First World War coin showing image of Lord Kitchener is 'offensive' - says Plaid Cymru candidate Dai Lloyd

South Wales Argus: The Royal Mint's commemorative £2 coin shows an image of Lord Kitchener and the words 'Your country needs you' The Royal Mint's commemorative £2 coin shows an image of Lord Kitchener and the words 'Your country needs you'

A PLAID Cymru Assembly candidate has called for a coin marking the centenary of the First World War to be scrapped.

The Royal Mint's recently issued commemorative £2 coin shows an image of Lord Kitchener and the words "Your country needs you".

The famous picture was used during the British government's recruitment campaign and is one of the best-known pieces of propaganda in history.

But Plaid Cymru Welsh Assembly candidate Dai Lloyd says the "offensive" coin glorifies war and should never have gone into circulation.

Dr Lloyd said: " Until now there has been a widespread consensus that the commemoration should avoid glorifying war or reopening old wounds.

"But it is hard to imagine a more offensive and jingoistic message to send to the rest of the world than this unfortunate image.

"It epitomises the blinkered mentality that sent millions to their deaths in the trenches, including tens of thousands from Wales.

"At a time when we are seeking reconciliation between the West and the Muslim world, how can it make sense to lionise Lord Kitchener, whose military record includes the butchery of thousands of Sudanese at Omdurman?"

Dr Lloyd, who is looking to make a return to the Welsh Assembly in 2016 after losing his regional seat five years ago, said there were better ways the Royal Mint could have marked the war's 100th anniversary.

"If they wanted to mark the events of 1914/18, why not recall Hedd Wyn, the Welsh poet who lost his life at Passchendaele and whose posthumous entry won the 1917 National Eisteddfod chair?" he asked.

The Royal Mint said it had been producing British coins that have recorded the passing of history, documenting changes in monarchs, customs and national themes.

A spokeswoman said: " In 2014 Britain will remember the 100th anniversary of the start of the First World War and the Royal Mint will embark on a five-year commemoration of the emotive wartime journey from outbreak to armistice.

"This programme starts with a £2 coin bearing sculptor John Bergdahl's powerful likeness of the instantly recognisable image of Lord Kitchener's iconic call to arms.

"This design was selected to mark the centenary of the start of the First World War because it has come to be strongly associated with the outbreak of the war and is recognised by much of the population.

"It is important to understand that this coin does not stand alone, but is part of a longer programme of coins that will commemorate the First World War."

She added: "These coins will tell the stories of the armed forces, individuals, key battles and cultural and technological developments of that period, before finishing with a poignant reflection on the armistice and the ongoing legacy of the war."

Lord Kitchener was secretary of state for war at the beginning of the First World War and organised armies on an unprecedented scale.

It is believed he drowned in 1916 after his ship was sunk by a German mine off the Orkney Islands. His body was never recovered.

Comments (40)

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4:49pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Mr Bump. says...

I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists.
I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists. Mr Bump.
  • Score: 43

4:56pm Tue 14 Jan 14

tap says...

Mr Bump. wrote:
I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists.
I agree, and this idiot wants to return to the assembly as well. Ah well it is looking more like a lunatic asylum every day!
[quote][p][bold]Mr Bump.[/bold] wrote: I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists.[/p][/quote]I agree, and this idiot wants to return to the assembly as well. Ah well it is looking more like a lunatic asylum every day! tap
  • Score: 42

5:00pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Frankfurt says...

I agree with Dr Lloyd. I don't think that this image is appropriate for our coinage. It smacks of jingoism. WW1 was a tragedy on a gigantic scale.
I agree with Dr Lloyd. I don't think that this image is appropriate for our coinage. It smacks of jingoism. WW1 was a tragedy on a gigantic scale. Frankfurt
  • Score: -43

5:05pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

Mr Bump. wrote:
I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists.
I came here to post the exact same thing. Good to know there are still some sane rational people left in this part of the world...
[quote][p][bold]Mr Bump.[/bold] wrote: I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists.[/p][/quote]I came here to post the exact same thing. Good to know there are still some sane rational people left in this part of the world... Vox Dei
  • Score: 34

5:20pm Tue 14 Jan 14

taffymark says...

Dai Lloyd "Shut up we don't want you"..
Dai Lloyd "Shut up we don't want you".. taffymark
  • Score: 33

5:29pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Newportsucks85 says...

as apposed to the dramatic, action movie adverts for recruitment ...........yawn mr Kitchener is hardly glorifying war....
as apposed to the dramatic, action movie adverts for recruitment ...........yawn mr Kitchener is hardly glorifying war.... Newportsucks85
  • Score: 17

5:36pm Tue 14 Jan 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Anything that the government do to 'honour the sacrifice' of these people whilst still being engaged in actions abroad, the likes of which the first world war was supposedly conducted to fight against - is just plain wrong on so many levels, I just can't believe others can't see it.

Maybe I AM going mad........
Anything that the government do to 'honour the sacrifice' of these people whilst still being engaged in actions abroad, the likes of which the first world war was supposedly conducted to fight against - is just plain wrong on so many levels, I just can't believe others can't see it. Maybe I AM going mad........ GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -31

6:21pm Tue 14 Jan 14

arjwain says...

i cant ever remember a time when some one wasn't at war on this planet ,
or us British sticking our nose in on other countries problems ,well not us British our cowards at number 10 , im sure if there had been a vote we would have said no . who wants to lose son;s and daughters for a country that milks our pockets and our kids lives ,
so i think the coin is quite fitting .
i cant ever remember a time when some one wasn't at war on this planet , or us British sticking our nose in on other countries problems ,well not us British our cowards at number 10 , im sure if there had been a vote we would have said no . who wants to lose son;s and daughters for a country that milks our pockets and our kids lives , so i think the coin is quite fitting . arjwain
  • Score: 13

6:36pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Mr Bump. wrote:
I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists.
Yep. No argument with that. They'd turn talking tripe into an Olympic sport.
[quote][p][bold]Mr Bump.[/bold] wrote: I'll tell you what i find offensive, Welsh nationalists.[/p][/quote]Yep. No argument with that. They'd turn talking tripe into an Olympic sport. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 27

6:52pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Dai Rear says...

Dr Lloyd
Let me guess. PhD in media studies?
Dr Lloyd Let me guess. PhD in media studies? Dai Rear
  • Score: 10

7:28pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Frankfurt says...

Dai Rear wrote:
Dr Lloyd
Let me guess. PhD in media studies?
He's a medical doctor and works as a GP.
[quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: Dr Lloyd Let me guess. PhD in media studies?[/p][/quote]He's a medical doctor and works as a GP. Frankfurt
  • Score: 1

7:32pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Frankfurt says...

arjwain wrote:
i cant ever remember a time when some one wasn't at war on this planet ,
or us British sticking our nose in on other countries problems ,well not us British our cowards at number 10 , im sure if there had been a vote we would have said no . who wants to lose son;s and daughters for a country that milks our pockets and our kids lives ,
so i think the coin is quite fitting .
From what I've read it seems that the war was popular with the public when it started. So a vote to go to war may have been won. Of course, no-one had any idea, at the beginning, of how dreadful the war would be and how long it would last.
[quote][p][bold]arjwain[/bold] wrote: i cant ever remember a time when some one wasn't at war on this planet , or us British sticking our nose in on other countries problems ,well not us British our cowards at number 10 , im sure if there had been a vote we would have said no . who wants to lose son;s and daughters for a country that milks our pockets and our kids lives , so i think the coin is quite fitting .[/p][/quote]From what I've read it seems that the war was popular with the public when it started. So a vote to go to war may have been won. Of course, no-one had any idea, at the beginning, of how dreadful the war would be and how long it would last. Frankfurt
  • Score: 11

7:48pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Welshman76 says...

Surely this image reminds people of the hell and horror inflicted on many in World War I. If it does, then it is doing its job in commemorating those who fought for their country.
Surely this image reminds people of the hell and horror inflicted on many in World War I. If it does, then it is doing its job in commemorating those who fought for their country. Welshman76
  • Score: 19

7:51pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Crossbenchtory says...

Whilst WW1, like all wars, was an appalling waste of life, irrespective of which side the dead and wounded fought for, it happened and there is nothing any of us can do to change that fact.

As a veteran myself I would point out that this coin is a great way to commemorate the Soldiers, Heros each and everyone, who not only fought and died for Britain, but fought and survived. These brave men, the vast majority of whom were members of neither the Regular nor the Territorial Army prior to the outbreak of hostilities, answered the call when their country needed them and they answered it with pride and courage.
This is a lesson that should be taken on board by all young men, with the privilege which is being born British comes responsibility and occasionally the need for great sacrifice.

I would also ask all those who seek to denigrate the Generals who lead our Army during those dark days of carnage on the Western Front, how would you have prosecuted that war? I put it to each and every one of you that there was no other way, traumatic as it was, the strategy used was necessary.
Whilst WW1, like all wars, was an appalling waste of life, irrespective of which side the dead and wounded fought for, it happened and there is nothing any of us can do to change that fact. As a veteran myself I would point out that this coin is a great way to commemorate the Soldiers, Heros each and everyone, who not only fought and died for Britain, but fought and survived. These brave men, the vast majority of whom were members of neither the Regular nor the Territorial Army prior to the outbreak of hostilities, answered the call when their country needed them and they answered it with pride and courage. This is a lesson that should be taken on board by all young men, with the privilege which is being born British comes responsibility and occasionally the need for great sacrifice. I would also ask all those who seek to denigrate the Generals who lead our Army during those dark days of carnage on the Western Front, how would you have prosecuted that war? I put it to each and every one of you that there was no other way, traumatic as it was, the strategy used was necessary. Crossbenchtory
  • Score: 17

8:04pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Kevin Ward - Editor says...

Please avoid using bad language when posting.
Thank you.
Please avoid using bad language when posting. Thank you. Kevin Ward - Editor
  • Score: 8

8:27pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Frankfurt says...

You make a good point Crossbenchtory about the generals. I've read a lot of testimony from veterans of the Western Front and the impression given is one of respect for their commanders. Soldiers certainly did not seem to think that they were led by fools or idiots. No-one had ever fought a war like this before and everyone believed that artillery could cut wire etc. Though that was largely wrong. But by the end, British technology had defeated the German wire which was just ripped wholesale by specially adapted tanks. Those successful tactics were not devised by stupid men.
You make a good point Crossbenchtory about the generals. I've read a lot of testimony from veterans of the Western Front and the impression given is one of respect for their commanders. Soldiers certainly did not seem to think that they were led by fools or idiots. No-one had ever fought a war like this before and everyone believed that artillery could cut wire etc. Though that was largely wrong. But by the end, British technology had defeated the German wire which was just ripped wholesale by specially adapted tanks. Those successful tactics were not devised by stupid men. Frankfurt
  • Score: 8

8:43pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Dr Martin says...

Dai Rear wrote:
Dr Lloyd
Let me guess. PhD in media studies?
Hello dai
Fancy joining in?

http://www.thebolton
news.co.uk/news/1093
5056.Bolton_Council_
could_get_cash_to_le
t_fracking_companies
_into_borough
[quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: Dr Lloyd Let me guess. PhD in media studies?[/p][/quote]Hello dai Fancy joining in? http://www.thebolton news.co.uk/news/1093 5056.Bolton_Council_ could_get_cash_to_le t_fracking_companies _into_borough Dr Martin
  • Score: 5

9:44pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Paul F. McCourt says...

Dear Readers,
I Wish to humbly apoplogise for any offensive comments I made regarding the new WW-I Commemorative Coin.
Looking through the rest of the comments written by others, I somehow feel that my comments were rather mild compared with the ones above.
WHY are people so angry?? WW-I was an absolutley VILE part of our history. Many of our people, ANZAC's and Welsh were lost and their Memories should never be tarnished by arguing and fighting with each other like this in the Newspaper.
Please respect our fallen and remember what they fought for? For our FREEDOM and to protect OUR RIGHTS in the Bill of Rights 1689. Don't go like the Americans and ABUSE what's left of our Freedoms.
ANZAC DAY is April 25. I don't know what day your Commemorations are, but, as they say on thse special occasions. . .
LEST WE FORGET!
Once again, I apologise for any offensive comments I said earlier.
KIa Kaha! (Be Strong!)
Dear Readers, I Wish to humbly apoplogise for any offensive comments I made regarding the new WW-I Commemorative Coin. Looking through the rest of the comments written by others, I somehow feel that my comments were rather mild compared with the ones above. WHY are people so angry?? WW-I was an absolutley VILE part of our history. Many of our people, ANZAC's and Welsh were lost and their Memories should never be tarnished by arguing and fighting with each other like this in the Newspaper. Please respect our fallen and remember what they fought for? For our FREEDOM and to protect OUR RIGHTS in the Bill of Rights 1689. Don't go like the Americans and ABUSE what's left of our Freedoms. ANZAC DAY is April 25. I don't know what day your Commemorations are, but, as they say on thse special occasions. . . LEST WE FORGET! Once again, I apologise for any offensive comments I said earlier. KIa Kaha! (Be Strong!) Paul F. McCourt
  • Score: -7

10:03pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Katie Re-Registered says...

The main cause of the First World War was nationalism. Patriotism and being proud of your heritage and country is one thing but nationalism is pointless and stupid and from 1914 to 1945 it's a fairly basic fact of history that it only led to tragedy and then more tragedy.
The main cause of the First World War was nationalism. Patriotism and being proud of your heritage and country is one thing but nationalism is pointless and stupid and from 1914 to 1945 it's a fairly basic fact of history that it only led to tragedy and then more tragedy. Katie Re-Registered
  • Score: 2

10:11pm Tue 14 Jan 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

The politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder.


So said Harry Patch, the last trench war survivor. Now contrast that with what the Right Horrible Michael Gove, our education secretary nonetheless, said recently

Our understanding of the war has been overlaid by misunderstandings, and misrepresentations which reflect an, at best, ambiguous attitude to this country and, at worst, an unhappy compulsion on the part of some to denigrate virtues such as patriotism, honour and courage.


Hmmm... poor old Harry, barely cooling in his grave as the centenary gets underway. His opinion of the conflict, that saw a million British dead in the trenches was pretty damning. For him, fioand the generations that followed, the mass sacrifice of men in Flandewrs was seen as a lesson in hte futilty of war. Even the later war against Hitler didn't erase the sentiment and the poppy is still an ambiguous symbol. I have to wonder when old Queen Liz makes her annual trip to the Cenotaph, is it to celebrate or apologise?

The Right 'Orrible Mr. Gove (the man in charge of the national curriculum) is in little doubt, recently weighing in on the Daily Fail about Blackadder and others, saying they present a lop-sided view of the conflict. According to him, WW1 was a just war because - and I quote - 'The ruthless social darwinism of the German Elites, the pitiless approach they took to occupation, their aggressively expansionist war aims and their scorn for the international order, all made war justified.' The fact that all of that makes just as much sense if you substitute the word British, for German seems to have escaped his attention. For tub-thumping jingoists like Gove, Britain's empire is a source of pride, but The Hun's ambitions in the same direction, a source of shame.

Pehaps understandably, in almost all discussions of WW1, it's the horror of the trenches that features first and foremost in our collective memory. However, the first British troops to go into action did so in Iraq in 1914. The battle of Basra lasted ten days and saw British colonials fighting the Ottomans for possession of the Persian oil fields. We won of course, and ruled there under mandate until 1932. What was that about 'expansionist war aims' again Mr. Gove?

Now, Gove's critique of Blackadder et al is no isolated incident. He's not a stupid man, making a silly mistake about history and putting his trench foot in his mouth - he is part of an efor to alter our collective memory, rehabilitate the war, and with it the right of the British elites to interfere in the international order, using military force wherever it suits their purpose. Those elites were alarmed at the million march against Blair's war, and were disappointed with our reaction to theidea of intervention in Syria. From their point of view, the public simply MUST be convinced to be more warlike.

The war to end all wars might just become the war to justify all wars if they get their way. The upcoming commemorations
are set to be a festival of jingoism as the memory of the conflist is whitewashed. The heritage lottery fund has set aside £50 million to organise events, commencing with the bizarre 'sacred soil' last November when seventy sandbags of soil were brought from Flanders fields by navy frigate and gun carriage to the new memorial garden at Wellington Barracks in London - to be opened officially this year on November 9th. The centrepiece will be an inscription of John McRae's 'In Flanders Fields'. Now, this poem is assuredly from the right time and place - written in 1915 by a serving officer but it's notable only because it's one of the few poems that emerged from the war that could be described as 'pro war'. The opening line of the third verse reads ' Take up our quarrel with the foe'. Of course, neither Siegfried Sassoon or Wilfred Owen get a look in. Apparently the soil is sacred because it is bload soaked - blood and soil being treated with great veneration in all nationalisms - most famously one led by a certain single testicled Austrian corporal.

The only way to combat this will be to remember the real history of the war. A war of European empires whose skirmishing in far-flung colonial lands finally dragged the whole continent into the abyss. A war whose moral vacuum was recognised by millions at the time, who were then forcibly conscripted and shot for deserting or showing cowardice in the face of the enemy.

As Milan Kundera once noted 'The struggle of people against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting'

That is all.
[quote]The politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder.[/quote] So said Harry Patch, the last trench war survivor. Now contrast that with what the Right Horrible Michael Gove, our education secretary nonetheless, said recently [quote]Our understanding of the war has been overlaid by misunderstandings, and misrepresentations which reflect an, at best, ambiguous attitude to this country and, at worst, an unhappy compulsion on the part of some to denigrate virtues such as patriotism, honour and courage.[/quote] Hmmm... poor old Harry, barely cooling in his grave as the centenary gets underway. His opinion of the conflict, that saw a million British dead in the trenches was pretty damning. For him, fioand the generations that followed, the mass sacrifice of men in Flandewrs was seen as a lesson in hte futilty of war. Even the later war against Hitler didn't erase the sentiment and the poppy is still an ambiguous symbol. I have to wonder when old Queen Liz makes her annual trip to the Cenotaph, is it to celebrate or apologise? The Right 'Orrible Mr. Gove (the man in charge of the national curriculum) is in little doubt, recently weighing in on the Daily Fail about Blackadder and others, saying they present a lop-sided view of the conflict. According to him, WW1 was a just war because - and I quote - 'The ruthless social darwinism of the German Elites, the pitiless approach they took to occupation, their aggressively expansionist war aims and their scorn for the international order, all made war justified.' The fact that all of that makes just as much sense if you substitute the word British, for German seems to have escaped his attention. For tub-thumping jingoists like Gove, Britain's empire is a source of pride, but The Hun's ambitions in the same direction, a source of shame. Pehaps understandably, in almost all discussions of WW1, it's the horror of the trenches that features first and foremost in our collective memory. However, the first British troops to go into action did so in Iraq in 1914. The battle of Basra lasted ten days and saw British colonials fighting the Ottomans for possession of the Persian oil fields. We won of course, and ruled there under mandate until 1932. What was that about 'expansionist war aims' again Mr. Gove? Now, Gove's critique of Blackadder et al is no isolated incident. He's not a stupid man, making a silly mistake about history and putting his trench foot in his mouth - he is part of an efor to alter our collective memory, rehabilitate the war, and with it the right of the British elites to interfere in the international order, using military force wherever it suits their purpose. Those elites were alarmed at the million march against Blair's war, and were disappointed with our reaction to theidea of intervention in Syria. From their point of view, the public simply MUST be convinced to be more warlike. The war to end all wars might just become the war to justify all wars if they get their way. The upcoming commemorations are set to be a festival of jingoism as the memory of the conflist is whitewashed. The heritage lottery fund has set aside £50 million to organise events, commencing with the bizarre 'sacred soil' last November when seventy sandbags of soil were brought from Flanders fields by navy frigate and gun carriage to the new memorial garden at Wellington Barracks in London - to be opened officially this year on November 9th. The centrepiece will be an inscription of John McRae's 'In Flanders Fields'. Now, this poem is assuredly from the right time and place - written in 1915 by a serving officer but it's notable only because it's one of the few poems that emerged from the war that could be described as 'pro war'. The opening line of the third verse reads ' Take up our quarrel with the foe'. Of course, neither Siegfried Sassoon or Wilfred Owen get a look in. Apparently the soil is sacred because it is bload soaked - blood and soil being treated with great veneration in all nationalisms - most famously one led by a certain single testicled Austrian corporal. The only way to combat this will be to remember the real history of the war. A war of European empires whose skirmishing in far-flung colonial lands finally dragged the whole continent into the abyss. A war whose moral vacuum was recognised by millions at the time, who were then forcibly conscripted and shot for deserting or showing cowardice in the face of the enemy. As Milan Kundera once noted 'The struggle of people against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting' That is all. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: 4

7:30am Wed 15 Jan 14

john.hall1000 says...

Who cares if the new coin upsets the muslim world, the british people are proud of their history, and this year is also the 70th anniversary of D DAY, JUNE 6TH 1944. Let us not forget that has well.
Who cares if the new coin upsets the muslim world, the british people are proud of their history, and this year is also the 70th anniversary of D DAY, JUNE 6TH 1944. Let us not forget that has well. john.hall1000
  • Score: 12

10:00am Wed 15 Jan 14

_Bryan_ says...

I thought the war started started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry.

Or at least that's what the kids are getting taught these days apparently.
I thought the war started started when a bloke called Archie Duke shot an ostrich 'cause he was hungry. Or at least that's what the kids are getting taught these days apparently. _Bryan_
  • Score: 7

10:27am Wed 15 Jan 14

Dai Rear says...

Frankfurt wrote:
Dai Rear wrote:
Dr Lloyd
Let me guess. PhD in media studies?
He's a medical doctor and works as a GP.
Don't think I'd go to him if I caught my fingers in the letterbox delivering UKIP pamphlets....
"At a time when we are seeking reconciliation between the West and the Muslim world, how can it make sense to lionise Lord Kitchener, whose military record includes the butchery of thousands of Sudanese at Omdurman?"
Psst Doc-don't think the "Mohammedan World" is seeking reconciliation with us. Anyway what's the "Mohammedan World"? The Shi'ite Mohammedan World, the Sunni? The Wahhabi? depending which lot lost at Omdurman I guess Kitchener would be a hero to the others, wouldn't he Doc?
[quote][p][bold]Frankfurt[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: Dr Lloyd Let me guess. PhD in media studies?[/p][/quote]He's a medical doctor and works as a GP.[/p][/quote]Don't think I'd go to him if I caught my fingers in the letterbox delivering UKIP pamphlets.... "At a time when we are seeking reconciliation between the West and the Muslim world, how can it make sense to lionise Lord Kitchener, whose military record includes the butchery of thousands of Sudanese at Omdurman?" Psst Doc-don't think the "Mohammedan World" is seeking reconciliation with us. Anyway what's the "Mohammedan World"? The Shi'ite Mohammedan World, the Sunni? The Wahhabi? depending which lot lost at Omdurman I guess Kitchener would be a hero to the others, wouldn't he Doc? Dai Rear
  • Score: 10

10:37am Wed 15 Jan 14

white white says...

dai lloyd should retract his remarks. now!. hundreds of thousand
of british and empire troops died and many more injured
mentally (ptsd) and physicaly , some in terrible slaughter
mr lloyd should also remember what they were fighting for.
and apologise not only to the dwindling few and to
there descendents . i for one will be purchase the coin
fore my self and children so the will remember the scacrifice
of our brave men and women who served their country in that terrible
time .. that the indians( indhu, sikhs and moslems) fought
on the western front along with ausies, south africans canadians
new zealanders and others not named here, perhaps
mr lloyd when the time comes will object to the anniversary coin of
ww2 .
dai lloyd should retract his remarks. now!. hundreds of thousand of british and empire troops died and many more injured mentally (ptsd) and physicaly , some in terrible slaughter mr lloyd should also remember what they were fighting for. and apologise not only to the dwindling few and to there descendents . i for one will be purchase the coin fore my self and children so the will remember the scacrifice of our brave men and women who served their country in that terrible time .. that the indians( indhu, sikhs and moslems) fought on the western front along with ausies, south africans canadians new zealanders and others not named here, perhaps mr lloyd when the time comes will object to the anniversary coin of ww2 . white white
  • Score: 5

11:00am Wed 15 Jan 14

GeorgeapNada says...

WW1 was a complete bloodbath. It was also cruel, unjustified and extremely costly in all senses of the word. Have we already forgotten how abhorrent this war was which would have seen the wholesale slaughter of people, largely from the working classes, just four generations ago?

And there are people still defending the jingoism of Kitchener? FFS!
WW1 was a complete bloodbath. It was also cruel, unjustified and extremely costly in all senses of the word. Have we already forgotten how abhorrent this war was which would have seen the wholesale slaughter of people, largely from the working classes, just four generations ago? And there are people still defending the jingoism of Kitchener? FFS! GeorgeapNada
  • Score: -3

11:43am Wed 15 Jan 14

tking says...

Politicians create the conditions for war (i.e by being economical with the truth, just ask Tony Blair) what with the then world super powers carving up the world between them for the natural resources and land grab, conflict was enevitable, look at it from the ruling class point, they receive unimaginable riches, get rid of millions of pesky working class, and carry on when its all over...brilliant, why would I want to go to kill someone 4000 miles away who has never done me any harm and I am not at war with, that Sun comic has a lot to answer for....
Politicians create the conditions for war (i.e by being economical with the truth, just ask Tony Blair) what with the then world super powers carving up the world between them for the natural resources and land grab, conflict was enevitable, look at it from the ruling class point, they receive unimaginable riches, get rid of millions of pesky working class, and carry on when its all over...brilliant, why would I want to go to kill someone 4000 miles away who has never done me any harm and I am not at war with, that Sun comic has a lot to answer for.... tking
  • Score: 1

12:05pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Jammie Dodger says...

What a total small minded, do gooder he is! Anything to get his name out there! Disposable! We should be proud and honoured of what those men did in The Great War!
What a total small minded, do gooder he is! Anything to get his name out there! Disposable! We should be proud and honoured of what those men did in The Great War! Jammie Dodger
  • Score: 7

12:21pm Wed 15 Jan 14

GeorgeapNada says...

The Great War? The only thing Great about it was the level of slaughter of innocent lives - on both sides. It was also needless and a dreadful waste of human life.

Jammie Dodger you need to put down your biscuits, take your blinkers off and pick up a history book. And wake the f..f..f.flip up.
The Great War? The only thing Great about it was the level of slaughter of innocent lives - on both sides. It was also needless and a dreadful waste of human life. Jammie Dodger you need to put down your biscuits, take your blinkers off and pick up a history book. And wake the f..f..f.flip up. GeorgeapNada
  • Score: 5

12:42pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Dai Rear says...

GeorgeapNada wrote:
WW1 was a complete bloodbath. It was also cruel, unjustified and extremely costly in all senses of the word. Have we already forgotten how abhorrent this war was which would have seen the wholesale slaughter of people, largely from the working classes, just four generations ago?

And there are people still defending the jingoism of Kitchener? FFS!
Proportionately more from the upper classes died since they were the junior officers and had to lead their men.
Moreover the State showed its gratitude to them by confiscating their property through the Death Tax when their sons died in battle, e.g, the Russells of Bedford. Admittedly that particular vileness has been legislated out but the class war won't play here Mr. filius nullius and Mr tking.
[quote][p][bold]GeorgeapNada[/bold] wrote: WW1 was a complete bloodbath. It was also cruel, unjustified and extremely costly in all senses of the word. Have we already forgotten how abhorrent this war was which would have seen the wholesale slaughter of people, largely from the working classes, just four generations ago? And there are people still defending the jingoism of Kitchener? FFS![/p][/quote]Proportionately more from the upper classes died since they were the junior officers and had to lead their men. Moreover the State showed its gratitude to them by confiscating their property through the Death Tax when their sons died in battle, e.g, the Russells of Bedford. Admittedly that particular vileness has been legislated out but the class war won't play here Mr. filius nullius and Mr tking. Dai Rear
  • Score: 2

1:50pm Wed 15 Jan 14

GeorgeapNada says...

Dai Rear - I dispute your figures but even if there was a "proportionately" higher number of upper classes dying that would be easily explained by the fact that the stinking rich, upper classes were so few and the working poor were so many.

Not much has changed today. Sadly.
Dai Rear - I dispute your figures but even if there was a "proportionately" higher number of upper classes dying that would be easily explained by the fact that the stinking rich, upper classes were so few and the working poor were so many. Not much has changed today. Sadly. GeorgeapNada
  • Score: -2

3:39pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Dai Rear says...

GeorgeapNada wrote:
Dai Rear - I dispute your figures but even if there was a "proportionatel
y" higher number of upper classes dying that would be easily explained by the fact that the stinking rich, upper classes were so few and the working poor were so many.

Not much has changed today. Sadly.
Yes you're so right Mr B'stard. David Lloyd George was a "stinking rich " Tory. The 1911 Parliament Act was a chimera. No one in Wales ever voted for the Liberal Party. The Old Age Pension was a form of euthanasia and only Trotskyites like you have any grasp of the truth.
PS I didn't quote any figures and if the government during WW1 wanted to be rid of "pesky working class" why did it not conscript in those parts of the country which are now the Republic of Ireland?
[quote][p][bold]GeorgeapNada[/bold] wrote: Dai Rear - I dispute your figures but even if there was a "proportionatel y" higher number of upper classes dying that would be easily explained by the fact that the stinking rich, upper classes were so few and the working poor were so many. Not much has changed today. Sadly.[/p][/quote]Yes you're so right Mr B'stard. David Lloyd George was a "stinking rich " Tory. The 1911 Parliament Act was a chimera. No one in Wales ever voted for the Liberal Party. The Old Age Pension was a form of euthanasia and only Trotskyites like you have any grasp of the truth. PS I didn't quote any figures and if the government during WW1 wanted to be rid of "pesky working class" why did it not conscript in those parts of the country which are now the Republic of Ireland? Dai Rear
  • Score: 3

4:04pm Wed 15 Jan 14

minesapint says...

Kitchener along with Churchills disastarous involvement in the Dardenells should be enough to deter anyone from including him in any rememberance of this bloody War, Unless that is you wish to highlight their incompetence as an exampleof the ruling elite..
Kitchener along with Churchills disastarous involvement in the Dardenells should be enough to deter anyone from including him in any rememberance of this bloody War, Unless that is you wish to highlight their incompetence as an exampleof the ruling elite.. minesapint
  • Score: -1

4:12pm Wed 15 Jan 14

iantofullpelt says...

My father served in the First World War and just before he died he told me what he saw. What he told me was beyond belief, but sadly true. Dr. Dai Lloyd is correct in what he says and I too find the striking of this coin deeply offensive in my father's name. There is absolutely no glory in war and never decides what is right, only what and who is left
My father served in the First World War and just before he died he told me what he saw. What he told me was beyond belief, but sadly true. Dr. Dai Lloyd is correct in what he says and I too find the striking of this coin deeply offensive in my father's name. There is absolutely no glory in war and never decides what is right, only what and who is left iantofullpelt
  • Score: -3

4:56pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Dai Rear says...

minesapint wrote:
Kitchener along with Churchills disastarous involvement in the Dardenells should be enough to deter anyone from including him in any rememberance of this bloody War, Unless that is you wish to highlight their incompetence as an exampleof the ruling elite..
Maybe Maréchal Pétain or The Lion of Verdun instead...er...um..m
aybe not. there's going to be lot of this childish carping in the next few months. Time for a sharp exit?
[quote][p][bold]minesapint[/bold] wrote: Kitchener along with Churchills disastarous involvement in the Dardenells should be enough to deter anyone from including him in any rememberance of this bloody War, Unless that is you wish to highlight their incompetence as an exampleof the ruling elite..[/p][/quote]Maybe Maréchal Pétain or The Lion of Verdun instead...er...um..m aybe not. there's going to be lot of this childish carping in the next few months. Time for a sharp exit? Dai Rear
  • Score: 1

5:15pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GeorgeapNada wrote:
WW1 was a complete bloodbath. It was also cruel, unjustified and extremely costly in all senses of the word. Have we already forgotten how abhorrent this war was which would have seen the wholesale slaughter of people, largely from the working classes, just four generations ago?

And there are people still defending the jingoism of Kitchener? FFS!
It is worth remembering that during the course of WW1, 78 British and Dominion officers of the rank of Brigadier-General and above were killed or died during active service, while another 146 were wounded, gassed, or captured.

This, of course, does not include the Officers between the ranks of 2nd Lieutenant and Colonel who statistically were more likely to be killed or wounded as the enemy targeted the Command & Control structure of the British Army.

I think any rational person would agree that the risks and horrors endured in the trenches were not based on the societal class one came from, it was, like all wars, equal opportunity slaughter.
[quote][p][bold]GeorgeapNada[/bold] wrote: WW1 was a complete bloodbath. It was also cruel, unjustified and extremely costly in all senses of the word. Have we already forgotten how abhorrent this war was which would have seen the wholesale slaughter of people, largely from the working classes, just four generations ago? And there are people still defending the jingoism of Kitchener? FFS![/p][/quote]It is worth remembering that during the course of WW1, 78 British and Dominion officers of the rank of Brigadier-General and above were killed or died during active service, while another 146 were wounded, gassed, or captured. This, of course, does not include the Officers between the ranks of 2nd Lieutenant and Colonel who statistically were more likely to be killed or wounded as the enemy targeted the Command & Control structure of the British Army. I think any rational person would agree that the risks and horrors endured in the trenches were not based on the societal class one came from, it was, like all wars, equal opportunity slaughter. Crossbenchtory
  • Score: 3

9:50pm Wed 15 Jan 14

varteg1 says...

Katie Re-Registered wrote:
The main cause of the First World War was nationalism. Patriotism and being proud of your heritage and country is one thing but nationalism is pointless and stupid and from 1914 to 1945 it's a fairly basic fact of history that it only led to tragedy and then more tragedy.
Mere months before that war, the British, people, press, politicians , were all behind the Kaiser, he being a close relative of the Royal families across Europe and Russia.

At that time, the vast majority of Brits were very 'royalistic' , so it would hardly be correct to say the 'war' was based in nationalism.

The fact is, Germany, as it is today, was a very strong commercial competitor to the might of the British Empire, and was seeking to expand it's own imperial breadth.

Britain and France saw this as a threat to their dominance, and so ganged up to oppose the threat to their commercial well being.

The only bit of nationalism came from the flag waving generated by the press the editors of which pushed for all their might the propaganda created against German aspirations by the owners, and the rest of the ruling elite, who saw great danger to their capitalist cartels should gains be made b y their competition

The gullible Brits fell for it all, and paid the price by being mown down amongst the poppies of the Somme and elsewhere.
The descendants of those who died in that war, still fall for it all every year when they 'proudly' wear the replica poppies shoved in to their faces everywhere they turn around the beginning of November.

That is why there was such a gusher of support for the Falklands and Iraq, not to forget Korea an elsewhere,, for which the media, the Sun, Mail, etc all fanned the flames of glory , driven to so do, by the very descendants of those that drove their antecedents into the trenches of Flanders and the Somme.

I isolating a coin to carp about, I fear Dr Lloyd hits on an icon, when he should really be attacking the whole concept of warmongering.


The list is far too long, but a few could go a long way to start him off...

National anthems
Flags
Poppies.
Recurrent days celebrating the various famed ( or should that be infamous) battles,

National boundaries, the need to have passports,

Just picking on a coin, no doubt produced with all good intentions, hardly fits the bill when it comes to removing reminders of inglorious times.
[quote][p][bold]Katie Re-Registered[/bold] wrote: The main cause of the First World War was nationalism. Patriotism and being proud of your heritage and country is one thing but nationalism is pointless and stupid and from 1914 to 1945 it's a fairly basic fact of history that it only led to tragedy and then more tragedy.[/p][/quote]Mere months before that war, the British, people, press, politicians , were all behind the Kaiser, he being a close relative of the Royal families across Europe and Russia. At that time, the vast majority of Brits were very 'royalistic' , so it would hardly be correct to say the 'war' was based in nationalism. The fact is, Germany, as it is today, was a very strong commercial competitor to the might of the British Empire, and was seeking to expand it's own imperial breadth. Britain and France saw this as a threat to their dominance, and so ganged up to oppose the threat to their commercial well being. The only bit of nationalism came from the flag waving generated by the press the editors of which pushed for all their might the propaganda created against German aspirations by the owners, and the rest of the ruling elite, who saw great danger to their capitalist cartels should gains be made b y their competition The gullible Brits fell for it all, and paid the price by being mown down amongst the poppies of the Somme and elsewhere. The descendants of those who died in that war, still fall for it all every year when they 'proudly' wear the replica poppies shoved in to their faces everywhere they turn around the beginning of November. That is why there was such a gusher of support for the Falklands and Iraq, not to forget Korea an elsewhere,, for which the media, the Sun, Mail, etc all fanned the flames of glory , driven to so do, by the very descendants of those that drove their antecedents into the trenches of Flanders and the Somme. I isolating a coin to carp about, I fear Dr Lloyd hits on an icon, when he should really be attacking the whole concept of warmongering. The list is far too long, but a few could go a long way to start him off... National anthems Flags Poppies. Recurrent days celebrating the various famed ( or should that be infamous) battles, National boundaries, the need to have passports, Just picking on a coin, no doubt produced with all good intentions, hardly fits the bill when it comes to removing reminders of inglorious times. varteg1
  • Score: -2

9:53pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Frankfurt says...

Anyone who objects to this coin can sign an on-line petition if they wish, here.

http://www.change.or
g/en-GB/petitions/ro
yal-mint-replace-the
-kitchener-2-coin-wi
th-one-that-truly-co
mmemorates-the-milli
ons-who-died-in-the-
first-world-war
Anyone who objects to this coin can sign an on-line petition if they wish, here. http://www.change.or g/en-GB/petitions/ro yal-mint-replace-the -kitchener-2-coin-wi th-one-that-truly-co mmemorates-the-milli ons-who-died-in-the- first-world-war Frankfurt
  • Score: -3

12:11pm Thu 16 Jan 14

county mad says...

Frankfurt wrote:
Anyone who objects to this coin can sign an on-line petition if they wish, here.

http://www.change.or

g/en-GB/petitions/ro

yal-mint-replace-the

-kitchener-2-coin-wi

th-one-that-truly-co

mmemorates-the-milli

ons-who-died-in-the-

first-world-war
Dontcha just love the lefties they will object to anything and try to drag up anything to be contentious.
[quote][p][bold]Frankfurt[/bold] wrote: Anyone who objects to this coin can sign an on-line petition if they wish, here. http://www.change.or g/en-GB/petitions/ro yal-mint-replace-the -kitchener-2-coin-wi th-one-that-truly-co mmemorates-the-milli ons-who-died-in-the- first-world-war[/p][/quote]Dontcha just love the lefties they will object to anything and try to drag up anything to be contentious. county mad
  • Score: 5

1:43pm Thu 16 Jan 14

GeorgeapNada says...

Crossbenchtory - Your mention of 78 British and Dominion officers of the rank of Brigadier-General and above dying in combat represents 0.008% of the British military dead of 900,000. A further 1.6 million British troops were wounded.

Doesn't sound so much like equal opportunity slaughter now does it?

Anyway, we're both agreed on the horrendous nature of WW1 so we shouldn't be battling each other but the idiots on this message board that are happy for it to be glorified.
Crossbenchtory - Your mention of 78 British and Dominion officers of the rank of Brigadier-General and above dying in combat represents 0.008% of the British military dead of 900,000. A further 1.6 million British troops were wounded. Doesn't sound so much like equal opportunity slaughter now does it? Anyway, we're both agreed on the horrendous nature of WW1 so we shouldn't be battling each other but the idiots on this message board that are happy for it to be glorified. GeorgeapNada
  • Score: 0

6:15pm Thu 16 Jan 14

Crossbenchtory says...

GeorgeapNada wrote:
Crossbenchtory - Your mention of 78 British and Dominion officers of the rank of Brigadier-General and above dying in combat represents 0.008% of the British military dead of 900,000. A further 1.6 million British troops were wounded.

Doesn't sound so much like equal opportunity slaughter now does it?

Anyway, we're both agreed on the horrendous nature of WW1 so we shouldn't be battling each other but the idiots on this message board that are happy for it to be glorified.
You manage to misrepresent my meaning I assume, giving you the benefit of the doubt, by a lack of understanding rather than malice.

Whilst all war is abhorrent to any right thinking individual it is sometimes, as in 1914 & 1939, a necessary evil. Had I been running Britain in 1914, with the German Army sweeping through the Low Countries, including violating Belgian neutrality which we had guaranteed by Treaty, I too would have committed the BEF to the fight to stop them. Further to this I would have prosecuted the war in the same way the leadership of the British Army did, there was no other way.

Your figure of 0.008% is a wonderfully small figure, if you wish to try and make the discussion about how the evil toffs deliberately send the poor working class to the slaughter but it completely misses 2 vital pieces of information to make it even remotely valid. Firstly you completely exclude any representative percentage for Officers between the ranks of 2nd Lieutenant and Colonel and secondly, to be an honest representation as a percentage, you need to view the 78 as a percentage of General Rank Officers who served during WW1, to do anything else is overly simplistic and dishonest, but then that is what one would expect from the Left, simple dishonesty.

Finally, I am incredibly proud of my country, Great Britain, and it's Officers and Soldiers, including my Grandfather, who had the courage not only to stand up to German militarism but to endure and ultimately prevail.

LEST WE FORGET
[quote][p][bold]GeorgeapNada[/bold] wrote: Crossbenchtory - Your mention of 78 British and Dominion officers of the rank of Brigadier-General and above dying in combat represents 0.008% of the British military dead of 900,000. A further 1.6 million British troops were wounded. Doesn't sound so much like equal opportunity slaughter now does it? Anyway, we're both agreed on the horrendous nature of WW1 so we shouldn't be battling each other but the idiots on this message board that are happy for it to be glorified.[/p][/quote]You manage to misrepresent my meaning I assume, giving you the benefit of the doubt, by a lack of understanding rather than malice. Whilst all war is abhorrent to any right thinking individual it is sometimes, as in 1914 & 1939, a necessary evil. Had I been running Britain in 1914, with the German Army sweeping through the Low Countries, including violating Belgian neutrality which we had guaranteed by Treaty, I too would have committed the BEF to the fight to stop them. Further to this I would have prosecuted the war in the same way the leadership of the British Army did, there was no other way. Your figure of 0.008% is a wonderfully small figure, if you wish to try and make the discussion about how the evil toffs deliberately send the poor working class to the slaughter but it completely misses 2 vital pieces of information to make it even remotely valid. Firstly you completely exclude any representative percentage for Officers between the ranks of 2nd Lieutenant and Colonel and secondly, to be an honest representation as a percentage, you need to view the 78 as a percentage of General Rank Officers who served during WW1, to do anything else is overly simplistic and dishonest, but then that is what one would expect from the Left, simple dishonesty. Finally, I am incredibly proud of my country, Great Britain, and it's Officers and Soldiers, including my Grandfather, who had the courage not only to stand up to German militarism but to endure and ultimately prevail. LEST WE FORGET Crossbenchtory
  • Score: 3

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