Overwhelming majority vote against Y Farteg name change

South Wales Argus: Overwhelming majority vote against Y Farteg name change Overwhelming majority vote against Y Farteg name change

AN OVERWHELMING majority of people have voted against the proposed name change of Varteg to Y Farteg.

Of the 22 people who responded to an online consultation launched last month, 64 per cent said they “disagreed” with the idea.

The percentage of people for it was 32 per cent.

A mere five per cent said they agreed Farteg should be used, the Torfaen County Borough Council website said.

Torfaen councillor Richard Clark, the local authority cabinet member health, social care, wellbeing and equalities, said the idea would scrapped.

“The people have spoken and I have listened to them," he said. "The language commissioner has been told that we will not be accepting the name with an F and as far as Torfaen is concerned is will be staying as it is.”

Richie Rowlinson, landlord of The Crown Hotel in Varteg who previously called it a ‘stupid idea’, said: “The people have made their opinion quite clear.”

The consultation was re-launched after an initial proposal earlier this year.

It sparked widespread humour and concern at the time, and such was the stink that news outlets as far away as Canada and Minnesota in America picked up on it.

Nationals from The Daily Mail to the New York Daily News also jumped on the bandwagon.

Abersychan ward councillor Giles Davies presented a petition signed by around 120 Varteg residents to the full council Christmas meeting of Torfaen County Borough Council, to make clear their position had not changed on the proposal.

Speaking at the meeting he said: “While supportive of the Welsh language generally, in this particular case when you consider the many years the Welsh version of the name has not been used it is redundant locally.

“Residents feel introducing it would create unfortunate opportunities for immature ridicule.”

Locals previously said they fear becoming the butt of jokes if the change was approved, with many adamant that the ancient name Varteg accurately reflects the history of the locality.

Others said they did not feel the change would represent money well spent in times of biting austerity across the borough.

Comments (17)

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4:51pm Tue 31 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

'Others said they did not feel the change would represent money well spent in times of biting austerity across the borough.'

Notice that it was lay people who said that and not the petty officials who think that throwing hard-earned public money at stupid notions is entirely ok. And one of them is on £104K a year.
'Others said they did not feel the change would represent money well spent in times of biting austerity across the borough.' Notice that it was lay people who said that and not the petty officials who think that throwing hard-earned public money at stupid notions is entirely ok. And one of them is on £104K a year. Llanmartinangel

4:57pm Tue 31 Dec 13

Mr Bump. says...

Now lets all have a vote on if we should should keep having Welsh forced on us, or if it should be optional. I'm sick and tired of it to be honest, and am also a little peeved that my kids could have been learning worthwhile subjects instead of this nonsense.
Now lets all have a vote on if we should should keep having Welsh forced on us, or if it should be optional. I'm sick and tired of it to be honest, and am also a little peeved that my kids could have been learning worthwhile subjects instead of this nonsense. Mr Bump.

5:17pm Tue 31 Dec 13

varteg1 says...

Can we be assured they will now get the hell out of Torfaen with their name changing agenda, or are we to now get a rash of street name changes?

A sort of compensatory measure to smooth the ruffled feathers of Cymdaithas?

They can stay out of my street whatever.
Can we be assured they will now get the hell out of Torfaen with their name changing agenda, or are we to now get a rash of street name changes? A sort of compensatory measure to smooth the ruffled feathers of Cymdaithas? They can stay out of my street whatever. varteg1

5:42pm Tue 31 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

Mr Bump. wrote:
Now lets all have a vote on if we should should keep having Welsh forced on us, or if it should be optional. I'm sick and tired of it to be honest, and am also a little peeved that my kids could have been learning worthwhile subjects instead of this nonsense.
In your dreams. The Welsh language gestapo would be overwhelmingly crushed if you publicised just how much it costs and what is being denied funding to pay for it. But it's a growth industry for a some blood-sucking people making a handsome living from it (like Meri Hughes). Turkeys will never allow a vote for a second Christmas.
[quote][p][bold]Mr Bump.[/bold] wrote: Now lets all have a vote on if we should should keep having Welsh forced on us, or if it should be optional. I'm sick and tired of it to be honest, and am also a little peeved that my kids could have been learning worthwhile subjects instead of this nonsense.[/p][/quote]In your dreams. The Welsh language gestapo would be overwhelmingly crushed if you publicised just how much it costs and what is being denied funding to pay for it. But it's a growth industry for a some blood-sucking people making a handsome living from it (like Meri Hughes). Turkeys will never allow a vote for a second Christmas. Llanmartinangel

1:18pm Wed 1 Jan 14

Woodgnome says...

There was no popular groundswell for a name change. The silly idea was simply imposed. Disgraceful.
There was no popular groundswell for a name change. The silly idea was simply imposed. Disgraceful. Woodgnome

3:42pm Wed 1 Jan 14

Torfaenwr says...

For the record, this came from the very sensible national policy change by Welsh councils to omit the anglicised form of a place name where it's very similar to the Welsh form anyway, and not from any campaigners. Welsh speakers obviously support this, along with everyone else rational in Wales and beyond. The people of the village don't object to the general principle, only the unfortunate sound of the original Welsh name to an English ear in this particular case.
How typical for this to be twisted to make it appear Welsh speakers are somehow being unreasonable.

Also for the record, Welsh is a very worthwhile and useful language here in Wales - and I use it all the time In Torfaen and the neighbouring counties with some of the 130,000 others that speak it here. We Welsh speakers do exist and are around you all the time, paying our taxes and going about our business (we don't look any different you know!). What right have you to snub our language, the local language of our ancestors, and tell us it should go away?

It's unfortunate that your schooling and upbringing denied you access to our Welsh language culture and heritage, and I invite you to find out more and take more pride in it, but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you. That's no reason to deny the next generation a basic appreciation of who they are and where they're from though, is it?

Welsh isn't going away now, by the way: thankfully the tide turned long ago. Were it not for the influx of incomers into Wales, which is unlikely to continue the same, the %age of Welsh speakers would have gone up massively in the last census. The dinosaur attitudes of the other commenters here are out of date and out of order.
(as well as against the site rules prohibiting posts that are false, abusive or malicious)
For the record, this came from the very sensible national policy change by Welsh councils to omit the anglicised form of a place name where it's very similar to the Welsh form anyway, and not from any campaigners. Welsh speakers obviously support this, along with everyone else rational in Wales and beyond. The people of the village don't object to the general principle, only the unfortunate sound of the original Welsh name to an English ear in this particular case. How typical for this to be twisted to make it appear Welsh speakers are somehow being unreasonable. Also for the record, Welsh is a very worthwhile and useful language here in Wales - and I use it all the time In Torfaen and the neighbouring counties with some of the 130,000 others that speak it here. We Welsh speakers do exist and are around you all the time, paying our taxes and going about our business (we don't look any different you know!). What right have you to snub our language, the local language of our ancestors, and tell us it should go away? It's unfortunate that your schooling and upbringing denied you access to our Welsh language culture and heritage, and I invite you to find out more and take more pride in it, but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you. That's no reason to deny the next generation a basic appreciation of who they are and where they're from though, is it? Welsh isn't going away now, by the way: thankfully the tide turned long ago. Were it not for the influx of incomers into Wales, which is unlikely to continue the same, the %age of Welsh speakers would have gone up massively in the last census. The dinosaur attitudes of the other commenters here are out of date and out of order. (as well as against the site rules prohibiting posts that are false, abusive or malicious) Torfaenwr

4:21pm Wed 1 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Torfaenwr wrote:
For the record, this came from the very sensible national policy change by Welsh councils to omit the anglicised form of a place name where it's very similar to the Welsh form anyway, and not from any campaigners. Welsh speakers obviously support this, along with everyone else rational in Wales and beyond. The people of the village don't object to the general principle, only the unfortunate sound of the original Welsh name to an English ear in this particular case.
How typical for this to be twisted to make it appear Welsh speakers are somehow being unreasonable.

Also for the record, Welsh is a very worthwhile and useful language here in Wales - and I use it all the time In Torfaen and the neighbouring counties with some of the 130,000 others that speak it here. We Welsh speakers do exist and are around you all the time, paying our taxes and going about our business (we don't look any different you know!). What right have you to snub our language, the local language of our ancestors, and tell us it should go away?

It's unfortunate that your schooling and upbringing denied you access to our Welsh language culture and heritage, and I invite you to find out more and take more pride in it, but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you. That's no reason to deny the next generation a basic appreciation of who they are and where they're from though, is it?

Welsh isn't going away now, by the way: thankfully the tide turned long ago. Were it not for the influx of incomers into Wales, which is unlikely to continue the same, the %age of Welsh speakers would have gone up massively in the last census. The dinosaur attitudes of the other commenters here are out of date and out of order.
(as well as against the site rules prohibiting posts that are false, abusive or malicious)
'but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you'

So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't?
[quote][p][bold]Torfaenwr[/bold] wrote: For the record, this came from the very sensible national policy change by Welsh councils to omit the anglicised form of a place name where it's very similar to the Welsh form anyway, and not from any campaigners. Welsh speakers obviously support this, along with everyone else rational in Wales and beyond. The people of the village don't object to the general principle, only the unfortunate sound of the original Welsh name to an English ear in this particular case. How typical for this to be twisted to make it appear Welsh speakers are somehow being unreasonable. Also for the record, Welsh is a very worthwhile and useful language here in Wales - and I use it all the time In Torfaen and the neighbouring counties with some of the 130,000 others that speak it here. We Welsh speakers do exist and are around you all the time, paying our taxes and going about our business (we don't look any different you know!). What right have you to snub our language, the local language of our ancestors, and tell us it should go away? It's unfortunate that your schooling and upbringing denied you access to our Welsh language culture and heritage, and I invite you to find out more and take more pride in it, but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you. That's no reason to deny the next generation a basic appreciation of who they are and where they're from though, is it? Welsh isn't going away now, by the way: thankfully the tide turned long ago. Were it not for the influx of incomers into Wales, which is unlikely to continue the same, the %age of Welsh speakers would have gone up massively in the last census. The dinosaur attitudes of the other commenters here are out of date and out of order. (as well as against the site rules prohibiting posts that are false, abusive or malicious)[/p][/quote]'but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you' So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't? Llanmartinangel

5:52pm Wed 1 Jan 14

Torfaenwr says...

Llanmartinangel wrote: So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't?


For the same reason that science is compulsory despite religious parents who oppose evolution. Because it's our country's language and heritage, and all our children should gain access to it, even if their parents don't understand why. Kids complain about having to learn maths too - should we stop that too?

It makes me sad you reject Welsh so strongly for yourself, but outraged that you would deny it to our kids, and seem to want to stifle it completely. I know what a wonderful language and culture you're missing out on. If you're Welsh then it's your heritage too. Why not learn a bit more about it? You might be surprised.

Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncle tomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true (we now know bilinguals enjoy many benefits), and people chose to withhold Welsh from their kids, and schools punished kids for using it.
Those days are long gone, and since the 60s we are proud and now enjoy hard won rights to fair treatment, and since the brakes have been taken off, Welsh is flourishing, so we're not going anywhere. Why not join in, instead of knocking it?
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't?[/p][/quote] For the same reason that science is compulsory despite religious parents who oppose evolution. Because it's our country's language and heritage, and all our children should gain access to it, even if their parents don't understand why. Kids complain about having to learn maths too - should we stop that too? It makes me sad you reject Welsh so strongly for yourself, but outraged that you would deny it to our kids, and seem to want to stifle it completely. I know what a wonderful language and culture you're missing out on. If you're Welsh then it's your heritage too. Why not learn a bit more about it? You might be surprised. Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncle tomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true (we now know bilinguals enjoy many benefits), and people chose to withhold Welsh from their kids, and schools punished kids for using it. Those days are long gone, and since the 60s we are proud and now enjoy hard won rights to fair treatment, and since the brakes have been taken off, Welsh is flourishing, so we're not going anywhere. Why not join in, instead of knocking it? Torfaenwr

8:23pm Wed 1 Jan 14

mal92 says...

Da iawn Torfaenwr, at last, someone who talks sense.
Da iawn Torfaenwr, at last, someone who talks sense. mal92

9:23pm Wed 1 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Torfaenwr wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote: So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't?


For the same reason that science is compulsory despite religious parents who oppose evolution. Because it's our country's language and heritage, and all our children should gain access to it, even if their parents don't understand why. Kids complain about having to learn maths too - should we stop that too?

It makes me sad you reject Welsh so strongly for yourself, but outraged that you would deny it to our kids, and seem to want to stifle it completely. I know what a wonderful language and culture you're missing out on. If you're Welsh then it's your heritage too. Why not learn a bit more about it? You might be surprised.

Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncle tomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true (we now know bilinguals enjoy many benefits), and people chose to withhold Welsh from their kids, and schools punished kids for using it.
Those days are long gone, and since the 60s we are proud and now enjoy hard won rights to fair treatment, and since the brakes have been taken off, Welsh is flourishing, so we're not going anywhere. Why not join in, instead of knocking it?
Anyone who thinks you can attach the same importance to Welsh as maths and science is plainly missing some brain cells. Maths and science equip you for hundreds of professions all over the world. The market for medieval local tongues is minuscule and dependent entirely on public funding.
[quote][p][bold]Torfaenwr[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't?[/p][/quote] For the same reason that science is compulsory despite religious parents who oppose evolution. Because it's our country's language and heritage, and all our children should gain access to it, even if their parents don't understand why. Kids complain about having to learn maths too - should we stop that too? It makes me sad you reject Welsh so strongly for yourself, but outraged that you would deny it to our kids, and seem to want to stifle it completely. I know what a wonderful language and culture you're missing out on. If you're Welsh then it's your heritage too. Why not learn a bit more about it? You might be surprised. Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncle tomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true (we now know bilinguals enjoy many benefits), and people chose to withhold Welsh from their kids, and schools punished kids for using it. Those days are long gone, and since the 60s we are proud and now enjoy hard won rights to fair treatment, and since the brakes have been taken off, Welsh is flourishing, so we're not going anywhere. Why not join in, instead of knocking it?[/p][/quote]Anyone who thinks you can attach the same importance to Welsh as maths and science is plainly missing some brain cells. Maths and science equip you for hundreds of professions all over the world. The market for medieval local tongues is minuscule and dependent entirely on public funding. Llanmartinangel

7:53am Thu 2 Jan 14

Woodgnome says...

Torfaenwr wrote:
For the record, this came from the very sensible national policy change by Welsh councils to omit the anglicised form of a place name where it's very similar to the Welsh form anyway, and not from any campaigners. Welsh speakers obviously support this, along with everyone else rational in Wales and beyond. The people of the village don't object to the general principle, only the unfortunate sound of the original Welsh name to an English ear in this particular case.
How typical for this to be twisted to make it appear Welsh speakers are somehow being unreasonable.

Also for the record, Welsh is a very worthwhile and useful language here in Wales - and I use it all the time In Torfaen and the neighbouring counties with some of the 130,000 others that speak it here. We Welsh speakers do exist and are around you all the time, paying our taxes and going about our business (we don't look any different you know!). What right have you to snub our language, the local language of our ancestors, and tell us it should go away?

It's unfortunate that your schooling and upbringing denied you access to our Welsh language culture and heritage, and I invite you to find out more and take more pride in it, but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you. That's no reason to deny the next generation a basic appreciation of who they are and where they're from though, is it?

Welsh isn't going away now, by the way: thankfully the tide turned long ago. Were it not for the influx of incomers into Wales, which is unlikely to continue the same, the %age of Welsh speakers would have gone up massively in the last census. The dinosaur attitudes of the other commenters here are out of date and out of order.
(as well as against the site rules prohibiting posts that are false, abusive or malicious)
Names and spellings for all sorts of things in all languages mutate over time by common usage. Shall we go back to Viking, Roman names in England? Even people who's ancestors couldn't write now have different spellings for the same name - no reason for them to change to the proper Welsh name e.g. Evans, Heaven etc.
Y Farteg tosh is what gets people's backs up and is counter productive to those who want to promote Welsh.
[quote][p][bold]Torfaenwr[/bold] wrote: For the record, this came from the very sensible national policy change by Welsh councils to omit the anglicised form of a place name where it's very similar to the Welsh form anyway, and not from any campaigners. Welsh speakers obviously support this, along with everyone else rational in Wales and beyond. The people of the village don't object to the general principle, only the unfortunate sound of the original Welsh name to an English ear in this particular case. How typical for this to be twisted to make it appear Welsh speakers are somehow being unreasonable. Also for the record, Welsh is a very worthwhile and useful language here in Wales - and I use it all the time In Torfaen and the neighbouring counties with some of the 130,000 others that speak it here. We Welsh speakers do exist and are around you all the time, paying our taxes and going about our business (we don't look any different you know!). What right have you to snub our language, the local language of our ancestors, and tell us it should go away? It's unfortunate that your schooling and upbringing denied you access to our Welsh language culture and heritage, and I invite you to find out more and take more pride in it, but if you don't want to that's fine, nobody's going to make you. That's no reason to deny the next generation a basic appreciation of who they are and where they're from though, is it? Welsh isn't going away now, by the way: thankfully the tide turned long ago. Were it not for the influx of incomers into Wales, which is unlikely to continue the same, the %age of Welsh speakers would have gone up massively in the last census. The dinosaur attitudes of the other commenters here are out of date and out of order. (as well as against the site rules prohibiting posts that are false, abusive or malicious)[/p][/quote]Names and spellings for all sorts of things in all languages mutate over time by common usage. Shall we go back to Viking, Roman names in England? Even people who's ancestors couldn't write now have different spellings for the same name - no reason for them to change to the proper Welsh name e.g. Evans, Heaven etc. Y Farteg tosh is what gets people's backs up and is counter productive to those who want to promote Welsh. Woodgnome

10:00am Thu 2 Jan 14

varteg1 says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Torfaenwr wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote: So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't?


For the same reason that science is compulsory despite religious parents who oppose evolution. Because it's our country's language and heritage, and all our children should gain access to it, even if their parents don't understand why. Kids complain about having to learn maths too - should we stop that too?

It makes me sad you reject Welsh so strongly for yourself, but outraged that you would deny it to our kids, and seem to want to stifle it completely. I know what a wonderful language and culture you're missing out on. If you're Welsh then it's your heritage too. Why not learn a bit more about it? You might be surprised.

Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncle tomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true (we now know bilinguals enjoy many benefits), and people chose to withhold Welsh from their kids, and schools punished kids for using it.
Those days are long gone, and since the 60s we are proud and now enjoy hard won rights to fair treatment, and since the brakes have been taken off, Welsh is flourishing, so we're not going anywhere. Why not join in, instead of knocking it?
Anyone who thinks you can attach the same importance to Welsh as maths and science is plainly missing some brain cells. Maths and science equip you for hundreds of professions all over the world. The market for medieval local tongues is minuscule and dependent entirely on public funding.
quoted.....

"....You might be surprised. Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncletomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true.....!"

I seriously doubt that Cymraeg was widely spoken, at least not in the way you imply.

A century ago it was the Welsh themselves that was culling it from common usage, as they had concluded that to encourage and ensure a decent future in an ever increasing industrialised and commercial world that used English, so should their kids leave behind the language they themselves had been used to in their isolated Wales.
Then comes along the control freaks attempting to turn back the clock.as they stole public funds from the whole of Britain in order to promote and force feed the old language back onto the menu of life here in Wales.

If the language is so useful, I would liked some evidence of how it is useful.

Building a Cymro empire may sound a sensible idea, that is until all the heart has been eaten from the Welsh establishment by employing Cymraeg speakers, what then the fate of all those who have been encouraged or even forced to become bilingual, all those living under the impression the language will be a value and use to them,that will provide for them, when patently it cannot, when they discover they have been sold a pup.

By all means learn it, teach it, find some use for it, but NOT at the expense of both educational time, teachers involvement and taxpayers (across the whole UK) money.

Wales alone cannot internally find the amounts being used to fund it, so it should be funded by those that are promoting it.

But I wonder how much Cymdaithas would have to hand for that .

Just another leech on our paypacket.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Torfaenwr[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: So why is it a compulsory subject in schools even for the children of parents like me who would prefer it wasn't?[/p][/quote] For the same reason that science is compulsory despite religious parents who oppose evolution. Because it's our country's language and heritage, and all our children should gain access to it, even if their parents don't understand why. Kids complain about having to learn maths too - should we stop that too? It makes me sad you reject Welsh so strongly for yourself, but outraged that you would deny it to our kids, and seem to want to stifle it completely. I know what a wonderful language and culture you're missing out on. If you're Welsh then it's your heritage too. Why not learn a bit more about it? You might be surprised. Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncle tomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true (we now know bilinguals enjoy many benefits), and people chose to withhold Welsh from their kids, and schools punished kids for using it. Those days are long gone, and since the 60s we are proud and now enjoy hard won rights to fair treatment, and since the brakes have been taken off, Welsh is flourishing, so we're not going anywhere. Why not join in, instead of knocking it?[/p][/quote]Anyone who thinks you can attach the same importance to Welsh as maths and science is plainly missing some brain cells. Maths and science equip you for hundreds of professions all over the world. The market for medieval local tongues is minuscule and dependent entirely on public funding.[/p][/quote]quoted..... "....You might be surprised. Welsh was the majority language here little more than 100 years ago, but uncletomism and false colonial propaganda somehow managed to instill the notion that Welsh somehow holds you back, when actually the reverse is true.....!" I seriously doubt that Cymraeg was widely spoken, at least not in the way you imply. A century ago it was the Welsh themselves that was culling it from common usage, as they had concluded that to encourage and ensure a decent future in an ever increasing industrialised and commercial world that used English, so should their kids leave behind the language they themselves had been used to in their isolated Wales. Then comes along the control freaks attempting to turn back the clock.as they stole public funds from the whole of Britain in order to promote and force feed the old language back onto the menu of life here in Wales. If the language is so useful, I would liked some evidence of how it is useful. Building a Cymro empire may sound a sensible idea, that is until all the heart has been eaten from the Welsh establishment by employing Cymraeg speakers, what then the fate of all those who have been encouraged or even forced to become bilingual, all those living under the impression the language will be a value and use to them,that will provide for them, when patently it cannot, when they discover they have been sold a pup. By all means learn it, teach it, find some use for it, but NOT at the expense of both educational time, teachers involvement and taxpayers (across the whole UK) money. Wales alone cannot internally find the amounts being used to fund it, so it should be funded by those that are promoting it. But I wonder how much Cymdaithas would have to hand for that . Just another leech on our paypacket. varteg1

12:14pm Thu 2 Jan 14

mai_b23 says...

Why are all the anti-welsh so focused on 'Welsh not being useful'?
How is speaking another language/ learning about your own culture considered not useful??

Whether it's useful in a money making sense is irrelevant. Having that extra language increases your brain's capacity to learn all sorts of other things.

And you cannot simply say it is being forced upon our kids in schools. Isn't every subject? If I actually had a choice in the matter (as you clearly seem to think you have the right to choose school subjects ), as a teenager I probably would have demanded that all subjects be scrapped and ask that I could get drunk and high with all of my friends. Not realistic. x
Why are all the anti-welsh so focused on 'Welsh not being useful'? How is speaking another language/ learning about your own culture considered not useful?? Whether it's useful in a money making sense is irrelevant. Having that extra language increases your brain's capacity to learn all sorts of other things. And you cannot simply say it is being forced upon our kids in schools. Isn't every subject? If I actually had a choice in the matter (as you clearly seem to think you have the right to choose school subjects ), as a teenager I probably would have demanded that all subjects be scrapped and ask that I could get drunk and high with all of my friends. Not realistic. x mai_b23

3:22pm Thu 2 Jan 14

Torfaenwr says...

Dear me Llanmartinangel - no need to be abusive about it! Happy New Year to you too!

Maths and science are obviously of key importance - my point is that you don't stop teaching something valuable just because some people have an unreasonable prejudice against it.

To suggest Welsh is worthless simply because there's less of a 'market' to make money from it internationally completely misses the point - it's like saying your friends and relatives are only valuable insofar as you can profit from them. Denmark, Finland, and countless other thriving nations have a language prevalent only in their country - none of them values it in such soulless terms and neither should we. I and my family find it very useful, all the time. Besides, what on earth qualifies you who avoid it to sit in judgement of it's value?

Welsh is no more 'historic' than English or any other modern living language in daily use in the modern world. You're right though, it's been here a long time, through Romans, Anglo Saxons, Normans, and the English and is here to stay.

It isn't 'dependant' on funding either - the issue is freedom and fair treatment for those of us who use and love it.

You speak as if you personally have to subsidise us - how patronisingly self-obsessed! The significant Welsh speaking population of Wales pays its dues just like you, and are entitled to freedom of expression and fairness and support for our way of life in return, the same as you are. It's better than it was 30 years ago, but Labour haven't delivered for us at all - spending decisions are still a world away from equitable, despite your one-sided anecdotal opinions.

The Y Farteg signage story is a prime example of what the authorities do deliver - a pretty insignificant sideshow to distract from far more important issues, and give anti-Welsh trolls another opportunity to paint Welsh speakers as unreasonable.

All we want is to be considered properly as a normal, mainstream part of Welsh life, not disrespected and disadvantaged and told we're insignificant, and don't count, or even exist! (as happens right here in Argus comments). That's not really so much to ask for in our own homeland now, is it?

The evidence actually is that the great majority of people support Welsh, even if they don't speak it, despite the distorted propaganda spouted by the anti-Welsh brigade. Look, this is Wales - we're not going away and why should we? If you really want to avoid Welsh entirely, there's a huge country a short drive east over the bridge that's probably a much better bet.
Dear me Llanmartinangel - no need to be abusive about it! Happy New Year to you too! Maths and science are obviously of key importance - my point is that you don't stop teaching something valuable just because some people have an unreasonable prejudice against it. To suggest Welsh is worthless simply because there's less of a 'market' to make money from it internationally completely misses the point - it's like saying your friends and relatives are only valuable insofar as you can profit from them. Denmark, Finland, and countless other thriving nations have a language prevalent only in their country - none of them values it in such soulless terms and neither should we. I and my family find it very useful, all the time. Besides, what on earth qualifies you who avoid it to sit in judgement of it's value? Welsh is no more 'historic' than English or any other modern living language in daily use in the modern world. You're right though, it's been here a long time, through Romans, Anglo Saxons, Normans, and the English and is here to stay. It isn't 'dependant' on funding either - the issue is freedom and fair treatment for those of us who use and love it. You speak as if you personally have to subsidise us - how patronisingly self-obsessed! The significant Welsh speaking population of Wales pays its dues just like you, and are entitled to freedom of expression and fairness and support for our way of life in return, the same as you are. It's better than it was 30 years ago, but Labour haven't delivered for us at all - spending decisions are still a world away from equitable, despite your one-sided anecdotal opinions. The Y Farteg signage story is a prime example of what the authorities do deliver - a pretty insignificant sideshow to distract from far more important issues, and give anti-Welsh trolls another opportunity to paint Welsh speakers as unreasonable. All we want is to be considered properly as a normal, mainstream part of Welsh life, not disrespected and disadvantaged and told we're insignificant, and don't count, or even exist! (as happens right here in Argus comments). That's not really so much to ask for in our own homeland now, is it? The evidence actually is that the great majority of people support Welsh, even if they don't speak it, despite the distorted propaganda spouted by the anti-Welsh brigade. Look, this is Wales - we're not going away and why should we? If you really want to avoid Welsh entirely, there's a huge country a short drive east over the bridge that's probably a much better bet. Torfaenwr

4:23pm Thu 2 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Torfaenwr wrote:
Dear me Llanmartinangel - no need to be abusive about it! Happy New Year to you too!

Maths and science are obviously of key importance - my point is that you don't stop teaching something valuable just because some people have an unreasonable prejudice against it.

To suggest Welsh is worthless simply because there's less of a 'market' to make money from it internationally completely misses the point - it's like saying your friends and relatives are only valuable insofar as you can profit from them. Denmark, Finland, and countless other thriving nations have a language prevalent only in their country - none of them values it in such soulless terms and neither should we. I and my family find it very useful, all the time. Besides, what on earth qualifies you who avoid it to sit in judgement of it's value?

Welsh is no more 'historic' than English or any other modern living language in daily use in the modern world. You're right though, it's been here a long time, through Romans, Anglo Saxons, Normans, and the English and is here to stay.

It isn't 'dependant' on funding either - the issue is freedom and fair treatment for those of us who use and love it.

You speak as if you personally have to subsidise us - how patronisingly self-obsessed! The significant Welsh speaking population of Wales pays its dues just like you, and are entitled to freedom of expression and fairness and support for our way of life in return, the same as you are. It's better than it was 30 years ago, but Labour haven't delivered for us at all - spending decisions are still a world away from equitable, despite your one-sided anecdotal opinions.

The Y Farteg signage story is a prime example of what the authorities do deliver - a pretty insignificant sideshow to distract from far more important issues, and give anti-Welsh trolls another opportunity to paint Welsh speakers as unreasonable.

All we want is to be considered properly as a normal, mainstream part of Welsh life, not disrespected and disadvantaged and told we're insignificant, and don't count, or even exist! (as happens right here in Argus comments). That's not really so much to ask for in our own homeland now, is it?

The evidence actually is that the great majority of people support Welsh, even if they don't speak it, despite the distorted propaganda spouted by the anti-Welsh brigade. Look, this is Wales - we're not going away and why should we? If you really want to avoid Welsh entirely, there's a huge country a short drive east over the bridge that's probably a much better bet.
I wondered when the 'go and live in England' jibe would appear as though my being born and brought up here (and paying my taxes here all my adult life) doesn't entitle me to a contrary opinion.

I didn't say it was 'worthless', I question (a) the compulsion (b) the extraordinary amounts spent on it which, since Wales is in permanent deficit comes from England and, for S4C, the National licence fee and © the tautological irony that people like you espouse how alive the language is and yet you need huge amounts of public money and a Welsh government department to constantly increase spending on it because it's dying anyway. The SWA headline today is of people dipping into their savings to pay for operations for fear of dying from the wait. Yet people like you can seemingly afford to obsess about place names, road signs, dual documentation etc. The ultimate irony that Wales banned carrier bags yet duplicates every single official document, creating hundreds of tons of waste knowing that everyone could manage with one seems lost on the Welsh gestapo. And finally, on the culture question, leaving aside that a lot of it is invented (people never did wear stove-pipe hats nor walk around in silk bedlinen with crowns of leaves reciting poetry), it is irrelevant to the very large number of people who migrated here so why force it on their kids? Mine get so many hours in school, I'd prefer that time was spent on something useful.
[quote][p][bold]Torfaenwr[/bold] wrote: Dear me Llanmartinangel - no need to be abusive about it! Happy New Year to you too! Maths and science are obviously of key importance - my point is that you don't stop teaching something valuable just because some people have an unreasonable prejudice against it. To suggest Welsh is worthless simply because there's less of a 'market' to make money from it internationally completely misses the point - it's like saying your friends and relatives are only valuable insofar as you can profit from them. Denmark, Finland, and countless other thriving nations have a language prevalent only in their country - none of them values it in such soulless terms and neither should we. I and my family find it very useful, all the time. Besides, what on earth qualifies you who avoid it to sit in judgement of it's value? Welsh is no more 'historic' than English or any other modern living language in daily use in the modern world. You're right though, it's been here a long time, through Romans, Anglo Saxons, Normans, and the English and is here to stay. It isn't 'dependant' on funding either - the issue is freedom and fair treatment for those of us who use and love it. You speak as if you personally have to subsidise us - how patronisingly self-obsessed! The significant Welsh speaking population of Wales pays its dues just like you, and are entitled to freedom of expression and fairness and support for our way of life in return, the same as you are. It's better than it was 30 years ago, but Labour haven't delivered for us at all - spending decisions are still a world away from equitable, despite your one-sided anecdotal opinions. The Y Farteg signage story is a prime example of what the authorities do deliver - a pretty insignificant sideshow to distract from far more important issues, and give anti-Welsh trolls another opportunity to paint Welsh speakers as unreasonable. All we want is to be considered properly as a normal, mainstream part of Welsh life, not disrespected and disadvantaged and told we're insignificant, and don't count, or even exist! (as happens right here in Argus comments). That's not really so much to ask for in our own homeland now, is it? The evidence actually is that the great majority of people support Welsh, even if they don't speak it, despite the distorted propaganda spouted by the anti-Welsh brigade. Look, this is Wales - we're not going away and why should we? If you really want to avoid Welsh entirely, there's a huge country a short drive east over the bridge that's probably a much better bet.[/p][/quote]I wondered when the 'go and live in England' jibe would appear as though my being born and brought up here (and paying my taxes here all my adult life) doesn't entitle me to a contrary opinion. I didn't say it was 'worthless', I question (a) the compulsion (b) the extraordinary amounts spent on it which, since Wales is in permanent deficit comes from England and, for S4C, the National licence fee and © the tautological irony that people like you espouse how alive the language is and yet you need huge amounts of public money and a Welsh government department to constantly increase spending on it because it's dying anyway. The SWA headline today is of people dipping into their savings to pay for operations for fear of dying from the wait. Yet people like you can seemingly afford to obsess about place names, road signs, dual documentation etc. The ultimate irony that Wales banned carrier bags yet duplicates every single official document, creating hundreds of tons of waste knowing that everyone could manage with one seems lost on the Welsh gestapo. And finally, on the culture question, leaving aside that a lot of it is invented (people never did wear stove-pipe hats nor walk around in silk bedlinen with crowns of leaves reciting poetry), it is irrelevant to the very large number of people who migrated here so why force it on their kids? Mine get so many hours in school, I'd prefer that time was spent on something useful. Llanmartinangel

6:25pm Thu 2 Jan 14

varteg1 says...

mai_b23 wrote:
Why are all the anti-welsh so focused on 'Welsh not being useful'?
How is speaking another language/ learning about your own culture considered not useful??

Whether it's useful in a money making sense is irrelevant. Having that extra language increases your brain's capacity to learn all sorts of other things.

And you cannot simply say it is being forced upon our kids in schools. Isn't every subject? If I actually had a choice in the matter (as you clearly seem to think you have the right to choose school subjects ), as a teenager I probably would have demanded that all subjects be scrapped and ask that I could get drunk and high with all of my friends. Not realistic. x
Quoted....

"....Why are all the anti-welsh so focused on 'Welsh not being useful'?
How is speaking another language/ learning about your own culture considered not useful??....."

I am sure you don't actually get the wider picture, so let's start with your above comment...

The anti Welsh you refer to are the majority here in Wales.

To a very small number, peppered all over Wales, no matter where they reside, they do not constitute any sort of majority as they being disparate have no joined up community, therefore they can demonstrate 'cultural' homogeneity So, with that FACT in mind, just what culture do you refer to?
Any residual 'culture' from times gone by has been little in evidence, hence the necessity for philanthropic amateurs in the 19th century to literally invent a culture, but based on what?... thievery, robbery, banditry, pillage rape, murder, localised genocide, all on the Cymro, invariably by their fellow countrymen.

Nothing much cultural in that sort of history.

Then we get the perpetual commentary about how useful the language is, yes, I am minded to partially agree that having a split linguism could make it easier to take up a second language, but why opt for a language that is to all intents and purposes, strictly local.
Not only that, but unlike other languages, especially those from Continetal Europe, or further east, has not one bit of commonality, again I say yes, it may well be one of the oldest languages in the European area, but with no ability to make common ground with the modern European languages, where does it become useful, never mind commercially, how about communicatively?

Your problem, as with all those who 'defend' the language, you refuse to accept the necessity to come to terms with what it costs, and you do not exclusively pay for it, it's funding is extracted from the whole tax base of Britain, ; come to terms with that, rationalise your argument and we would soon see a much wider appreciation of it by the Non Cymro, especially when your own funding is used instead of taking it, in the, main from the rest of us.

Academic subjects in education have extremely wide application panorama out in thge global economy, on the day that Cymraeg has as an important a value, will be the day I cease to criticise the way it is utilised politically here in Wales....not Cymru,...that fictional fantasy land we are constantly expected to look towards.
[quote][p][bold]mai_b23[/bold] wrote: Why are all the anti-welsh so focused on 'Welsh not being useful'? How is speaking another language/ learning about your own culture considered not useful?? Whether it's useful in a money making sense is irrelevant. Having that extra language increases your brain's capacity to learn all sorts of other things. And you cannot simply say it is being forced upon our kids in schools. Isn't every subject? If I actually had a choice in the matter (as you clearly seem to think you have the right to choose school subjects ), as a teenager I probably would have demanded that all subjects be scrapped and ask that I could get drunk and high with all of my friends. Not realistic. x[/p][/quote]Quoted.... "....Why are all the anti-welsh so focused on 'Welsh not being useful'? How is speaking another language/ learning about your own culture considered not useful??....." I am sure you don't actually get the wider picture, so let's start with your above comment... The anti Welsh you refer to are the majority here in Wales. To a very small number, peppered all over Wales, no matter where they reside, they do not constitute any sort of majority as they being disparate have no joined up community, therefore they can demonstrate 'cultural' homogeneity So, with that FACT in mind, just what culture do you refer to? Any residual 'culture' from times gone by has been little in evidence, hence the necessity for philanthropic amateurs in the 19th century to literally invent a culture, but based on what?... thievery, robbery, banditry, pillage rape, murder, localised genocide, all on the Cymro, invariably by their fellow countrymen. Nothing much cultural in that sort of history. Then we get the perpetual commentary about how useful the language is, yes, I am minded to partially agree that having a split linguism could make it easier to take up a second language, but why opt for a language that is to all intents and purposes, strictly local. Not only that, but unlike other languages, especially those from Continetal Europe, or further east, has not one bit of commonality, again I say yes, it may well be one of the oldest languages in the European area, but with no ability to make common ground with the modern European languages, where does it become useful, never mind commercially, how about communicatively? Your problem, as with all those who 'defend' the language, you refuse to accept the necessity to come to terms with what it costs, and you do not exclusively pay for it, it's funding is extracted from the whole tax base of Britain, ; come to terms with that, rationalise your argument and we would soon see a much wider appreciation of it by the Non Cymro, especially when your own funding is used instead of taking it, in the, main from the rest of us. Academic subjects in education have extremely wide application panorama out in thge global economy, on the day that Cymraeg has as an important a value, will be the day I cease to criticise the way it is utilised politically here in Wales....not Cymru,...that fictional fantasy land we are constantly expected to look towards. varteg1

4:05pm Sat 4 Jan 14

Torfaenwr says...

I completely understand that YOU don't see Welsh as valuable, but guess what? It really isn't all about you! Other people's needs are also valid you know, and the hundreds of thousands of taxpayers who hold Welsh dear, and pay their way the same as the rest of society, have have every right to their way of life too. This means Welsh as a normal, visible and non-negotiable part of life in Wales, supported as English is. And our culture is no more or less invented than any other in the world thank you - that's what culture is.

Welsh is a permanent fixture here, so why not simply accept it? Griping won't help - you can wish we didn't exist, but the official figures make plain the fact that we do - that's the purpose of a census. You don't get to tell us we can't have support for our language, because common sense and the law protect our entitlement to live our lives using it if we so choose, and we do. These are not just my views. People went to war to fight against fascism and the suppression of people's cultural freedom.

What a joke that you think you're paying for us. We are a fifth of the nation, but you behave as if our contribution counts for nothing. Welsh has never had anything vaguely close to a proportionate share of spending, and we've been disadvantaged even further by the recent cuts. We're so sick of being shortchanged and yet somehow painted as greedy at the same time. And how on earth does the way our taxes are filtered via Westminster have any relevance? We'd all be so much better off if things were separate and Wales saw the benefit of its plentiful resources, but let's not open that box, as I expect you disagree there too.
It's such a lie that Welsh costs a lot of money. In fact is that Wales spends a tiny fraction of any other multilingual nation on language support.

Your anti-Welsh propaganda paints a false choice between Welsh and other services, but this is disingenuous double counting: Money spent on Welsh services would only be extra if we Welsh would otherwise use no services at all, when of course we use the same services as anyone else. There might well be a small economy of scale benefit from a single language, but we don't have a single language, we have two. Why should we Welsh customers and taxpayers have to suppress our culture and use English here in our own land?

It really isn't beyond the wit of man to plan things so that the right proportion of Welsh speakers are employed in the right places, and this needn't cost more at all with proper advance planning in the first place. Despite stated national policy to do so, somehow it still often doesn't happen, and so unfortunately, there is a need for the commissioner's office. Much of the financial impact actually comes from those of you who don't speak Welsh: it is YOU who need translators, not us.

Repeated surveys show that you anti-Welsh are actually a small minority (albeit a noisy and opinionated one), and actually most people across Wales who don't speak Welsh still support it, and identify with it as their heritage and wish they had had the opportunity to learn it properly.

I only post to give a bit of balance - I participate in the Welsh community on a daily basis, so I know the real truth, but you know what: troll on with your oppressive views - Only a fool could fail to see your wilful blindness.
I completely understand that YOU don't see Welsh as valuable, but guess what? It really isn't all about you! Other people's needs are also valid you know, and the hundreds of thousands of taxpayers who hold Welsh dear, and pay their way the same as the rest of society, have have every right to their way of life too. This means Welsh as a normal, visible and non-negotiable part of life in Wales, supported as English is. And our culture is no more or less invented than any other in the world thank you - that's what culture is. Welsh is a permanent fixture here, so why not simply accept it? Griping won't help - you can wish we didn't exist, but the official figures make plain the fact that we do - that's the purpose of a census. You don't get to tell us we can't have support for our language, because common sense and the law protect our entitlement to live our lives using it if we so choose, and we do. These are not just my views. People went to war to fight against fascism and the suppression of people's cultural freedom. What a joke that you think you're paying for us. We are a fifth of the nation, but you behave as if our contribution counts for nothing. Welsh has never had anything vaguely close to a proportionate share of spending, and we've been disadvantaged even further by the recent cuts. We're so sick of being shortchanged and yet somehow painted as greedy at the same time. And how on earth does the way our taxes are filtered via Westminster have any relevance? We'd all be so much better off if things were separate and Wales saw the benefit of its plentiful resources, but let's not open that box, as I expect you disagree there too. It's such a lie that Welsh costs a lot of money. In fact is that Wales spends a tiny fraction of any other multilingual nation on language support. Your anti-Welsh propaganda paints a false choice between Welsh and other services, but this is disingenuous double counting: Money spent on Welsh services would only be extra if we Welsh would otherwise use no services at all, when of course we use the same services as anyone else. There might well be a small economy of scale benefit from a single language, but we don't have a single language, we have two. Why should we Welsh customers and taxpayers have to suppress our culture and use English here in our own land? It really isn't beyond the wit of man to plan things so that the right proportion of Welsh speakers are employed in the right places, and this needn't cost more at all with proper advance planning in the first place. Despite stated national policy to do so, somehow it still often doesn't happen, and so unfortunately, there is a need for the commissioner's office. Much of the financial impact actually comes from those of you who don't speak Welsh: it is YOU who need translators, not us. Repeated surveys show that you anti-Welsh are actually a small minority (albeit a noisy and opinionated one), and actually most people across Wales who don't speak Welsh still support it, and identify with it as their heritage and wish they had had the opportunity to learn it properly. I only post to give a bit of balance - I participate in the Welsh community on a daily basis, so I know the real truth, but you know what: troll on with your oppressive views - Only a fool could fail to see your wilful blindness. Torfaenwr

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