CHARTIST MURAL: An open letter to the people of Newport by Hollywood star, Newport-born Michael Sheen

OPEN LETTER: Newport-born Hollywood star Michael Sheen has written an open letter to the people of Newport over the destruction of the Chartist Mural

OPEN LETTER: Newport-born Hollywood star Michael Sheen has written an open letter to the people of Newport over the destruction of the Chartist Mural

First published in News
Last updated

AFTER the events surrounding the destruction of the mural celebrating the Chartists in John Frost Square recently, I feel compelled to write an open letter to the people of Newport.

Firstly, the vicious irony of something that was created to celebrate those who risked much for the good of all, being wiped out without consulting the people themselves, and under the auspices of a Labour led City Council serving the needs of profit above all else, is both absurd as well as tragic.

That so little was done, or was able to be done, by us, in order to stop this from happening, brings shame to us all.

The Council themselves do not want to let us know who was responsible for allowing this to happen for fear of ‘assassination attempts’, and while it is heartening to know that the Council feel they include someone of the ilk of John Kennedy, Martin Luther King or Mahatma Ghandi, the real point is that the responsibility is ours, if we wish to honour the values of the Chartists - fairness, equality and a political system that truly represents the needs of the people.

Clearly that political system has let us down in this case.

So what can we do about it?

Firstly, for those who do know something of who the Chartists were, what they stood for and what happened in Newport in 1839, do whatever you can to tell as many people about it as possible. Forgetting what has been struggled for in the past makes it so much easier for those who would take from us in the present.

Secondly, let us all come together and find a common ground upon which we can re-affirm our belief in those values. I urge the Council, those who have been active in demonstrating against the destruction of the mural, and all those who have an interest in this, which I hope would be anyone that has a stake in a free and truly representative society, to focus now on how we can celebrate the past, connect it to the present and look hopefully toward the future.

There has been talk of a ‘like for like reproduction’ of the mural and so forth, with various possible sites. I propose that whatever form it takes and wherever it may take place, it should be as much within the ownership of the people as possible, and done under the advice of the people, rather than being handed out to us after a minimum of face-saving consultation and left vulnerable to the next time someone wants to build a bigger shopping centre or the like.

There have been various figures thrown around about costs for such a project. In order to keep costs down, perhaps we could look into the possibility of students from various art schools and design courses working together on this. Having done something similar when working on ‘The Passion’ a few years ago, I was amazed and inspired by the vision, commitment and resourcefulness of the design students I worked with. Looking for found materials to work with, along with as much of the original destroyed mural as can be salvaged, could connect the past with the present in a grounded and economical way perhaps.

Inviting ideas and suggestions for a new mural/mosaic/whatever it might be, and finding out what sort of artistic response would reflect how the people of Newport feel now about what the Chartists stood for, allows the possibility of something new and exciting and that speaks to who we are now as well as honouring who we have been before.

I feel sure that we can find a way to pay for it that will allow it to happen at all, first and foremost, but also to allow it to be fully in the ownership of the people.

But this is all in your hands. The City Council, the activists and all those who wish to be represented fairly and openly.

This is about more than the mural itself. It is about standing up for certain values and freedoms and ideals when they come under attack, whether through greed, malice, ignorance or sheer stupidity.

I hope we can make the Chartists proud.

Michael Sheen

Comments (88)

Please log in to enable comment sorting

7:10am Fri 18 Oct 13

Vox Dei says...

Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.
Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact. Vox Dei
  • Score: -96

7:34am Fri 18 Oct 13

M Henry Morgan says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.
Somewhat ironic that someone who appears to regard themselves as a Deity should infer the arrogance of self-promotion on someone else? Then again you just may be a stray member of a South American rock band which would just add to the irrelevance here of what you spout!
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.[/p][/quote]Somewhat ironic that someone who appears to regard themselves as a Deity should infer the arrogance of self-promotion on someone else? Then again you just may be a stray member of a South American rock band which would just add to the irrelevance here of what you spout! M Henry Morgan
  • Score: 45

7:57am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

We should be so honoured that the great thespian takes the time to write an open letter to us all.

Rarely have I felt so humbled.

Didn't his dad race motorbikes?
We should be so honoured that the great thespian takes the time to write an open letter to us all. Rarely have I felt so humbled. Didn't his dad race motorbikes? KarloMarko
  • Score: 4

8:28am Fri 18 Oct 13

Katie Re-Registered says...

Mainstream politicians are keen to be seen to pay plenty of lip service about their respect for the Chartists yet I'm willing to bet that if a group of ordinary people fed up with Westminser representing bankers, utilities companies and media barons instead of the electorate, similary armed themselves and marched towards the Houses of Parliament local and national politicians would be queueing up to publicly denounce them as 'yobs' and even 'terrorists'.
Mainstream politicians are keen to be seen to pay plenty of lip service about their respect for the Chartists yet I'm willing to bet that if a group of ordinary people fed up with Westminser representing bankers, utilities companies and media barons instead of the electorate, similary armed themselves and marched towards the Houses of Parliament local and national politicians would be queueing up to publicly denounce them as 'yobs' and even 'terrorists'. Katie Re-Registered
  • Score: 33

8:42am Fri 18 Oct 13

Mervyn James says...

Silly Billy........
Silly Billy........ Mervyn James
  • Score: -25

9:04am Fri 18 Oct 13

Woodgnome says...

Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record.
Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record. Woodgnome
  • Score: 41

9:09am Fri 18 Oct 13

Vox Dei says...

Woodgnome wrote:
Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record.
I will gladly change my record when all the latter-day moaners stop professing their undying love for a mural that they couldn't give two hoots about a few months ago. Pure hypocrisy.
[quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record.[/p][/quote]I will gladly change my record when all the latter-day moaners stop professing their undying love for a mural that they couldn't give two hoots about a few months ago. Pure hypocrisy. Vox Dei
  • Score: -37

9:14am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Well I think we should respect Marty's. heartfelt concern as its not as though he's an off shore windbag flashing his Welsh working class roots...

A fat cheque will surely follow.
Well I think we should respect Marty's. heartfelt concern as its not as though he's an off shore windbag flashing his Welsh working class roots... A fat cheque will surely follow. KarloMarko
  • Score: -24

9:18am Fri 18 Oct 13

Woodgnome says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Woodgnome wrote:
Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record.
I will gladly change my record when all the latter-day moaners stop professing their undying love for a mural that they couldn't give two hoots about a few months ago. Pure hypocrisy.
I see, are readers retards as well as hypocrites, we got your point weeks ago? Being patronising is just as nauseating as hypocrisy.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record.[/p][/quote]I will gladly change my record when all the latter-day moaners stop professing their undying love for a mural that they couldn't give two hoots about a few months ago. Pure hypocrisy.[/p][/quote]I see, are readers retards as well as hypocrites, we got your point weeks ago? Being patronising is just as nauseating as hypocrisy. Woodgnome
  • Score: 32

9:21am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Hush! That scratching sound is Marty writing his cheque...

All down to Barclays next week for the grand "paying in".
Hush! That scratching sound is Marty writing his cheque... All down to Barclays next week for the grand "paying in". KarloMarko
  • Score: -28

9:24am Fri 18 Oct 13

Victor Melldrew says...

Well written letter in my opinion, nice one.
Well written letter in my opinion, nice one. Victor Melldrew
  • Score: 38

9:27am Fri 18 Oct 13

sharon1717 says...

KarloMarko wrote:
Well I think we should respect Marty's. heartfelt concern as its not as though he's an off shore windbag flashing his Welsh working class roots...

A fat cheque will surely follow.
Who is Marty? The man's name is Michael!
[quote][p][bold]KarloMarko[/bold] wrote: Well I think we should respect Marty's. heartfelt concern as its not as though he's an off shore windbag flashing his Welsh working class roots... A fat cheque will surely follow.[/p][/quote]Who is Marty? The man's name is Michael! sharon1717
  • Score: 25

9:40am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

All actors are called "Marty"...its the law.

In actor land.

After that geezer in "Badlands"
All actors are called "Marty"...its the law. In actor land. After that geezer in "Badlands" KarloMarko
  • Score: -22

9:59am Fri 18 Oct 13

BernardCCC says...

Good letter...are the council listening?
Good letter...are the council listening? BernardCCC
  • Score: 25

10:03am Fri 18 Oct 13

BernardCCC says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.
And what is your agenda in all this? Nothing intelligent that's clear.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.[/p][/quote]And what is your agenda in all this? Nothing intelligent that's clear. BernardCCC
  • Score: 22

10:06am Fri 18 Oct 13

Practicing Pragmatist says...

So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................
....
So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................ .... Practicing Pragmatist
  • Score: -20

10:14am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Good to see the Argus flogging full page Mr. Sheen advertising space!

Makes a change from the leather sofas.
Good to see the Argus flogging full page Mr. Sheen advertising space! Makes a change from the leather sofas. KarloMarko
  • Score: -23

10:17am Fri 18 Oct 13

BernardCCC says...

Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................

....
Life takes you places. But home is where your heart is!
[quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................ ....[/p][/quote]Life takes you places. But home is where your heart is! BernardCCC
  • Score: 33

10:20am Fri 18 Oct 13

Gwentgirl01 says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Woodgnome wrote:
Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record.
I will gladly change my record when all the latter-day moaners stop professing their undying love for a mural that they couldn't give two hoots about a few months ago. Pure hypocrisy.
Vox… please stop trying to second guess peoples feelings on the mural and that no one gave ( I quote) “Two hoots” about this mural prior to its demolition at the hands of a council who are so blatantly out of touch with the local zeitgeist that they might as well be governing Mars.

It seems you are totally rigid in your misguided belief that all the (I quote again) “moaners” are using the destruction of the mural as an opportunity to complain for complaining sake.

Wrong.

Feelings are running high due to some plain and truthful facts: the council are not being transparent about this demolition/ there is little evidence to prove the mural could not be moved and relocated elsewhere/ the destruction itself was done by stealth.

I think these are pretty good reasons for the ongoing negative feelings - don’t you?

Kudos to Michael Sheen, a well known and successful Welsh actor and obviously eloquent man, for his input and for helping to raise awareness of this act of cultural and social vandalism.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: Give us a break Mark 2, Vox Dei. You told us what you think weeks ago and it's time to change the record.[/p][/quote]I will gladly change my record when all the latter-day moaners stop professing their undying love for a mural that they couldn't give two hoots about a few months ago. Pure hypocrisy.[/p][/quote]Vox… please stop trying to second guess peoples feelings on the mural and that no one gave ( I quote) “Two hoots” about this mural prior to its demolition at the hands of a council who are so blatantly out of touch with the local zeitgeist that they might as well be governing Mars. It seems you are totally rigid in your misguided belief that all the (I quote again) “moaners” are using the destruction of the mural as an opportunity to complain for complaining sake. Wrong. Feelings are running high due to some plain and truthful facts: the council are not being transparent about this demolition/ there is little evidence to prove the mural could not be moved and relocated elsewhere/ the destruction itself was done by stealth. I think these are pretty good reasons for the ongoing negative feelings - don’t you? Kudos to Michael Sheen, a well known and successful Welsh actor and obviously eloquent man, for his input and for helping to raise awareness of this act of cultural and social vandalism. Gwentgirl01
  • Score: 53

10:26am Fri 18 Oct 13

Vox Dei says...

There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is.
There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is. Vox Dei
  • Score: -36

10:42am Fri 18 Oct 13

Practicing Pragmatist says...

Vox Dei wrote:
There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is.
Well at least we can all go about our business in town now without having to negotiate our way through the hordes of locals and tourists that were always flocking in to look at it, used to drive me mad.......
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is.[/p][/quote]Well at least we can all go about our business in town now without having to negotiate our way through the hordes of locals and tourists that were always flocking in to look at it, used to drive me mad....... Practicing Pragmatist
  • Score: 1

10:46am Fri 18 Oct 13

DavidMclean says...

Considering Vox Dei posted on here a few weeks ago that he's fed up with reading about this mural, he sure is pretty obsessed with it.
Considering Vox Dei posted on here a few weeks ago that he's fed up with reading about this mural, he sure is pretty obsessed with it. DavidMclean
  • Score: 37

10:49am Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.
Yes of course Hollywood movie star Michael Sheen is in desperate need of a bit of promotion in the South Wales Argus, this should put that Oscar on a plate for him.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.[/p][/quote]Yes of course Hollywood movie star Michael Sheen is in desperate need of a bit of promotion in the South Wales Argus, this should put that Oscar on a plate for him. Jimport
  • Score: 33

10:50am Fri 18 Oct 13

Practicing Pragmatist says...

DavidMclean wrote:
Considering Vox Dei posted on here a few weeks ago that he's fed up with reading about this mural, he sure is pretty obsessed with it.
Maybe he is trying to balance the hysteria?
[quote][p][bold]DavidMclean[/bold] wrote: Considering Vox Dei posted on here a few weeks ago that he's fed up with reading about this mural, he sure is pretty obsessed with it.[/p][/quote]Maybe he is trying to balance the hysteria? Practicing Pragmatist
  • Score: 1

11:00am Fri 18 Oct 13

portman says...

Is this News ?
Is this News ? portman
  • Score: -6

11:00am Fri 18 Oct 13

Mr.Jolly. says...

Whoever Vox Dei is he seems to have as much empathy with the feelings of the people of Newport as the Council displayed when they ripped down the Chartist mural in such an underhand sneaky manner.
The word "Shill" springs to mind.
The very least the Council could do as a public apology to the people of Newport is commission Oliver Budd to make an exact full size replica-if possible using as many of the tiles that can be recovered from his Father's amazing work...it would also offer the chance to include the piece that was originally omitted.Let the council members responsible for it's destruction forfeit a years pay to pay for it. Maybe this would help them think twice with respect to the electorate's feelings.
Whoever Vox Dei is he seems to have as much empathy with the feelings of the people of Newport as the Council displayed when they ripped down the Chartist mural in such an underhand sneaky manner. The word "Shill" springs to mind. The very least the Council could do as a public apology to the people of Newport is commission Oliver Budd to make an exact full size replica-if possible using as many of the tiles that can be recovered from his Father's amazing work...it would also offer the chance to include the piece that was originally omitted.Let the council members responsible for it's destruction forfeit a years pay to pay for it. Maybe this would help them think twice with respect to the electorate's feelings. Mr.Jolly.
  • Score: 29

11:04am Fri 18 Oct 13

Mr.Jolly. says...

P.S.
There are many people such as students and local artists who I am sure would be more than happy to donate time to this to keep costs down.
I certainly would- I have experience of making and installing mosaic murals.
P.S. There are many people such as students and local artists who I am sure would be more than happy to donate time to this to keep costs down. I certainly would- I have experience of making and installing mosaic murals. Mr.Jolly.
  • Score: 25

11:06am Fri 18 Oct 13

Llanmartinangel says...

Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................

....
It rather does have the Sean Connery ring about it doesn't it? You know the actor luvvy who is so passionate about Scottish Independence that he lives in the Bahamas and LA.
[quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................ ....[/p][/quote]It rather does have the Sean Connery ring about it doesn't it? You know the actor luvvy who is so passionate about Scottish Independence that he lives in the Bahamas and LA. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: -1

11:09am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Any sign of the BIG cheque yet?

I hear Robert De Niro, Cath Zeta and Al Pacino are planning to picket the Council on Monday. How can we lose?
Any sign of the BIG cheque yet? I hear Robert De Niro, Cath Zeta and Al Pacino are planning to picket the Council on Monday. How can we lose? KarloMarko
  • Score: -13

11:16am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

PS...Tiger Woods say he'll never shop in Newport again.
PS...Tiger Woods say he'll never shop in Newport again. KarloMarko
  • Score: -8

11:31am Fri 18 Oct 13

heresphil says...

You just know there's a movie on the way about all this this don't you:

REVOLT!
Corrupt lackeys of an evil multinational capitalist institution coldheartedly destroy the proud heritage of a small Welsh community. Only one plucky freedom fighter dares stand up to them.

Starring:
MICHAEL SHEEN as John Frost Junior
SIR ANTHONY HOPKINS as Bob Bright
CATHERINE ZETA-JONES as Pippa Bartolotti
and introducing
SIR IAN MCKELLEN as Paul Flynn

Cert. 18 coming to the new Cineworld Central, Newport, sometime in 2015/16/17.
You just know there's a movie on the way about all this this don't you: REVOLT! Corrupt lackeys of an evil multinational capitalist institution coldheartedly destroy the proud heritage of a small Welsh community. Only one plucky freedom fighter dares stand up to them. Starring: MICHAEL SHEEN as John Frost Junior SIR ANTHONY HOPKINS as Bob Bright CATHERINE ZETA-JONES as Pippa Bartolotti and introducing SIR IAN MCKELLEN as Paul Flynn Cert. 18 coming to the new Cineworld Central, Newport, sometime in 2015/16/17. heresphil
  • Score: 16

11:46am Fri 18 Oct 13

welshannie says...

how sad such negative and sarcastic comments from vox die etc.and others about the fact that michael sheen took time out of a a busy schedule and sent a letter to the argus about destruction of the chartist mural. well done michael for expressing what many of us think and what a great idea that it could be replaced by students artwork.well done michael
how sad such negative and sarcastic comments from vox die etc.and others about the fact that michael sheen took time out of a a busy schedule and sent a letter to the argus about destruction of the chartist mural. well done michael for expressing what many of us think and what a great idea that it could be replaced by students artwork.well done michael welshannie
  • Score: 37

11:47am Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................


....
It rather does have the Sean Connery ring about it doesn't it? You know the actor luvvy who is so passionate about Scottish Independence that he lives in the Bahamas and LA.
Michael Sheen was in Newport last Saturday, as it happens.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: So please that someone so involved with Newport and with it's best interests at heart has stood up to be counted! (oh wait.....say what? He was brought up in a middle class family in Port Talbott? Upped sticks to London asap? And he lives in Hollywood? Oh well, he was born here............) Maybe he will buy a house here and start putting money back in his 'community' as he obviously feels very passionate about his 'home town', I look forward to bumping into him buying his bananas in the market very soon................ ....[/p][/quote]It rather does have the Sean Connery ring about it doesn't it? You know the actor luvvy who is so passionate about Scottish Independence that he lives in the Bahamas and LA.[/p][/quote]Michael Sheen was in Newport last Saturday, as it happens. Jimport
  • Score: 31

11:49am Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

You forgot about Edward Fox as General Reaction who machine guns the Chartists and then opens the new Debenhams!

S4C already have the screenplay.
You forgot about Edward Fox as General Reaction who machine guns the Chartists and then opens the new Debenhams! S4C already have the screenplay. KarloMarko
  • Score: -9

11:52am Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

KarloMarko wrote:
You forgot about Edward Fox as General Reaction who machine guns the Chartists and then opens the new Debenhams!

S4C already have the screenplay.
Andy Serkis could play a few of the trolls that appear on these comment threads.
[quote][p][bold]KarloMarko[/bold] wrote: You forgot about Edward Fox as General Reaction who machine guns the Chartists and then opens the new Debenhams! S4C already have the screenplay.[/p][/quote]Andy Serkis could play a few of the trolls that appear on these comment threads. Jimport
  • Score: 12

12:09pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Have any of you, inc Sheen, thought that if you gave a **** about what the Chartists argued you would be raising hell about food banks, forced workfare for the poor and slashed disability benefits?

No, way too much of a stretch? Lets just drown in Hollywood sentimentality.
Have any of you, inc Sheen, thought that if you gave a **** about what the Chartists argued you would be raising hell about food banks, forced workfare for the poor and slashed disability benefits? No, way too much of a stretch? Lets just drown in Hollywood sentimentality. KarloMarko
  • Score: -16

12:14pm Fri 18 Oct 13

llafur says...

We should place the blame for the fiasco over the Chartist Murial where it belongs at the door of the Chief Executive of Newport Council and the Welsh Government who paid for its distruction ..
We should place the blame for the fiasco over the Chartist Murial where it belongs at the door of the Chief Executive of Newport Council and the Welsh Government who paid for its distruction .. llafur
  • Score: 9

12:16pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

KarloMarko wrote:
Have any of you, inc Sheen, thought that if you gave a **** about what the Chartists argued you would be raising hell about food banks, forced workfare for the poor and slashed disability benefits?

No, way too much of a stretch? Lets just drown in Hollywood sentimentality.
Plenty are, as it happens.
[quote][p][bold]KarloMarko[/bold] wrote: Have any of you, inc Sheen, thought that if you gave a **** about what the Chartists argued you would be raising hell about food banks, forced workfare for the poor and slashed disability benefits? No, way too much of a stretch? Lets just drown in Hollywood sentimentality.[/p][/quote]Plenty are, as it happens. Jimport
  • Score: 15

12:25pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Lord coed melyn says...

Jimport wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.
Yes of course Hollywood movie star Michael Sheen is in desperate need of a bit of promotion in the South Wales Argus, this should put that Oscar on a plate for him.
Vox is running a line.
With comments that seem to be protectionist of curtain bodys.
ie newport unlimited or an executive of the city.?
Dictators don't like criticism.
[quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.[/p][/quote]Yes of course Hollywood movie star Michael Sheen is in desperate need of a bit of promotion in the South Wales Argus, this should put that Oscar on a plate for him.[/p][/quote]Vox is running a line. With comments that seem to be protectionist of curtain bodys. ie newport unlimited or an executive of the city.? Dictators don't like criticism. Lord coed melyn
  • Score: 5

12:39pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Roger Elliot says...

Vox Deil hasn't any proper arguments he she or it just launches ad hominems. Probably a shill for the throttlebottoms" who did the dastardly deed.

"Word of the day - THROTTLEBOTTOM - an inept or dishonest person who holds public office.
Vox Deil hasn't any proper arguments he she or it just launches ad hominems. Probably a shill for the throttlebottoms" who did the dastardly deed. "Word of the day - THROTTLEBOTTOM - an inept or dishonest person who holds public office. Roger Elliot
  • Score: 7

12:41pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Vox Dei says...

I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well?
I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well? Vox Dei
  • Score: -18

12:56pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Gwentgirl01 says...

Vox Dei wrote:
I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well?
Oh Voxy, Voxy…

You claim you are no insider, no shill, yet you have watched the various Argus comments streams like a raptor watches a rabbit - always first to strike, always first for the jugular - ever since the news first broke about the demolition.

Either you: a) make a full time career out of being a troll or b) you are the social media representative on behalf of NCC.

If the latter, please ask Bob to stick you on a social media course with some of that £600K he has just saved, because you need the skillz if you are going to be the voice of God.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well?[/p][/quote]Oh Voxy, Voxy… You claim you are no insider, no shill, yet you have watched the various Argus comments streams like a raptor watches a rabbit - always first to strike, always first for the jugular - ever since the news first broke about the demolition. Either you: a) make a full time career out of being a troll or b) you are the social media representative on behalf of NCC. If the latter, please ask Bob to stick you on a social media course with some of that £600K he has just saved, because you need the skillz if you are going to be the voice of God. Gwentgirl01
  • Score: 21

1:07pm Fri 18 Oct 13

UpsetResident says...

Vox Dei wrote:
I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well?
Don't be such a dick Vox Dei, you've made your point, its clear you are not a constructive voice in this discussion, so go troll somewhere else.

I for one appreciate Michael Sheen's efforts, i'm a fan of his work and i'm proud that he is Newport born and cares enough to get involved.

And i think while we all bay for blood over the handling of this issue, he has some fair words for us to think on.. Just as soon as we oust Bob Bright and his band of merry men.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well?[/p][/quote]Don't be such a dick Vox Dei, you've made your point, its clear you are not a constructive voice in this discussion, so go troll somewhere else. I for one appreciate Michael Sheen's efforts, i'm a fan of his work and i'm proud that he is Newport born and cares enough to get involved. And i think while we all bay for blood over the handling of this issue, he has some fair words for us to think on.. Just as soon as we oust Bob Bright and his band of merry men. UpsetResident
  • Score: 19

1:28pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

This campaign lost the plot when its Facebook outriders compared the destruction of the mural to Hitler and Stalin. What no Pol Pot? Pinocet?

Morons.

And to complete the farce we know have a ex pat Hollywood luvie riding into town. Who said satire was dead?

It lives and breathes in Zooport.
This campaign lost the plot when its Facebook outriders compared the destruction of the mural to Hitler and Stalin. What no Pol Pot? Pinocet? Morons. And to complete the farce we know have a ex pat Hollywood luvie riding into town. Who said satire was dead? It lives and breathes in Zooport. KarloMarko
  • Score: -12

2:13pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Vox Dei says...

Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.
Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever. Vox Dei
  • Score: -7

2:18pm Fri 18 Oct 13

UpsetResident says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.
And by that Vox Dei, what exactly are you insinuating? I'm merely commenting on your churlish attitude and lack of basic understanding. If you are concerned that i meant anything else, it just shows how far off the mark you are in pretty much all aspects of your opinion!

But, there we go.. enjoy your smugness chappy!
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.[/p][/quote]And by that Vox Dei, what exactly are you insinuating? I'm merely commenting on your churlish attitude and lack of basic understanding. If you are concerned that i meant anything else, it just shows how far off the mark you are in pretty much all aspects of your opinion! But, there we go.. enjoy your smugness chappy! UpsetResident
  • Score: 10

2:26pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Breaking News...

James Dean says he will never race his Porsche down Commercial Street again.

"I am so angry", says James, "that I have even stopped buying my Elvis records at Diverse Vinyl...and I really love that shop."
Breaking News... James Dean says he will never race his Porsche down Commercial Street again. "I am so angry", says James, "that I have even stopped buying my Elvis records at Diverse Vinyl...and I really love that shop." KarloMarko
  • Score: -6

2:28pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Vox Dei says...

I am insinuating nothing. What I mean is plain to see: I state my rational opinion and get accused of attacking people. Conversely I am attacked and get accused of being unconstructive. It is not being a "dick" for standing up to rational thought and not jumping on the blame bandwagon as have so many others.
I am insinuating nothing. What I mean is plain to see: I state my rational opinion and get accused of attacking people. Conversely I am attacked and get accused of being unconstructive. It is not being a "dick" for standing up to rational thought and not jumping on the blame bandwagon as have so many others. Vox Dei
  • Score: 1

2:29pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Stevenboy says...

UpsetResident wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well?
Don't be such a dick Vox Dei, you've made your point, its clear you are not a constructive voice in this discussion, so go troll somewhere else.

I for one appreciate Michael Sheen's efforts, i'm a fan of his work and i'm proud that he is Newport born and cares enough to get involved.

And i think while we all bay for blood over the handling of this issue, he has some fair words for us to think on.. Just as soon as we oust Bob Bright and his band of merry men.
'It's clear you are not a constructive voice in this discussion'

Anyone else see the irony there? It IS a discussion fathead. i.e. differing views allowed. Or did you appoint yourself as the arbiter who decides what is legitimate opinion and what isn't? As for everyone fawning over some patronising tripe from a self-publicising actor, well sorry, I think the views of Newport people, both for and against, count for more.
[quote][p][bold]UpsetResident[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: I am no shill. I am not employed by the council or Newport Unlimited. You just don't seem to understand that not everyone was so utterly enamoured of the thing. Were you all at the Sex Pistols gig as well?[/p][/quote]Don't be such a dick Vox Dei, you've made your point, its clear you are not a constructive voice in this discussion, so go troll somewhere else. I for one appreciate Michael Sheen's efforts, i'm a fan of his work and i'm proud that he is Newport born and cares enough to get involved. And i think while we all bay for blood over the handling of this issue, he has some fair words for us to think on.. Just as soon as we oust Bob Bright and his band of merry men.[/p][/quote]'It's clear you are not a constructive voice in this discussion' Anyone else see the irony there? It IS a discussion fathead. i.e. differing views allowed. Or did you appoint yourself as the arbiter who decides what is legitimate opinion and what isn't? As for everyone fawning over some patronising tripe from a self-publicising actor, well sorry, I think the views of Newport people, both for and against, count for more. Stevenboy
  • Score: 7

2:30pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Practicing Pragmatist says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.
I agree.

Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'.

I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say.

The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever.

Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about.

And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.[/p][/quote]I agree. Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'. I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say. The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever. Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about. And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much. Practicing Pragmatist
  • Score: 6

3:27pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Radio Wales says...

Katie Re-Registered wrote:
Mainstream politicians are keen to be seen to pay plenty of lip service about their respect for the Chartists yet I'm willing to bet that if a group of ordinary people fed up with Westminser representing bankers, utilities companies and media barons instead of the electorate, similary armed themselves and marched towards the Houses of Parliament local and national politicians would be queueing up to publicly denounce them as 'yobs' and even 'terrorists'.
Oh so true! A salutary reminder that in essence, nothing has changed except the date - and that Botany Bay has been upgraded to Guantanimo Bay.
[quote][p][bold]Katie Re-Registered[/bold] wrote: Mainstream politicians are keen to be seen to pay plenty of lip service about their respect for the Chartists yet I'm willing to bet that if a group of ordinary people fed up with Westminser representing bankers, utilities companies and media barons instead of the electorate, similary armed themselves and marched towards the Houses of Parliament local and national politicians would be queueing up to publicly denounce them as 'yobs' and even 'terrorists'.[/p][/quote]Oh so true! A salutary reminder that in essence, nothing has changed except the date - and that Botany Bay has been upgraded to Guantanimo Bay. Radio Wales
  • Score: -3

3:44pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Sol Invictus says...

If I could pick up on what Practicing Pragmatist asserts here:

'The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest)'

These figures don't tell the whole story. The views of Newport residents in relation to the mural have not been accurately quantified.

If a full survey was taken I rather suspect that the figure might turn out to be a lot more than 5000 or so in favour of keeping the mural.

Many more people deplore the behaviour of Newport City Council in the aftermath of the mural's destruction. Have you considered this?

However, even if we consider the above figures to be accurate and exhaustive (which they are not), does it follow that you can completely ignore the views of 5000 people, even if they constitute a minority?

Of course you can't. The minority groups must also have their views considered. That's part of living in a democratic, pluralistic society.

You cannot govern a people by simply picking the biggest demographic group and waving two fingers at everyone else.

These 5000 'hysterical' people as you call them also pay their council tax, also have the vote and are also entitled to have their public servants consider their wishes.

They are also entitled to peacefully protest if they are ignored and are absolutely right to do so and furthermore, they have my full support.
If I could pick up on what Practicing Pragmatist asserts here: 'The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest)' These figures don't tell the whole story. The views of Newport residents in relation to the mural have not been accurately quantified. If a full survey was taken I rather suspect that the figure might turn out to be a lot more than 5000 or so in favour of keeping the mural. Many more people deplore the behaviour of Newport City Council in the aftermath of the mural's destruction. Have you considered this? However, even if we consider the above figures to be accurate and exhaustive (which they are not), does it follow that you can completely ignore the views of 5000 people, even if they constitute a minority? Of course you can't. The minority groups must also have their views considered. That's part of living in a democratic, pluralistic society. You cannot govern a people by simply picking the biggest demographic group and waving two fingers at everyone else. These 5000 'hysterical' people as you call them also pay their council tax, also have the vote and are also entitled to have their public servants consider their wishes. They are also entitled to peacefully protest if they are ignored and are absolutely right to do so and furthermore, they have my full support. Sol Invictus
  • Score: 11

4:05pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Radio Wales says...

Vox Dei wrote:
There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is.
We were on record as mentioning that it's less than salubrious location was something of a dampener to hanging around to admire it.
However, each of us had visited and appraised it and approved of it AND wished for it to continue - albeit in better surroundings.

You are well aware that locals rarely visit their own attractions anywhere, EXCEPT to show them off to visitors.
The general line of comments from these visitors were 'Wonderful history recorded in a readily understandable and absorbing mural - shame about the ghastly location in such a grim town - Oops city - centre such as ours where a new development was used as an excuse to be rid of it. (Just one in a promised stream of developments at that!)

The council made no secret about hating the mural more than they hated the ship and clock and wished for them to disappear, until one day it was sneakily done. Obviously civic pride means nothing to them beyond the chain of office from which only the brief holder derives any benefit.

It illustrates to me even if to no other, that our council cares nothing for Newport, out city, our heritage or the people. just themselves. I for one will not forgive this act of civic recklessness and contempt for their electorate.

If you don't subscribe to this line of thought, what are you doing here other than just to sneer at those that do want Newport to be a noticed city worthy of a little bit of important history of its own? Clearly it doesn't have much of a future from the self-serving bunch that are tasked with looking after it.
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is.[/p][/quote]We were on record as mentioning that it's less than salubrious location was something of a dampener to hanging around to admire it. However, each of us had visited and appraised it and approved of it AND wished for it to continue - albeit in better surroundings. You are well aware that locals rarely visit their own attractions anywhere, EXCEPT to show them off to visitors. The general line of comments from these visitors were 'Wonderful history recorded in a readily understandable and absorbing mural - shame about the ghastly location in such a grim town - Oops city - centre such as ours where a new development was used as an excuse to be rid of it. (Just one in a promised stream of developments at that!) The council made no secret about hating the mural more than they hated the ship and clock and wished for them to disappear, until one day it was sneakily done. Obviously civic pride means nothing to them beyond the chain of office from which only the brief holder derives any benefit. It illustrates to me even if to no other, that our council cares nothing for Newport, out city, our heritage or the people. just themselves. I for one will not forgive this act of civic recklessness and contempt for their electorate. If you don't subscribe to this line of thought, what are you doing here other than just to sneer at those that do want Newport to be a noticed city worthy of a little bit of important history of its own? Clearly it doesn't have much of a future from the self-serving bunch that are tasked with looking after it. Radio Wales
  • Score: 13

4:07pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

The straw man argument.

No one is arguing against anyone's right to protest however large or small the number. No one is saying that those opinions should not be heard or debated.

What I now object to is a lumpen campaign that seeks to stiffle any reservation and now moronically drags in Hitler and Stalin's atrocities, a "slide" that is at least, deeply offensive. For Gods sake if you want to be taken seriously, grow up.

If it's herds and flocks you want...go tend your "sheep". This is a Debate.
The straw man argument. No one is arguing against anyone's right to protest however large or small the number. No one is saying that those opinions should not be heard or debated. What I now object to is a lumpen campaign that seeks to stiffle any reservation and now moronically drags in Hitler and Stalin's atrocities, a "slide" that is at least, deeply offensive. For Gods sake if you want to be taken seriously, grow up. If it's herds and flocks you want...go tend your "sheep". This is a Debate. KarloMarko
  • Score: -3

4:14pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Radio Wales says...

Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.
I agree.

Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'.

I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say.

The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever.

Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about.

And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.
Duly noted.

By the way, the majority of people are NOT happy with the way things turned out. The majority simply don't care - as is usual on most subjects.
[quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.[/p][/quote]I agree. Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'. I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say. The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever. Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about. And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.[/p][/quote]Duly noted. By the way, the majority of people are NOT happy with the way things turned out. The majority simply don't care - as is usual on most subjects. Radio Wales
  • Score: 1

4:16pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

KarloMarko wrote:
The straw man argument.

No one is arguing against anyone's right to protest however large or small the number. No one is saying that those opinions should not be heard or debated.

What I now object to is a lumpen campaign that seeks to stiffle any reservation and now moronically drags in Hitler and Stalin's atrocities, a "slide" that is at least, deeply offensive. For Gods sake if you want to be taken seriously, grow up.

If it's herds and flocks you want...go tend your "sheep". This is a Debate.
Go on Facebook and tell the people dragging Hitler and Stalin into it how ridiculous they clearly are then. Nobody apart from you has mentioned either on this thread so it serves no purpose to tell posters on here to grow up based on that.
[quote][p][bold]KarloMarko[/bold] wrote: The straw man argument. No one is arguing against anyone's right to protest however large or small the number. No one is saying that those opinions should not be heard or debated. What I now object to is a lumpen campaign that seeks to stiffle any reservation and now moronically drags in Hitler and Stalin's atrocities, a "slide" that is at least, deeply offensive. For Gods sake if you want to be taken seriously, grow up. If it's herds and flocks you want...go tend your "sheep". This is a Debate.[/p][/quote]Go on Facebook and tell the people dragging Hitler and Stalin into it how ridiculous they clearly are then. Nobody apart from you has mentioned either on this thread so it serves no purpose to tell posters on here to grow up based on that. Jimport
  • Score: 5

4:22pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Practicing Pragmatist says...

Sol Invictus wrote:
If I could pick up on what Practicing Pragmatist asserts here: 'The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest)' These figures don't tell the whole story. The views of Newport residents in relation to the mural have not been accurately quantified. If a full survey was taken I rather suspect that the figure might turn out to be a lot more than 5000 or so in favour of keeping the mural. Many more people deplore the behaviour of Newport City Council in the aftermath of the mural's destruction. Have you considered this? However, even if we consider the above figures to be accurate and exhaustive (which they are not), does it follow that you can completely ignore the views of 5000 people, even if they constitute a minority? Of course you can't. The minority groups must also have their views considered. That's part of living in a democratic, pluralistic society. You cannot govern a people by simply picking the biggest demographic group and waving two fingers at everyone else. These 5000 'hysterical' people as you call them also pay their council tax, also have the vote and are also entitled to have their public servants consider their wishes. They are also entitled to peacefully protest if they are ignored and are absolutely right to do so and furthermore, they have my full support.
Democracy = majority vote will decide action
[quote][p][bold]Sol Invictus[/bold] wrote: If I could pick up on what Practicing Pragmatist asserts here: 'The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest)' These figures don't tell the whole story. The views of Newport residents in relation to the mural have not been accurately quantified. If a full survey was taken I rather suspect that the figure might turn out to be a lot more than 5000 or so in favour of keeping the mural. Many more people deplore the behaviour of Newport City Council in the aftermath of the mural's destruction. Have you considered this? However, even if we consider the above figures to be accurate and exhaustive (which they are not), does it follow that you can completely ignore the views of 5000 people, even if they constitute a minority? Of course you can't. The minority groups must also have their views considered. That's part of living in a democratic, pluralistic society. You cannot govern a people by simply picking the biggest demographic group and waving two fingers at everyone else. These 5000 'hysterical' people as you call them also pay their council tax, also have the vote and are also entitled to have their public servants consider their wishes. They are also entitled to peacefully protest if they are ignored and are absolutely right to do so and furthermore, they have my full support.[/p][/quote]Democracy = majority vote will decide action Practicing Pragmatist
  • Score: 0

4:24pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Dee-Gee says...

1/ Vox Dei is not a troll, he's just wrong (IMO)

2/ The argument that people should be worrying about "more important things" is just plain stupid, you can do that all day. "Why are you worrying about food banks in a first world country when there are places in the world that have no food banks and no food?" "Why are you worrrying about food shortages when the real problem is corruption?" and on, and on...

3/ I agree with much of what Mr Sheen says, but this: "That so little was done, or was able to be done, by us, in order to stop this from happening, brings shame to us all" is nonsense. Shame is the most useless, destructive, self-paralysing emotion in the book. Newportonians suffer enough of that from the people who like to talk the city down - we don't need that self-indulgent BS from within our own camp.

4/ Recreating the mural with the bit that was left out sounds like a fantastic idea. Would be great if something positive could come out of this debacle.
1/ Vox Dei is not a troll, he's just wrong (IMO) 2/ The argument that people should be worrying about "more important things" is just plain stupid, you can do that all day. "Why are you worrying about food banks in a first world country when there are places in the world that have no food banks and no food?" "Why are you worrrying about food shortages when the real problem is corruption?" and on, and on... 3/ I agree with much of what Mr Sheen says, but this: "That so little was done, or was able to be done, by us, in order to stop this from happening, brings shame to us all" is nonsense. Shame is the most useless, destructive, self-paralysing emotion in the book. Newportonians suffer enough of that from the people who like to talk the city down - we don't need that self-indulgent BS from within our own camp. 4/ Recreating the mural with the bit that was left out sounds like a fantastic idea. Would be great if something positive could come out of this debacle. Dee-Gee
  • Score: 13

4:25pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Practicing Pragmatist says...

Radio Wales wrote:
Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
Vox Dei wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.
I agree. Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'. I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say. The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever. Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about. And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.
Duly noted. By the way, the majority of people are NOT happy with the way things turned out. The majority simply don't care - as is usual on most subjects.
Yes, you've said it yourself you are in the minority. And as such you did not get the outcome you desired. Isn't that how democracy is meant to work?
[quote][p][bold]Radio Wales[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.[/p][/quote]I agree. Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'. I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say. The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever. Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about. And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.[/p][/quote]Duly noted. By the way, the majority of people are NOT happy with the way things turned out. The majority simply don't care - as is usual on most subjects.[/p][/quote]Yes, you've said it yourself you are in the minority. And as such you did not get the outcome you desired. Isn't that how democracy is meant to work? Practicing Pragmatist
  • Score: -1

4:28pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
Sol Invictus wrote:
If I could pick up on what Practicing Pragmatist asserts here: 'The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest)' These figures don't tell the whole story. The views of Newport residents in relation to the mural have not been accurately quantified. If a full survey was taken I rather suspect that the figure might turn out to be a lot more than 5000 or so in favour of keeping the mural. Many more people deplore the behaviour of Newport City Council in the aftermath of the mural's destruction. Have you considered this? However, even if we consider the above figures to be accurate and exhaustive (which they are not), does it follow that you can completely ignore the views of 5000 people, even if they constitute a minority? Of course you can't. The minority groups must also have their views considered. That's part of living in a democratic, pluralistic society. You cannot govern a people by simply picking the biggest demographic group and waving two fingers at everyone else. These 5000 'hysterical' people as you call them also pay their council tax, also have the vote and are also entitled to have their public servants consider their wishes. They are also entitled to peacefully protest if they are ignored and are absolutely right to do so and furthermore, they have my full support.
Democracy = majority vote will decide action
That's just one conception of democracy though. Constitutional democracies are limited democracies protecting minorities from the 'tyranny of the majority'.
[quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Sol Invictus[/bold] wrote: If I could pick up on what Practicing Pragmatist asserts here: 'The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest)' These figures don't tell the whole story. The views of Newport residents in relation to the mural have not been accurately quantified. If a full survey was taken I rather suspect that the figure might turn out to be a lot more than 5000 or so in favour of keeping the mural. Many more people deplore the behaviour of Newport City Council in the aftermath of the mural's destruction. Have you considered this? However, even if we consider the above figures to be accurate and exhaustive (which they are not), does it follow that you can completely ignore the views of 5000 people, even if they constitute a minority? Of course you can't. The minority groups must also have their views considered. That's part of living in a democratic, pluralistic society. You cannot govern a people by simply picking the biggest demographic group and waving two fingers at everyone else. These 5000 'hysterical' people as you call them also pay their council tax, also have the vote and are also entitled to have their public servants consider their wishes. They are also entitled to peacefully protest if they are ignored and are absolutely right to do so and furthermore, they have my full support.[/p][/quote]Democracy = majority vote will decide action[/p][/quote]That's just one conception of democracy though. Constitutional democracies are limited democracies protecting minorities from the 'tyranny of the majority'. Jimport
  • Score: 3

4:28pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
Radio Wales wrote:
Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
Vox Dei wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.
I agree. Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'. I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say. The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever. Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about. And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.
Duly noted. By the way, the majority of people are NOT happy with the way things turned out. The majority simply don't care - as is usual on most subjects.
Yes, you've said it yourself you are in the minority. And as such you did not get the outcome you desired. Isn't that how democracy is meant to work?
A petition is not a vote.
[quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Radio Wales[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.[/p][/quote]I agree. Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'. I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say. The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever. Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about. And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.[/p][/quote]Duly noted. By the way, the majority of people are NOT happy with the way things turned out. The majority simply don't care - as is usual on most subjects.[/p][/quote]Yes, you've said it yourself you are in the minority. And as such you did not get the outcome you desired. Isn't that how democracy is meant to work?[/p][/quote]A petition is not a vote. Jimport
  • Score: 5

4:50pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

The actual Chartist movement was riven by political, factional and strategic debates about aims and how to progress.

Just as well they weren't contributing to this mindless forum. They would have been told sharply that they were trolls and traitors to the cause. Cos WE know what's to be thought and what's to be done. Tragic.
The actual Chartist movement was riven by political, factional and strategic debates about aims and how to progress. Just as well they weren't contributing to this mindless forum. They would have been told sharply that they were trolls and traitors to the cause. Cos WE know what's to be thought and what's to be done. Tragic. KarloMarko
  • Score: -3

4:59pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Sol Invictus says...

Practising Pragmatist wrote:

"Democracy = majority vote will decide action"

Yes thats true. However it is still possible, with a bit of creativity, to go with majority vote whilst giving consideration, and being seen to be giving consideration to the views of other minorities.

Newport City Council could have done this in a variety of ways - total destruction was not the only option.

For example, we know that about 5000 people would have liked the whole piece to be saved.

Practising Pragmatist, Vox Dei, Bryan, my question to you is, would you seriously say that 5000 peoples' views deserve no consideration whatsoever and should be completely ignored?

For example, if NCC could have saved a smaller portion of the piece and mounted it respectfully, that might have shown at least a minimum consideration to views of those 5000 people whom the council are employed to serve.

That's whats known as a compromise.

Newport City Council, in case you are reading this, compromise means everyone gets at least a little bit of what they want and no one gets completely ignored.
Practising Pragmatist wrote: "Democracy = majority vote will decide action" Yes thats true. However it is still possible, with a bit of creativity, to go with majority vote whilst giving consideration, and being seen to be giving consideration to the views of other minorities. Newport City Council could have done this in a variety of ways - total destruction was not the only option. For example, we know that about 5000 people would have liked the whole piece to be saved. Practising Pragmatist, Vox Dei, Bryan, my question to you is, would you seriously say that 5000 peoples' views deserve no consideration whatsoever and should be completely ignored? For example, if NCC could have saved a smaller portion of the piece and mounted it respectfully, that might have shown at least a minimum consideration to views of those 5000 people whom the council are employed to serve. That's whats known as a compromise. Newport City Council, in case you are reading this, compromise means everyone gets at least a little bit of what they want and no one gets completely ignored. Sol Invictus
  • Score: 9

5:13pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Votefornoneoftheabove says...

The mural has now been taken down/demolished and I am as upset as most people.

I applaud Mr Sheen, and the fact that he has taken the time to write a letter to the Argus shows that he still cares about Newport.

The people of Newport now have two objectives to complete:

1) Decide on/if a replacement mural is to be created and where to situate it.

2) Keep fighting to have the Leader and Chief Executive removed from NCC.

As for the comments from Vox Dei, which is a Latin translation for "Gods word" you are either stupid,employed by or a friend of God himself Bob Bright! Actually you may be all three.

You are entitled to your comments but reading through them each day it appears for some unknown reason that you have an interest in defending what has gone on regarding Bright, Godfrey and NCC. I cannot understand why and I am sure that you will comment later.

Do you believe that the way it has been handled has been done well?

Do you have faith in NCC?

Do you feel that Bright and Godfrey have mislead the people of Newport?

I did assume that you may be educated by using the tag Vox Dei but then remembered that there were a 70's band also with the same name from Argentina, so you may just like heavy rock and all that head banging in your younger days has messed with your brain.

Yes the city is not the best in Wales or the UK for that matter but we all have a right as do you to make comments that not only knock the negatives but also praise the positives.

Time to move forward now and decide the answers to the two questions we all face as residents.
The mural has now been taken down/demolished and I am as upset as most people. I applaud Mr Sheen, and the fact that he has taken the time to write a letter to the Argus shows that he still cares about Newport. The people of Newport now have two objectives to complete: 1) Decide on/if a replacement mural is to be created and where to situate it. 2) Keep fighting to have the Leader and Chief Executive removed from NCC. As for the comments from Vox Dei, which is a Latin translation for "Gods word" you are either stupid,employed by or a friend of God himself Bob Bright! Actually you may be all three. You are entitled to your comments but reading through them each day it appears for some unknown reason that you have an interest in defending what has gone on regarding Bright, Godfrey and NCC. I cannot understand why and I am sure that you will comment later. Do you believe that the way it has been handled has been done well? Do you have faith in NCC? Do you feel that Bright and Godfrey have mislead the people of Newport? I did assume that you may be educated by using the tag Vox Dei but then remembered that there were a 70's band also with the same name from Argentina, so you may just like heavy rock and all that head banging in your younger days has messed with your brain. Yes the city is not the best in Wales or the UK for that matter but we all have a right as do you to make comments that not only knock the negatives but also praise the positives. Time to move forward now and decide the answers to the two questions we all face as residents. Votefornoneoftheabove
  • Score: 22

5:30pm Fri 18 Oct 13

33daverave says...

Vox Dei wrote:
Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.
You still got your tongue up Bob Bright's posterior ?
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Mike, how many people did you being to visit the mural before its demolition? This letter achieves nothing but self-promotion after the fact.[/p][/quote]You still got your tongue up Bob Bright's posterior ? 33daverave
  • Score: 10

5:35pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

"The people of Newport now have two objectives to complete..." (itz official)


Turn your papers over now. Attempt both questions. No talking. Anyone found with the answers written on their wrist or ankle will be sent to Cwmbran. You have thirty minutes. Pencils ready. Good luck.
"The people of Newport now have two objectives to complete..." (itz official) Turn your papers over now. Attempt both questions. No talking. Anyone found with the answers written on their wrist or ankle will be sent to Cwmbran. You have thirty minutes. Pencils ready. Good luck. KarloMarko
  • Score: -9

6:02pm Fri 18 Oct 13

CRWnpt says...

Ceri Waters How dare he. I have stood on freezing Novemeber nights in St Woolos cathedral with the labour councillor s year after year to commemorate the Chartists. No celebs were there and a handful of Newportonians but always the labour councillors. They make no publicity about it just honour what those people did with dignity and respect. Know all the facts Michael.
Ceri Waters How dare he. I have stood on freezing Novemeber nights in St Woolos cathedral with the labour councillor s year after year to commemorate the Chartists. No celebs were there and a handful of Newportonians but always the labour councillors. They make no publicity about it just honour what those people did with dignity and respect. Know all the facts Michael. CRWnpt
  • Score: 1

6:08pm Fri 18 Oct 13

gingertom says...

Michael Sheen was born in newport and brought up in Port Talbot. He is a massive supporter of Wales.
He lives in LA just to be close to his daughter.
His project the passion was a fantastic for Port Talbot and it is pretty obvious the guy has not forgotten his roots.
Petty name calling of him and his success is pathetic.
Grow up!
Just be proud of the guy and his achievements to date.
Michael Sheen was born in newport and brought up in Port Talbot. He is a massive supporter of Wales. He lives in LA just to be close to his daughter. His project the passion was a fantastic for Port Talbot and it is pretty obvious the guy has not forgotten his roots. Petty name calling of him and his success is pathetic. Grow up! Just be proud of the guy and his achievements to date. gingertom
  • Score: 16

6:38pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Votefornoneoftheabove says...

KarloMarko wrote:
"The people of Newport now have two objectives to complete..." (itz official)


Turn your papers over now. Attempt both questions. No talking. Anyone found with the answers written on their wrist or ankle will be sent to Cwmbran. You have thirty minutes. Pencils ready. Good luck.
KarloMarko glad you are paying attention.

Fingers crossed you will pass. But really, thirty minutes for two simple things?

Best you get back to school kid because that's a long time for two simple objectives :-)

Keep up the negativity it's obviously what feeds you and keeps you alive, I wish I was truly that negative and boring. If it keeps you going please carry on I don't want you to keel over being upbeat and positive.

Good luck in your life I hope Newport comes to civil unrest soon for you to truly make you happy, all the best to you and your boring, negative way of life.

Oh and by the way send my regards to Bright-Godfrey when you next see them.

www.socialanxietysup
port.com I have attached a quick link to help you out.
[quote][p][bold]KarloMarko[/bold] wrote: "The people of Newport now have two objectives to complete..." (itz official) Turn your papers over now. Attempt both questions. No talking. Anyone found with the answers written on their wrist or ankle will be sent to Cwmbran. You have thirty minutes. Pencils ready. Good luck.[/p][/quote]KarloMarko glad you are paying attention. Fingers crossed you will pass. But really, thirty minutes for two simple things? Best you get back to school kid because that's a long time for two simple objectives :-) Keep up the negativity it's obviously what feeds you and keeps you alive, I wish I was truly that negative and boring. If it keeps you going please carry on I don't want you to keel over being upbeat and positive. Good luck in your life I hope Newport comes to civil unrest soon for you to truly make you happy, all the best to you and your boring, negative way of life. Oh and by the way send my regards to Bright-Godfrey when you next see them. www.socialanxietysup port.com I have attached a quick link to help you out. Votefornoneoftheabove
  • Score: 12

6:51pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

'Newport comes to civil unrest?"

Really? Like a revolution? Class against Class? Or running riot? Blood in the streets? Coppers bricked? Mass arrests?

Well, Newport on a Saturday night is halfway there. Whats not to like.
'Newport comes to civil unrest?" Really? Like a revolution? Class against Class? Or running riot? Blood in the streets? Coppers bricked? Mass arrests? Well, Newport on a Saturday night is halfway there. Whats not to like. KarloMarko
  • Score: -17

7:09pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Votefornoneoftheabove says...

KarloMarko wrote:
'Newport comes to civil unrest?"

Really? Like a revolution? Class against Class? Or running riot? Blood in the streets? Coppers bricked? Mass arrests?

Well, Newport on a Saturday night is halfway there. Whats not to like.
Ok you win I bow down to you.

Tell Bob I will pop up and see him and Godfrey on Monday morning and join your gang.

By the way can I get James Dean and Elvis's autographs please.

.
[quote][p][bold]KarloMarko[/bold] wrote: 'Newport comes to civil unrest?" Really? Like a revolution? Class against Class? Or running riot? Blood in the streets? Coppers bricked? Mass arrests? Well, Newport on a Saturday night is halfway there. Whats not to like.[/p][/quote]Ok you win I bow down to you. Tell Bob I will pop up and see him and Godfrey on Monday morning and join your gang. By the way can I get James Dean and Elvis's autographs please. . Votefornoneoftheabove
  • Score: 5

7:12pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Jimport says...

KarloMarko wrote:
'Newport comes to civil unrest?"

Really? Like a revolution? Class against Class? Or running riot? Blood in the streets? Coppers bricked? Mass arrests?

Well, Newport on a Saturday night is halfway there. Whats not to like.
And the Newport-hating cynic with nothing constructive whatsoever to offer is fully revealed.
[quote][p][bold]KarloMarko[/bold] wrote: 'Newport comes to civil unrest?" Really? Like a revolution? Class against Class? Or running riot? Blood in the streets? Coppers bricked? Mass arrests? Well, Newport on a Saturday night is halfway there. Whats not to like.[/p][/quote]And the Newport-hating cynic with nothing constructive whatsoever to offer is fully revealed. Jimport
  • Score: 12

7:37pm Fri 18 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Yes that's me.

The thing is I never learned how to do "gratitude." I am not worthy of a multi story Debenhams and a Jamie Oliver Pastapalace overlooking the Wetlands. Tell Mike Sheen I apologise for my attitude and he can have my share of the old mural slates. Take two.
Yes that's me. The thing is I never learned how to do "gratitude." I am not worthy of a multi story Debenhams and a Jamie Oliver Pastapalace overlooking the Wetlands. Tell Mike Sheen I apologise for my attitude and he can have my share of the old mural slates. Take two. KarloMarko
  • Score: -8

7:39pm Fri 18 Oct 13

LennyJohnson5 says...

This will be remembered and recalled as the ignorant act of philistines..... Newport has so little going for it at the moment and this was not only a precious piece of 'bespoke' art that actually related to the town centre itself, but was also something occasional visitors saw and remembered. It was part of Newport's DNA. The idiocy and downright ignorance of councillors should only be underestimated at our peril; if any lessons were learned from Liverpool Council demolishing the Cavern and then rebuilding it within a decade, they certainly weren't learned in Newport. One can only hope very detailed photographs were taken for a version of the mural to be permanently recreated within Newport Museum, alongside a video of it's destruction - lessons have to be learned; the history of art being destroyed against the wishes of the people is historically the act of a fascist regime.
This will be remembered and recalled as the ignorant act of philistines..... Newport has so little going for it at the moment and this was not only a precious piece of 'bespoke' art that actually related to the town centre itself, but was also something occasional visitors saw and remembered. It was part of Newport's DNA. The idiocy and downright ignorance of councillors should only be underestimated at our peril; if any lessons were learned from Liverpool Council demolishing the Cavern and then rebuilding it within a decade, they certainly weren't learned in Newport. One can only hope very detailed photographs were taken for a version of the mural to be permanently recreated within Newport Museum, alongside a video of it's destruction - lessons have to be learned; the history of art being destroyed against the wishes of the people is historically the act of a fascist regime. LennyJohnson5
  • Score: 11

8:27pm Fri 18 Oct 13

varteg1 says...

Practicing Pragmatist wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.
I agree.

Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'.

I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say.

The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever.

Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about.

And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.
To take this somewhat off track...last week a poll of just 1003 people gave a result that showed the whole 65 millions of the UK were i n support of homosexual 'marriage' A result that the homosexual communitr leapt on as vital living proof the poll accurately reflected the feelings of the populace. in their favour.,

Now you state that a petition that returned 4500 people did not as accurately reflect, if not more so, the feelings of a very much smaller population?

And to the Voice of God, (big head supreme), The purpose of public art is to create a sense of well being in the passer by, who may or may not have time to stand and ponder the innate meaning or message contained in that work.

I live some thirteen moles from Newport.and ata efry opportunity, I made it a part of my visiting routine to pass, often to stand and and look, for a few moments, at the mural.

That pleasurable short past time has now been taken away by a vandalistic council that is obviously more interested in regression than progress.

According to received in formation, I am pleased to hear that monstrosity of a clock will not be returning, if the council wanted to practice it's nihilistic proclivities it would ensure that Sims gains the benefit of that heap of scrap Maybe it will be soon joined in the furnaces by the 'wave' and that other lump of garbage outside the train station, And whilst at it, I hear the Chinese are taking a serious look at the new carbuncle at the entrance to the station.
Thankfully the scultures in Commercial Street are, at the moment, safe, although even those would probably fetch a good few Yen.
[quote][p][bold]Practicing Pragmatist[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: Amusing that I am accused of ad hominem attacks (of which there have been none) and then I am called a "dick" for expressing an opinion that differs from the hysterical group think on here. Good work chaps, this record will last forever.[/p][/quote]I agree. Why do all the people in support of keeping the mural think that everyone who dares to disagree is a 'troll' or a 'dick'. I know they are obviously infinitely more educated than me (they speak latin you know) but one of the themes of the Chartists demands was that everyone could have their say. The majority of people are happy with the way things turn out (population of Newport 141,300+ - 4,500 people signed a petition and 200 people turned up to protest) so as I am equally passionate as all the hysterical few I have read numerous posts from since this began (you know who you are) I feel it is only fair to balance the books on behalf of the other 136800 who don't feel that getting rid of a mural wiped the Chartists from the history books and living memory forever. Karlomarko is right if you want to get involved get involved in something worth fighting about. And stop acting like you are speaking on my behalf just because I live in Newport, I have my own mind and I am perfectly capable of making my own opinions and expressing them, thanks very much.[/p][/quote]To take this somewhat off track...last week a poll of just 1003 people gave a result that showed the whole 65 millions of the UK were i n support of homosexual 'marriage' A result that the homosexual communitr leapt on as vital living proof the poll accurately reflected the feelings of the populace. in their favour., Now you state that a petition that returned 4500 people did not as accurately reflect, if not more so, the feelings of a very much smaller population? And to the Voice of God, (big head supreme), The purpose of public art is to create a sense of well being in the passer by, who may or may not have time to stand and ponder the innate meaning or message contained in that work. I live some thirteen moles from Newport.and ata efry opportunity, I made it a part of my visiting routine to pass, often to stand and and look, for a few moments, at the mural. That pleasurable short past time has now been taken away by a vandalistic council that is obviously more interested in regression than progress. According to received in formation, I am pleased to hear that monstrosity of a clock will not be returning, if the council wanted to practice it's nihilistic proclivities it would ensure that Sims gains the benefit of that heap of scrap Maybe it will be soon joined in the furnaces by the 'wave' and that other lump of garbage outside the train station, And whilst at it, I hear the Chinese are taking a serious look at the new carbuncle at the entrance to the station. Thankfully the scultures in Commercial Street are, at the moment, safe, although even those would probably fetch a good few Yen. varteg1
  • Score: 3

8:36pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Stan Edwards says...

The bullet holes in the Westgate are a far better reminder than any bit cutural graffiti that no one bothered about until it was going. If it was that good why didn't some turkey List it. Better we come up with something lasting than a something placed there to tart up a drab tunnel which was part of a development which would in time be replaced by the Friars Walk monolith from 2001/2/3/4.... redevelopment space Odyssey. The mural actually had to go. It is the way that it went that was shoddy.
The bullet holes in the Westgate are a far better reminder than any bit cutural graffiti that no one bothered about until it was going. If it was that good why didn't some turkey List it. Better we come up with something lasting than a something placed there to tart up a drab tunnel which was part of a development which would in time be replaced by the Friars Walk monolith from 2001/2/3/4.... redevelopment space Odyssey. The mural actually had to go. It is the way that it went that was shoddy. Stan Edwards
  • Score: 1

9:16pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Adrian Williams says...

The pointless argument rumbles on and on and on and on and on ......Who in their right mind wants to see an empty John Frost Square and a disused car park any longer ? Nobody gave a **** about the mural a few weeks ago - you couldn't even see it properly for gawd sake ! I for one am pleased to see work starting finally. Get a life folks and move on .
The pointless argument rumbles on and on and on and on and on ......Who in their right mind wants to see an empty John Frost Square and a disused car park any longer ? Nobody gave a **** about the mural a few weeks ago - you couldn't even see it properly for gawd sake ! I for one am pleased to see work starting finally. Get a life folks and move on . Adrian Williams
  • Score: -7

10:53pm Fri 18 Oct 13

Woodgnome says...

A couple of anti's ego's on a roll. Tiresome.
A couple of anti's ego's on a roll. Tiresome. Woodgnome
  • Score: 4

8:00am Sat 19 Oct 13

Rogers48 says...

The removal of the Chartist mural has been a PR home goal for Newport City Council and they deserve all the flak they are getting for its destruction.

That said, why all the abuse being heaped on Michael Sheen, who by the way has not forgotten his Welsh heritage and has actually done much for our region - although you'd not think this given all the bile heaped on him here.

So, here's some considerations from a Monmouthshire born and bred person who's passions are not as inflamed as many others, but who still believes that the Chartist uprising needs commemorating in Newport.

As such, whats done is done - and no I do not approve how the NCC fools undertook this act of vandalism - however, and if the cost of saving the mural is correct, the bitter pill could have been made easier to swallow by the genius's on NCC making the following commitment: Instead of a mural, we, that is NCC, promise to erect a bronze statue to commemorate the Newport Chartist uprising - ideas on which leader we should cast are welcome from the public.

We also promise that this bronze statue will cost less than the actual costs associated with moving the mural - may I suggest that the statue be placed close to the Westgate Hotel - another important landmark vandalised by the incompetence of the NCC.
The removal of the Chartist mural has been a PR home goal for Newport City Council and they deserve all the flak they are getting for its destruction. That said, why all the abuse being heaped on Michael Sheen, who by the way has not forgotten his Welsh heritage and has actually done much for our region - although you'd not think this given all the bile heaped on him here. So, here's some considerations from a Monmouthshire born and bred person who's passions are not as inflamed as many others, but who still believes that the Chartist uprising needs commemorating in Newport. As such, whats done is done - and no I do not approve how the NCC fools undertook this act of vandalism - however, and if the cost of saving the mural is correct, the bitter pill could have been made easier to swallow by the genius's on NCC making the following commitment: Instead of a mural, we, that is NCC, promise to erect a bronze statue to commemorate the Newport Chartist uprising - ideas on which leader we should cast are welcome from the public. We also promise that this bronze statue will cost less than the actual costs associated with moving the mural - may I suggest that the statue be placed close to the Westgate Hotel - another important landmark vandalised by the incompetence of the NCC. Rogers48
  • Score: 4

10:29am Sat 19 Oct 13

portman says...

And now for the NEWS !
And now for the NEWS ! portman
  • Score: 1

9:25pm Sat 19 Oct 13

jiffygeorge says...

What a load of prats those people criticising Michael Sheen are. He doesn't need self publicity. His comments are, I believe, heartfelt and constructive. But I doubt enough people in Newport are listening.
What a load of prats those people criticising Michael Sheen are. He doesn't need self publicity. His comments are, I believe, heartfelt and constructive. But I doubt enough people in Newport are listening. jiffygeorge
  • Score: 5

1:56pm Sun 20 Oct 13

KarloMarko says...

Any sign of Mikey Sheen's big "I Care" cheque yet?

I know he's in LA and the exchange rate is choppy but well, we need that cash you promised Mike and Barclays open 9am prompt Monday. Yew knows it
Any sign of Mikey Sheen's big "I Care" cheque yet? I know he's in LA and the exchange rate is choppy but well, we need that cash you promised Mike and Barclays open 9am prompt Monday. Yew knows it KarloMarko
  • Score: -3

2:38pm Sun 20 Oct 13

Stevenboy says...

jiffygeorge wrote:
What a load of prats those people criticising Michael Sheen are. He doesn't need self publicity. His comments are, I believe, heartfelt and constructive. But I doubt enough people in Newport are listening.
Really? If he cared that much about us little people he'd live here. But then LA? Newport? I think I understand his choice. Don't you ever tire of these celebs who have opinions that they expect other people to live with? Bono and Geldof pontificating on poverty from their mansions? Connery on Scottish independence from the Bahamas. Not the slightest bit patronising? Fame and credibility are rare bedfellows most of the time.
[quote][p][bold]jiffygeorge[/bold] wrote: What a load of prats those people criticising Michael Sheen are. He doesn't need self publicity. His comments are, I believe, heartfelt and constructive. But I doubt enough people in Newport are listening.[/p][/quote]Really? If he cared that much about us little people he'd live here. But then LA? Newport? I think I understand his choice. Don't you ever tire of these celebs who have opinions that they expect other people to live with? Bono and Geldof pontificating on poverty from their mansions? Connery on Scottish independence from the Bahamas. Not the slightest bit patronising? Fame and credibility are rare bedfellows most of the time. Stevenboy
  • Score: 0

7:03pm Sun 20 Oct 13

bluebanana says...

The only good thing that has come from all this is that I now have a brilliant real life case study of a massive PR disaster which I can roll out to my colleagues in other parts of the country as an example of what not to do. And I won't be changing the names of those involved to spare their embarrassment!
The only good thing that has come from all this is that I now have a brilliant real life case study of a massive PR disaster which I can roll out to my colleagues in other parts of the country as an example of what not to do. And I won't be changing the names of those involved to spare their embarrassment! bluebanana
  • Score: 0

3:01pm Mon 21 Oct 13

Mackem Mick says...

Frankie Lodge must be turning in his grave - never mind the Chartists they were just his backing group
Frankie Lodge must be turning in his grave - never mind the Chartists they were just his backing group Mackem Mick
  • Score: 0

8:37pm Mon 21 Oct 13

cartoonbuddy says...

Quite ironic that the casual destruction of an artwork dedicated to the chartist movement who all risked life and limb for working class freedoms including a right to vote for over 21 s and a wage for members of Parliament, should be effected at a time when modern members of Parliament are claiming far more than a 'basic wage' ,ridiculous 'expenses' and only allow a referendums when they think it can be won to their own satisfaction. City counsellors by destroying the mural have merely reflected the general betrayal of the chartists efforts and memory by those who enjoy the benefits of their deeds. Michael Sheen makes many good points and a new artwork must replace the old if we still respect those who fought for our hard won freedoms. At the moment, if we tore down a war memorial there would be uproar. But we destroy a mural to those civilians who laid down their lives for freedom and we have mostly apathy or cynicism. Modern Britain, the future? The Chartists will be turning in their graves.
Quite ironic that the casual destruction of an artwork dedicated to the chartist movement who all risked life and limb for working class freedoms including a right to vote for over 21 s and a wage for members of Parliament, should be effected at a time when modern members of Parliament are claiming far more than a 'basic wage' ,ridiculous 'expenses' and only allow a referendums when they think it can be won to their own satisfaction. City counsellors by destroying the mural have merely reflected the general betrayal of the chartists efforts and memory by those who enjoy the benefits of their deeds. Michael Sheen makes many good points and a new artwork must replace the old if we still respect those who fought for our hard won freedoms. At the moment, if we tore down a war memorial there would be uproar. But we destroy a mural to those civilians who laid down their lives for freedom and we have mostly apathy or cynicism. Modern Britain, the future? The Chartists will be turning in their graves. cartoonbuddy
  • Score: -1

2:30pm Tue 22 Oct 13

Corda1983 says...

Vox Dei wrote:
There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is.
That's just a ridiculous thing to say. There is not a single person who lives in Newport (and probably barely a single person who has visited the place) who has not seen that mural and looked at it - many times over most likely. Unless you stood next to the mural for hours a day, weeks on end I would be less inclined to make assumptions about how much the mural was or wasn't loved.

Much like Paul Flynn, who can only seem to link the destruction of the Chartist Mural with trying to destroy Chartism (no, I don't believe that was the intention), you seem to only be able to see people's anger at the mural's destruction as false love for the mural itself.

Many people who had little time for the mural are angry because this sets a precedent for Newport's re-development and its priorities going forward that concerns many people. Whichever way you try and spin it it's clear NCC didn't really know what they were doing and just wanted the mural out of the way. The mural's destruction may have been "decided" in March 2012 - but it was decided arbitrarily without a proper evaluation of the costs of relocation or consulting the public (consultation was about what should replace the mural - there was never a consultation on the fate of the mural itself). The whole issue was buried for as long as possible and when the campaign started it was largely ignored. When public dissatisfaction began to intensify the bulldozers were called in quickly and that's where we are now.

And the reason it was destroyed? It's bizarre. Firstly we were told the mural was destroyed because the car park it's attached to is dangerous (despite that car park sitting on top of the still open bus station). Then, truly bizarrely, Will Godfrey suggests the mural was demolished separately because it wasn't included in the demolition of the car park as it was at the time being considered for listing by Cadw. How does that make sense!? Were they afraid the rest of the site would have been demolished and the mural left conveniently standing? That would have been a good start in relocating it!

Vox Dei, the point you're missing is that people are angry because the Council (or senior individuals within) have handled the situation with staggering ineptitude and that concerns people. We're all rational and pragmatic enough to realise this isn't that everybody is sat weeping over the loss of their beloved artwork - many people who are angry didn't have much time for the mural itself. They just don't like being treated with vague disdain by their Council and want to be involved in the regeneration of their city and not simply told it's going to happen.

Oh, and, of course, we have no idea what's coming. All we know is a retail complex called Friars Walk is supposed to be going up some time in the next 2 years. But, I knew that 5 years ago too...
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: There was demonstrably little affection for the thing though, even when its fate was sealed years ago. There were never throngs of people gazing wistfully at it, but now people are claiming that they always loved it. If that is not complaining for complaining's sake I do not know what is.[/p][/quote]That's just a ridiculous thing to say. There is not a single person who lives in Newport (and probably barely a single person who has visited the place) who has not seen that mural and looked at it - many times over most likely. Unless you stood next to the mural for hours a day, weeks on end I would be less inclined to make assumptions about how much the mural was or wasn't loved. Much like Paul Flynn, who can only seem to link the destruction of the Chartist Mural with trying to destroy Chartism (no, I don't believe that was the intention), you seem to only be able to see people's anger at the mural's destruction as false love for the mural itself. Many people who had little time for the mural are angry because this sets a precedent for Newport's re-development and its priorities going forward that concerns many people. Whichever way you try and spin it it's clear NCC didn't really know what they were doing and just wanted the mural out of the way. The mural's destruction may have been "decided" in March 2012 - but it was decided arbitrarily without a proper evaluation of the costs of relocation or consulting the public (consultation was about what should replace the mural - there was never a consultation on the fate of the mural itself). The whole issue was buried for as long as possible and when the campaign started it was largely ignored. When public dissatisfaction began to intensify the bulldozers were called in quickly and that's where we are now. And the reason it was destroyed? It's bizarre. Firstly we were told the mural was destroyed because the car park it's attached to is dangerous (despite that car park sitting on top of the still open bus station). Then, truly bizarrely, Will Godfrey suggests the mural was demolished separately because it wasn't included in the demolition of the car park as it was at the time being considered for listing by Cadw. How does that make sense!? Were they afraid the rest of the site would have been demolished and the mural left conveniently standing? That would have been a good start in relocating it! Vox Dei, the point you're missing is that people are angry because the Council (or senior individuals within) have handled the situation with staggering ineptitude and that concerns people. We're all rational and pragmatic enough to realise this isn't that everybody is sat weeping over the loss of their beloved artwork - many people who are angry didn't have much time for the mural itself. They just don't like being treated with vague disdain by their Council and want to be involved in the regeneration of their city and not simply told it's going to happen. Oh, and, of course, we have no idea what's coming. All we know is a retail complex called Friars Walk is supposed to be going up some time in the next 2 years. But, I knew that 5 years ago too... Corda1983
  • Score: 1

3:09pm Wed 23 Oct 13

JAB231 says...

I think most of you are missing the point here. It's not about how much we 'visited' the mural, the mural stands to represent the 'Newport rising'. The chartism movement was about fighting for rights, yet this mural was destroyed without the publics consent? isn't it ironic? It was the authority that they were fighting and it was the authority that saw fit to destroy a piece of history.
This truly shows us how little control and influence we have within our city, the council should send out an apology and a new one should be erected.
I think most of you are missing the point here. It's not about how much we 'visited' the mural, the mural stands to represent the 'Newport rising'. The chartism movement was about fighting for rights, yet this mural was destroyed without the publics consent? isn't it ironic? It was the authority that they were fighting and it was the authority that saw fit to destroy a piece of history. This truly shows us how little control and influence we have within our city, the council should send out an apology and a new one should be erected. JAB231
  • Score: 0

Comments are closed on this article.

Send us your news, pictures and videos

Most read stories

Local Info

Enter your postcode, town or place name

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree