or funds to buy it back b) Brits just love our vehicles for lots of practical and emotional reasons and won't give them up. Maybe that's wrong, but that's the way it is and always will be.

Something has to be done about the M4 and I would rather spend more money on a proper solution than less money on a non-solution like widening the tunnels that would make the problem worse until construction is complete and not provide resilience. The importance to the South Wales economy of resilience ie an alternative route was demonstrated twice just last week.

Whatever the cost of the new M4 is will sound a lot of money but it really isn't against the total budget for, say, the next 30 years. The real cost is the lost opportunity cost ie the cost of not building it. The impact on existing business and lost investment for say 30 years will massively outweigh the build and maintenance cost. And lets not forget the direct and indirect jobs created during construction, badly needed in the current economy.

This is one of the few subjects where Newport gets support from all over South Wales. WAG have been totally incompetent pontificating on this forever. GET IT DONE.

Reality check. Some of these posts must be done by those who don't (drive) or travel along this arterial section of M4 it is simply out of date & dangerous.

Public transport is only an option city to city. Train travel is not cheaper (don't forget the West Coast Main Line francise fiasco it cost tax payers a min £50m!) Train travel is more expensive compared to travel by car it is however easier by train direct that's all. The best trains only serve city live in the country good luck!

Forget investment into 'culture' if this needs yet more funding then its simply not viable.

Lets get building & get moving.

tilleryvalleyboy wrote:

cymruambyth wrote:
Yes, a marvellous concept in which funding for media, culture and heritage is "invested" in dual carriageways, motorways and tunnels! Does the trend of an increasing number of Welsh people adopting a British identity mean that a Welsh one should be eliminated?
As to addressing the problems of road congestion. Why not invest in getting more lorries off the roads through (for example) an improved, modern and reliable railway network directly aimed at meeting the current and long-term demands of the transport and logistics sector?

What a stupid idea "Why not invest in getting more lorries off the roads through (for example) an improved, modern and reliable railway network "
So how do you get the goods to the supermarket? As an example Tesco Ebbw Vale, Morrisons Ebbw Vale, Asda Brynmawr, Tesco Abertillery. Non of these is `next` to a railway line so what do we do ? Don't tell me, we load the goods from the trains into `lorries` and take it to the stores!

End distribution to the retailer is only one stage in the logistics process. Of course the goods have to be delivered locally by lorries. We're talking about motorways here!

It is my understanding that the proposed tunnel widening will create an additional 2 tunnels that will form 4 lanes eastbound and the existing tunnels will then make 4 lanes westbound, this being the case there would be no need to completely close the motorway in event of an incident as they can they quickly and easily contra flow the traffic. In this scenario even if they had to completely close either the east or westbound carriageways you would still have 4 lanes the same as we have now do this does offer resilience.

lord iron of shumg wrote:
As sad as it sounds wouldn't it be easier and cheaper , to dig out the tunnels ? I'm sorry for the people and the hotel on top but that is the only way forward . They have done it before when they build the M4 !!

might sound easier and cheaper, but the ground in which the tunnels go through is very unstable.from what i've heard from my grandfather, a number of construction workers died during their construction and a number of houses had to be demolished. any alternative to help the congestion will help with newports economy as well as economies across south wales.

Limestonecowboy wrote:
Reality check. Some of these posts must be done by those who don't (drive) or travel along this arterial section of M4 it is simply out of date & dangerous.

Public transport is only an option city to city. Train travel is not cheaper (don't forget the West Coast Main Line francise fiasco it cost tax payers a min £50m!) Train travel is more expensive compared to travel by car it is however easier by train direct that's all. The best trains only serve city live in the country good luck!

Forget investment into 'culture' if this needs yet more funding then its simply not viable.

Lets get building & get moving.

Reality check. Some of these posts must have been made by those who have never considered the option of using the train more often. In real terms they'll notice very quickly that they save much more than just money, even if they live in rural areas. On the other hand, maybe a philistine would prefer some costly new tunnels even if they are no more "viable" than culture.

Rubbish. Travel by car is cheaper is getting cheaper public transport is so unreliable.

Limestonecowboy wrote:
Rubbish. Travel by car is cheaper is getting cheaper public transport is so unreliable.

I've an idea. Let's bring back steam trains and run them on all the hot air that comes from you. You'd be doing something useful, other than spouting nonsense all day.

Build the 2 new tunnels. Its that simple..... by back the bridge to fund it. When the bridge and tunnel projects are paid for build a southern m4. When that is paid for move the tolls from the bridge to the new faster southern m4 giving people a faster opion if needed like every other county/area in britian

Build the 2 new tunnels. Its that simple..... by back the bridge to fund it. When the bridge and tunnel projects are paid for build a southern m4. When that is paid for move the tolls from the bridge to the new faster southern m4 giving people a faster opion if needed like every other county/area in britian

It's clear that nobody posting here lives near the tunnels. They simply are not fit for purpose. They are built on unstable ground and many of the houses on the top of them are subsiding already. We know that if there is any sort of incident in the tunnels, the whole of the city comes to a standstill. How can building bigger tunnels be justified? The only viable option to anyone with a bit of common sense is the relief road. Granted, it will run through a beautiful part of our city, but the price is worth paying.

Agree with teacher1977 on not having the tunnels built. Dont think the unstable ground argument is gonna get anywhere today though because modern civil engineering wont let that get in the way.