Newport gypsy scheme faces scrutiny

Newport gypsy scheme faces scrutiny

Newport gypsy scheme faces scrutiny

First published in News
Last updated

HOW Newport council picked out gypsy and traveller site schemes in Newport is to be scrutinised by a planning inspector at a meeting next month.

Alwyn Nixon is holding a series of 18 meetings over April and May to discuss Newport council’s proposed local development plan (LDP).

But on April 8 the inspector will tackle the issue of the three proposed gypsy and traveller sites at Celtic Way, Hartridge and Ringland that have been included in the document.

Last year a group of councillors recommended that two gypsy sites at Hartridge Farm Road and Celtic Way should be included in the LDP, with a site proposed at Ringland Allotments as a back-up.

The Argus revealed last December that Tata Steel, two housing developers and a number of local businesses were among those who had objected to proposed gypsy sites in Newport.

Mr Nixon is set look at whether the stated need for 43 residential pitches by 2023 is consistent with an assessment in 2010 that 29 pitches were needed in Newport over the next 10 years — and if not, why it isn’t.

He will study why the plan seeks to meet all of the identified need for residential pitches on a single site at Hartridge Farm Road, said to be contrary to Welsh Government good practice.

The examination will explore what search and site selection methodology was followed to identify the sites, and whether the process was robust, objective and effective in considering all realistic alternatives.

The inspector will query whether the Celtic Way transit site proposal took into account the likely effects of the site on allocation of the surrounding area as a “prestige strategic employment area”.

How the sites will be developed, managed and funded will also be considered, among other issues.

Around 40 organisations and individuals, including Tata Steel and Natural Resources Wales, are set to speak at the meeting, which will take place at Newport civic centre.

Other meetings will look at the allocation in the plan for affordable housing and employment land, retail matters, the environment and heritage and alternative housing sites.

For more information and for the full list of meetings, visit newport.gov.uk/ldp

Comments (55)

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7:19am Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Queue all the angy people.......
Queue all the angy people....... GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -24

7:49am Thu 13 Mar 14

Llanmartinangel says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Queue all the angy people.......
You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Queue all the angy people.......[/p][/quote]You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 41

8:23am Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Queue all the angy people.......
You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.
Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Queue all the angy people.......[/p][/quote]You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.[/p][/quote]Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -24

8:26am Thu 13 Mar 14

Woodgnome says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Queue all the angy people.......
You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.
Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.
Pray tell us if you own your own home or rent GVM?
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Queue all the angy people.......[/p][/quote]You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.[/p][/quote]Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.[/p][/quote]Pray tell us if you own your own home or rent GVM? Woodgnome
  • Score: 10

8:35am Thu 13 Mar 14

Mervyn James says...

I foresee many Gypsies objecting to being housed in Newport personally, they were quite annoyed Bettws was suggested, (I'd be annoyed !), and thought the area was bad for their children and well-being.
I foresee many Gypsies objecting to being housed in Newport personally, they were quite annoyed Bettws was suggested, (I'd be annoyed !), and thought the area was bad for their children and well-being. Mervyn James
  • Score: -9

9:01am Thu 13 Mar 14

Llanmartinangel says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Queue all the angy people.......
You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.
Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.
Something you can't sell is worthless. I attended a public meeting where two estate agents said that they'd 'shudder' at the thought of trying to sell a property alongside a gypsy site. Why do you think house builders were so vociferous in their opposition?
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Queue all the angy people.......[/p][/quote]You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.[/p][/quote]Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.[/p][/quote]Something you can't sell is worthless. I attended a public meeting where two estate agents said that they'd 'shudder' at the thought of trying to sell a property alongside a gypsy site. Why do you think house builders were so vociferous in their opposition? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 24

9:24am Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Woodgnome wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Queue all the angy people.......
You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.
Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.
Pray tell us if you own your own home or rent GVM?
I rent - but if these houses truly are worthless, then I'll give the owners a fiver for them. Living near gypsies doesn't bother me. Unlike most of you lot, I've actually met and befriended many over the years and find them, for the most part, pretty decent people. But then, I'm not really susceptible to Daily Fail inspired fear and prejudice.
[quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Queue all the angy people.......[/p][/quote]You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.[/p][/quote]Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.[/p][/quote]Pray tell us if you own your own home or rent GVM?[/p][/quote]I rent - but if these houses truly are worthless, then I'll give the owners a fiver for them. Living near gypsies doesn't bother me. Unlike most of you lot, I've actually met and befriended many over the years and find them, for the most part, pretty decent people. But then, I'm not really susceptible to Daily Fail inspired fear and prejudice. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -35

9:49am Thu 13 Mar 14

Woodgnome says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Woodgnome wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
Queue all the angy people.......
You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.
Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.
Pray tell us if you own your own home or rent GVM?
I rent - but if these houses truly are worthless, then I'll give the owners a fiver for them. Living near gypsies doesn't bother me. Unlike most of you lot, I've actually met and befriended many over the years and find them, for the most part, pretty decent people. But then, I'm not really susceptible to Daily Fail inspired fear and prejudice.
With respect , based upon your vast experience of investment in house ownership, I don't think you are qualified to pass judgement. As you feel so strongly it's your prerogative to buy a house in Hartridge Farm Road at pre traveller site market value. I'm sure the seller would snatch your hand off.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Queue all the angy people.......[/p][/quote]You'd be angry if your house had been rendered worthless like those in Hartridge farm road.[/p][/quote]Worthless eh? I do hope that's not exaggeration.[/p][/quote]Pray tell us if you own your own home or rent GVM?[/p][/quote]I rent - but if these houses truly are worthless, then I'll give the owners a fiver for them. Living near gypsies doesn't bother me. Unlike most of you lot, I've actually met and befriended many over the years and find them, for the most part, pretty decent people. But then, I'm not really susceptible to Daily Fail inspired fear and prejudice.[/p][/quote]With respect , based upon your vast experience of investment in house ownership, I don't think you are qualified to pass judgement. As you feel so strongly it's your prerogative to buy a house in Hartridge Farm Road at pre traveller site market value. I'm sure the seller would snatch your hand off. Woodgnome
  • Score: 21

9:52am Thu 13 Mar 14

merlin the silure says...

"pretty decent people" check out the stats regarding the ratio of people from the gypsy/traveller community currently incarcerated in our prisons.Although no doubt they have all been fitted-up by the old bill.
"pretty decent people" check out the stats regarding the ratio of people from the gypsy/traveller community currently incarcerated in our prisons.Although no doubt they have all been fitted-up by the old bill. merlin the silure
  • Score: 21

10:11am Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

merlin the silure wrote:
"pretty decent people" check out the stats regarding the ratio of people from the gypsy/traveller community currently incarcerated in our prisons.Although no doubt they have all been fitted-up by the old bill.
Yep, I just did that. Seems like the Daily Fail thinks it's one in twenty of the prison population.

So, same as the number of female prisoners then. So by your rationale, I await your condemnation of women with breathless anticipation......

Also eagerly awaited is your righteous tirade against ex forces personnel, who, at one in ten of the prison population, are doubly likely to resort to crime it seems.
[quote][p][bold]merlin the silure[/bold] wrote: "pretty decent people" check out the stats regarding the ratio of people from the gypsy/traveller community currently incarcerated in our prisons.Although no doubt they have all been fitted-up by the old bill.[/p][/quote]Yep, I just did that. Seems like the Daily Fail thinks it's one in twenty of the prison population. So, same as the number of female prisoners then. So by your rationale, I await your condemnation of women with breathless anticipation...... Also eagerly awaited is your righteous tirade against ex forces personnel, who, at one in ten of the prison population, are doubly likely to resort to crime it seems. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -21

10:13am Thu 13 Mar 14

Howie' says...

merlin the silure wrote:
"pretty decent people" check out the stats regarding the ratio of people from the gypsy/traveller community currently incarcerated in our prisons.Although no doubt they have all been fitted-up by the old bill.
Good point, I read the figures yesterday.
[quote][p][bold]merlin the silure[/bold] wrote: "pretty decent people" check out the stats regarding the ratio of people from the gypsy/traveller community currently incarcerated in our prisons.Although no doubt they have all been fitted-up by the old bill.[/p][/quote]Good point, I read the figures yesterday. Howie'
  • Score: -1

10:17am Thu 13 Mar 14

whatintheworld says...

houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude.

good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job!
houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job! whatintheworld
  • Score: -15

10:37am Thu 13 Mar 14

Woodgnome says...

"houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude."
I think you would need to "go back" to the day prehistoric man found that a cave was warm and dry and he/she wanted to keep it!
"houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude." I think you would need to "go back" to the day prehistoric man found that a cave was warm and dry and he/she wanted to keep it! Woodgnome
  • Score: 15

10:51am Thu 13 Mar 14

Llanmartinangel says...

whatintheworld wrote:
houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude.

good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job!
Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.
[quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job![/p][/quote]Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 17

12:05pm Thu 13 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

Personally I think that house prices across the board could do with being reduced, as how can a house gain £25k in 50 years then jump a massive £150k in less than 7. Estate agents and who ever sets house prices need horse whipping and those that have paid over the odds for the true value of your house, "Suckers" springs to mind.

But on this subject I can see the view of those that don't want it in thier back yard, as lets face it gypsies aren't the most tidiest of people. Like GardenVarietyMushroo
m I have become freinds with some over the years but that still doesn't mean that I'd ever trust them or buy anything off them. On a personal level they treat you as you treat them, respect them and they'll respect you, dis respect them and they'll steal your gold teeth.

We've all see the mess that they leave behind when they are moved on from on illegal site, we've all seen the mess that is down at the permanent sites towards Cardiff or the one thats up near pontypool. This is what is going to effect the house prices etc etc. I don't mind being mates with them but wouldn't want to live with them or next to them unless they can respect me as a tidy/clean person and do the same.

Why can't we find them a few fields somewhere and give them that, do they have to live in a community that they are so different from. They have thier own little groups that they travel around in so how can they expect open arms welcoming them into a new comunity when they'll be given the site and provided with everything that they need and not have had to pay for it.
Personally I think that house prices across the board could do with being reduced, as how can a house gain £25k in 50 years then jump a massive £150k in less than 7. Estate agents and who ever sets house prices need horse whipping and those that have paid over the odds for the true value of your house, "Suckers" springs to mind. But on this subject I can see the view of those that don't want it in thier back yard, as lets face it gypsies aren't the most tidiest of people. Like GardenVarietyMushroo m I have become freinds with some over the years but that still doesn't mean that I'd ever trust them or buy anything off them. On a personal level they treat you as you treat them, respect them and they'll respect you, dis respect them and they'll steal your gold teeth. We've all see the mess that they leave behind when they are moved on from on illegal site, we've all seen the mess that is down at the permanent sites towards Cardiff or the one thats up near pontypool. This is what is going to effect the house prices etc etc. I don't mind being mates with them but wouldn't want to live with them or next to them unless they can respect me as a tidy/clean person and do the same. Why can't we find them a few fields somewhere and give them that, do they have to live in a community that they are so different from. They have thier own little groups that they travel around in so how can they expect open arms welcoming them into a new comunity when they'll be given the site and provided with everything that they need and not have had to pay for it. grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: 6

12:44pm Thu 13 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats.

If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies.

So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy.

So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies.

4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.
I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats. If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies. So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy. So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies. 4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now. grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: -1

1:08pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

grumpyandopinionated wrote:
I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats.

If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies.

So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy.

So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies.

4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.
Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system.

Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.
[quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats. If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies. So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy. So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies. 4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.[/p][/quote]Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system. Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -11

1:52pm Thu 13 Mar 14

whatintheworld says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
whatintheworld wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job!
Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.
i rent because i cant afford to buy, because people in this country are obsessed with buying/selling houses.

it used to be that the average house price was a few times your annual income. now its plainly unaffordable.

only an idiot would encourage this madness. talk about pulling the ladder up behind you!
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job![/p][/quote]Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.[/p][/quote]i rent because i cant afford to buy, because people in this country are obsessed with buying/selling houses. it used to be that the average house price was a few times your annual income. now its plainly unaffordable. only an idiot would encourage this madness. talk about pulling the ladder up behind you! whatintheworld
  • Score: -7

1:54pm Thu 13 Mar 14

whatintheworld says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
whatintheworld wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job!
Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.
and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market!
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job![/p][/quote]Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.[/p][/quote]and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market! whatintheworld
  • Score: -5

2:13pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GogExile says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats.

If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies.

So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy.

So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies.

4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.
Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system.

Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.
I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats. If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies. So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy. So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies. 4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.[/p][/quote]Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system. Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.[/p][/quote]I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either. GogExile
  • Score: 13

2:44pm Thu 13 Mar 14

newporteast says...

How come the three Ringland councillors did not pick this up before it went to the LDP? They are living in Ringland so they should have scrutinized the Gypsy and traveller site plan. That’s what you get for voting Labour
How come the three Ringland councillors did not pick this up before it went to the LDP? They are living in Ringland so they should have scrutinized the Gypsy and traveller site plan. That’s what you get for voting Labour newporteast
  • Score: 5

3:26pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

GogExile wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats.

If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies.

So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy.

So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies.

4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.
Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system.

Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.
I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either.
You just prove my point - that it's ridiculous to call into question someone's decency purely by saying that others from the same group end up in prison.

BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant.

Oh, and Gypsies pay tax too.

Oh, and many Gypsies buy their own land
[quote][p][bold]GogExile[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats. If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies. So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy. So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies. 4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.[/p][/quote]Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system. Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.[/p][/quote]I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either.[/p][/quote]You just prove my point - that it's ridiculous to call into question someone's decency purely by saying that others from the same group end up in prison. BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant. Oh, and Gypsies pay tax too. Oh, and many Gypsies buy their own land GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -13

3:26pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

whatintheworld wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
whatintheworld wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job!
Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.
and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market!
Haha - true dat!
[quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job![/p][/quote]Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.[/p][/quote]and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market![/p][/quote]Haha - true dat! GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -12

4:30pm Thu 13 Mar 14

Llanmartinangel says...

whatintheworld wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
whatintheworld wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job!
Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.
and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market!
I meant that renting is a luxury to being placed in negative equity by an incompetent council. If you were renting in Hartridge you could give notice and move. If you're stuck with a four-bedder you can't sell and a mortgage you can now not pay off you're stuffed. But then I didn't expect a Socialist to understand basic economics, they never do. And by the way, unless you are renting at subsidised taxpayer expense, then someone is paying a mortgage on your gaff as well.
[quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job![/p][/quote]Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.[/p][/quote]and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market![/p][/quote]I meant that renting is a luxury to being placed in negative equity by an incompetent council. If you were renting in Hartridge you could give notice and move. If you're stuck with a four-bedder you can't sell and a mortgage you can now not pay off you're stuffed. But then I didn't expect a Socialist to understand basic economics, they never do. And by the way, unless you are renting at subsidised taxpayer expense, then someone is paying a mortgage on your gaff as well. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 7

5:05pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GogExile says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
GogExile wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats.

If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies.

So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy.

So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies.

4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.
Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system.

Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.
I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either.
You just prove my point - that it's ridiculous to call into question someone's decency purely by saying that others from the same group end up in prison.

BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant.

Oh, and Gypsies pay tax too.

Oh, and many Gypsies buy their own land
The Armed Forces Covenant is for SERVING members of the Armed Forces. It exists to enshrine the Government's duty to provide service personnel with appropriate equipment, training etc following needless deaths and injuries due to substandard equipment. It has nothing to do with provision for ex-servicemen. So they don't 'in fact expect preferential treatment'. Just because you state it's a fact doesn't make it so.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GogExile[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats. If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies. So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy. So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies. 4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.[/p][/quote]Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system. Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.[/p][/quote]I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either.[/p][/quote]You just prove my point - that it's ridiculous to call into question someone's decency purely by saying that others from the same group end up in prison. BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant. Oh, and Gypsies pay tax too. Oh, and many Gypsies buy their own land[/p][/quote]The Armed Forces Covenant is for SERVING members of the Armed Forces. It exists to enshrine the Government's duty to provide service personnel with appropriate equipment, training etc following needless deaths and injuries due to substandard equipment. It has nothing to do with provision for ex-servicemen. So they don't 'in fact expect preferential treatment'. Just because you state it's a fact doesn't make it so. GogExile
  • Score: 3

5:15pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Wrong.

The Armed Forces Community is defined for the purposes of the Covenant. It includes Regular personnel, Reservists, veterans and families, including those of the bereaved. The term family refers to the immediate family and is defined as spouses, civil partners and children. Where appropriate, this can be extended to parents, unmarried partners and other family members.
Wrong. The Armed Forces Community is defined for the purposes of the Covenant. It includes Regular personnel, Reservists, veterans and families, including those of the bereaved. The term family refers to the immediate family and is defined as spouses, civil partners and children. Where appropriate, this can be extended to parents, unmarried partners and other family members. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -11

6:06pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GogExile says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Wrong.

The Armed Forces Community is defined for the purposes of the Covenant. It includes Regular personnel, Reservists, veterans and families, including those of the bereaved. The term family refers to the immediate family and is defined as spouses, civil partners and children. Where appropriate, this can be extended to parents, unmarried partners and other family members.
"Those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether Regular or Reserve, those
who have served in the past, and their families, should face no disadvantage
compared to other citizens in the provision of public and commercial
services. Special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for
those who have given most such as the injured and the bereaved"

I see you copied the paragraph that seems to disprove my definition (I based mine on the initial reasons for creating the covenant) but decided against copying the paragraph (above) that totally debunks your opinion that Ex Service personnel 'expect preferential treatment'. Unless of course you feel medical and financial assistance for limbless veterans 'preferential'? It's no more so than Employer Liability Insurance.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Wrong. The Armed Forces Community is defined for the purposes of the Covenant. It includes Regular personnel, Reservists, veterans and families, including those of the bereaved. The term family refers to the immediate family and is defined as spouses, civil partners and children. Where appropriate, this can be extended to parents, unmarried partners and other family members.[/p][/quote]"Those who serve in the Armed Forces, whether Regular or Reserve, those who have served in the past, and their families, should face no disadvantage compared to other citizens in the provision of public and commercial services. Special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given most such as the injured and the bereaved" I see you copied the paragraph that seems to disprove my definition (I based mine on the initial reasons for creating the covenant) but decided against copying the paragraph (above) that totally debunks your opinion that Ex Service personnel 'expect preferential treatment'. Unless of course you feel medical and financial assistance for limbless veterans 'preferential'? It's no more so than Employer Liability Insurance. GogExile
  • Score: 3

6:29pm Thu 13 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

I was under the impression that you were referring to the military covenant - which is as you described and different to the armed forces covenant.

If I got it wrong then I apologise.

It amounts to a lot more than simple employer liability insurance. In fact, if you do a google search and quick scan the results - almost every hit says something like 'not about special treatment' or 'not about preferential treatment' - which to me, means that's exactly what it's about - regardless of the fact that it's so obviously what it's all about.
I was under the impression that you were referring to the military covenant - which is as you described and different to the armed forces covenant. If I got it wrong then I apologise. It amounts to a lot more than simple employer liability insurance. In fact, if you do a google search and quick scan the results - almost every hit says something like 'not about special treatment' or 'not about preferential treatment' - which to me, means that's exactly what it's about - regardless of the fact that it's so obviously what it's all about. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -10

6:51pm Thu 13 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
I was under the impression that you were referring to the military covenant - which is as you described and different to the armed forces covenant.

If I got it wrong then I apologise.

It amounts to a lot more than simple employer liability insurance. In fact, if you do a google search and quick scan the results - almost every hit says something like 'not about special treatment' or 'not about preferential treatment' - which to me, means that's exactly what it's about - regardless of the fact that it's so obviously what it's all about.
Can you explain to me exactly what is the issue here? Are you saying that the soilders that have fought for and defended this country in past or the present is not entitled to be treated differently in the sense that oh I don't know they are rewarded for thier bravery. It may be a job or how ever you see it but these guys still go and do this job, knowing that at the end of it they can expect to have what ever the covenant awards them.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: I was under the impression that you were referring to the military covenant - which is as you described and different to the armed forces covenant. If I got it wrong then I apologise. It amounts to a lot more than simple employer liability insurance. In fact, if you do a google search and quick scan the results - almost every hit says something like 'not about special treatment' or 'not about preferential treatment' - which to me, means that's exactly what it's about - regardless of the fact that it's so obviously what it's all about.[/p][/quote]Can you explain to me exactly what is the issue here? Are you saying that the soilders that have fought for and defended this country in past or the present is not entitled to be treated differently in the sense that oh I don't know they are rewarded for thier bravery. It may be a job or how ever you see it but these guys still go and do this job, knowing that at the end of it they can expect to have what ever the covenant awards them. grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: 3

1:26am Fri 14 Mar 14

Spinflight says...

"BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant"

Due to the nature of their job ex forces personnel sometimes need protecting from attitudes such as your own, without it they might face difficulties in getting their children into a local school for example.

Why should the children of someone who has put their life on the line suffer from bizarre bigotry once their father returns to civilian life?

Frankly it says a lot about yourself, and society as a whole, that it is needed at all.

I assume you are joking or trolling when you liken ex-services to gypsies. Whether an ex serviceman or a civilian parked a caravan on unsuitable land and demanded a right to live there at the expense of the local population the result would be the same - a swift foxtrot oscar from the plod.

If however you called yourself a traveler then the local councilors would bend over backwards to accommodate. They would probably provide the lube at taxpayers expense.

This isn't merely the perception, but the letter of the law. It angers people because it smashes the fundamental concept of the British people- that of equality under the law - to smithereens; drives a coach and horses through our social law and makes a mockery of our constitution as enshrined in Magna Carta.

Remarkably little of the armed services covenant is enshrined in law, it is merely a documentary recognition of the social norms which only the distinctly odd disagree with.

The elevated rights and 'positive discrimination' applied to travelers on the other hand has no basis in social law, no elected representative has ever stood on a platform and asked for your vote advocating such, and yet has become legislation behind our backs and against our wishes.

Instead of inalienable rights, only the aliens have rights.

I don't recall any gypsies seeking to be elected in order to grant themselves unequal status, nor frankly do I recall any great groundswell of popular opinion ( outside of Islington, London ) which pushed for such measures. There was, in short, no democratic mandate for such changes to be made.

The people who line up to board the outrage bus therefore have every right to be angry. Frankly it is arguably their patriotic duty to show their contempt for those who have desecrated the social norms and traditions of the country that they love.

You, on the other hand, appear to be quite content to sneer at the views of the little people and cast aspersions against those who have served their country. You welcome the migration of alien cultures into our own and even hold them to be in some way superior company.

You have all of the qualities required to be a labour MP. Please do not take this as a compliment.

ukipnewport.com
"BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant" Due to the nature of their job ex forces personnel sometimes need protecting from attitudes such as your own, without it they might face difficulties in getting their children into a local school for example. Why should the children of someone who has put their life on the line suffer from bizarre bigotry once their father returns to civilian life? Frankly it says a lot about yourself, and society as a whole, that it is needed at all. I assume you are joking or trolling when you liken ex-services to gypsies. Whether an ex serviceman or a civilian parked a caravan on unsuitable land and demanded a right to live there at the expense of the local population the result would be the same - a swift foxtrot oscar from the plod. If however you called yourself a traveler then the local councilors would bend over backwards to accommodate. They would probably provide the lube at taxpayers expense. This isn't merely the perception, but the letter of the law. It angers people because it smashes the fundamental concept of the British people- that of equality under the law - to smithereens; drives a coach and horses through our social law and makes a mockery of our constitution as enshrined in Magna Carta. Remarkably little of the armed services covenant is enshrined in law, it is merely a documentary recognition of the social norms which only the distinctly odd disagree with. The elevated rights and 'positive discrimination' applied to travelers on the other hand has no basis in social law, no elected representative has ever stood on a platform and asked for your vote advocating such, and yet has become legislation behind our backs and against our wishes. Instead of inalienable rights, only the aliens have rights. I don't recall any gypsies seeking to be elected in order to grant themselves unequal status, nor frankly do I recall any great groundswell of popular opinion ( outside of Islington, London ) which pushed for such measures. There was, in short, no democratic mandate for such changes to be made. The people who line up to board the outrage bus therefore have every right to be angry. Frankly it is arguably their patriotic duty to show their contempt for those who have desecrated the social norms and traditions of the country that they love. You, on the other hand, appear to be quite content to sneer at the views of the little people and cast aspersions against those who have served their country. You welcome the migration of alien cultures into our own and even hold them to be in some way superior company. You have all of the qualities required to be a labour MP. Please do not take this as a compliment. ukipnewport.com Spinflight
  • Score: -1

6:39am Fri 14 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down.

Credit where it's due though. That has to be the most articulate piece of twaddle I've read for quite some time. And the part where you squeeze patriotic duty and contempt into the same sentence actually made me laugh out loud. Good job it was right near the end of your ridiculous diatribe because I almost stopped reading.

I'm really not sure how you could be more of a walking, talking cliché. Well done. And thanks for the giggle.

www.gayrainandbongob
ongoland.com
Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. Credit where it's due though. That has to be the most articulate piece of twaddle I've read for quite some time. And the part where you squeeze patriotic duty and contempt into the same sentence actually made me laugh out loud. Good job it was right near the end of your ridiculous diatribe because I almost stopped reading. I'm really not sure how you could be more of a walking, talking cliché. Well done. And thanks for the giggle. www.gayrainandbongob ongoland.com GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -4

11:07am Fri 14 Mar 14

whatintheworld says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
whatintheworld wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
whatintheworld wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job!
Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.
and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market!
I meant that renting is a luxury to being placed in negative equity by an incompetent council. If you were renting in Hartridge you could give notice and move. If you're stuck with a four-bedder you can't sell and a mortgage you can now not pay off you're stuffed. But then I didn't expect a Socialist to understand basic economics, they never do. And by the way, unless you are renting at subsidised taxpayer expense, then someone is paying a mortgage on your gaff as well.
you have pigeon-holed me as a socialist with-out any rhyme nor reason. as a result you have discredited anything i have to have on economics.

you need to open your mind and understand that people have different opinions to yours. you dont need to make snap judgements about their political views and level of education.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: houses are for living in, they're not supposed to be treated as an asset. i wish we could all go back to this attitude. good job on pulling up the stats for gypsy prison population mushroom; saved me a job![/p][/quote]Someone else who rents and presumably has the luxury of not being in negative equity and therefore unable to move house.[/p][/quote]and if you think paying extortianate rates for rent is a "luxury", i invite you to sell your brick-box and take a look at the market![/p][/quote]I meant that renting is a luxury to being placed in negative equity by an incompetent council. If you were renting in Hartridge you could give notice and move. If you're stuck with a four-bedder you can't sell and a mortgage you can now not pay off you're stuffed. But then I didn't expect a Socialist to understand basic economics, they never do. And by the way, unless you are renting at subsidised taxpayer expense, then someone is paying a mortgage on your gaff as well.[/p][/quote]you have pigeon-holed me as a socialist with-out any rhyme nor reason. as a result you have discredited anything i have to have on economics. you need to open your mind and understand that people have different opinions to yours. you dont need to make snap judgements about their political views and level of education. whatintheworld
  • Score: -2

12:35pm Fri 14 Mar 14

Spinflight says...

"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. "

Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.
"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. " Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies. Spinflight
  • Score: 6

1:01pm Fri 14 Mar 14

Votefornoneoftheabove says...

Perhaps one of the best comments comes from Newport Really Matters, I would normally send the link but have decided to copy and paste the comments for you all to read.

""The honeymoon period is truly over for Newport Labour.

Since May 2012 when the city “turned red” it has lurched from crisis to crisis . There are actually too many to list, but library closures, the destruction of the Chartist mural, the ending of support for the mediaeval ship, a joke of a bus station, an unfinished market, crumbling infrastructure - and now gypsy sites are rearing their heads again.

Incompetent handling

It was only a matter of time before Labour’s incompetent handling of the gypsy sites issue came back to bite them. And now it has.

Labour returned to power after four years in opposition. To say they weren’t used to this position is an understatement and anyone reading this blog will be familiar with reports of their childish behaviour during those years.

One of their first moves on regaining control of the council was to throw out five very sensible and considered sites for gypsies and travellers, put forward by the Lib Dem/Tory coalition.

Best sites

The leadership of the day spent many months assessing sites for inclusion in Newport’s local development plan. It wasn’t easy and decisions were not taken lightly. The sites were deemed to be the best when all the criteria were considered.

And then came the election. Labour promised the public that they should have a say on the matter and went out to consultation.

The result was that Hartridge (with its estimated £5 million price tag), Ringland and Celtic Horizons were selected as sites for gypsy and traveller homes.

Now Newport is to face scrutiny by the Welsh planning inspector to find out how the decision was arrived at.

Methodology

The inspector will also look at the way the “search and site” methodology was followed to identify the sites and whether the process was “robust, objective and effective” in considering all reasonable alternatives.

Unfortunately, Labour’s process was flawed and relied on the public to do the job they’re paid to do.

Populist

Calm deliberation and proper consideration played no part

In short it was a populist stunt to remind the previous administration just who runs this city.

Their hubris has back-fired."

I think that says it all regarding Newport City Council since 2012, bearing in mind that the man who asked for the sites to be looked at again was Bob Bright councillor for Ringland ward where the new proposed sites have been suggested.

My how glad they are that they voted for you and your near £50k allowance per annum you receive?
Perhaps one of the best comments comes from Newport Really Matters, I would normally send the link but have decided to copy and paste the comments for you all to read. ""The honeymoon period is truly over for Newport Labour. Since May 2012 when the city “turned red” it has lurched from crisis to crisis . There are actually too many to list, but library closures, the destruction of the Chartist mural, the ending of support for the mediaeval ship, a joke of a bus station, an unfinished market, crumbling infrastructure - and now gypsy sites are rearing their heads again. Incompetent handling It was only a matter of time before Labour’s incompetent handling of the gypsy sites issue came back to bite them. And now it has. Labour returned to power after four years in opposition. To say they weren’t used to this position is an understatement and anyone reading this blog will be familiar with reports of their childish behaviour during those years. One of their first moves on regaining control of the council was to throw out five very sensible and considered sites for gypsies and travellers, put forward by the Lib Dem/Tory coalition. Best sites The leadership of the day spent many months assessing sites for inclusion in Newport’s local development plan. It wasn’t easy and decisions were not taken lightly. The sites were deemed to be the best when all the criteria were considered. And then came the election. Labour promised the public that they should have a say on the matter and went out to consultation. The result was that Hartridge (with its estimated £5 million price tag), Ringland and Celtic Horizons were selected as sites for gypsy and traveller homes. Now Newport is to face scrutiny by the Welsh planning inspector to find out how the decision was arrived at. Methodology The inspector will also look at the way the “search and site” methodology was followed to identify the sites and whether the process was “robust, objective and effective” in considering all reasonable alternatives. Unfortunately, Labour’s process was flawed and relied on the public to do the job they’re paid to do. Populist Calm deliberation and proper consideration played no part In short it was a populist stunt to remind the previous administration just who runs this city. Their hubris has back-fired." I think that says it all regarding Newport City Council since 2012, bearing in mind that the man who asked for the sites to be looked at again was Bob Bright councillor for Ringland ward where the new proposed sites have been suggested. My how glad they are that they voted for you and your near £50k allowance per annum you receive? Votefornoneoftheabove
  • Score: 6

1:27pm Fri 14 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Spinflight wrote:
"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. "

Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.
You would imply - it's me that infers.

And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism.

www. Imnotracistbut.com
[quote][p][bold]Spinflight[/bold] wrote: "Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. " Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.[/p][/quote]You would imply - it's me that infers. And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism. www. Imnotracistbut.com GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -4

5:01pm Fri 14 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Spinflight wrote:
"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. "

Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.
You would imply - it's me that infers.

And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism.

www. Imnotracistbut.com
Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo
m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Spinflight[/bold] wrote: "Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. " Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.[/p][/quote]You would imply - it's me that infers. And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism. www. Imnotracistbut.com[/p][/quote]Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support??? grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: 5

5:53pm Fri 14 Mar 14

lowandhardandinthecorner says...

Let's just cut to the chase. Why not have a ballot in each ward which asks if they want a gypsy encampment in their area with only a "yes" box on the form, the one with the most "yes" votes gets one. You wouldn't need to print too many ballot papers I'm guessing.
That's the problem in a nutshell and to those who cite prejudice against so called "travellers", just ask yourself why so many people feel that way. It may be because they've experienced the filth left behind when an illegal camp has been sited near where they live. It's as simple as that. Perhaps if travellers actually travelled there'd be less of a problem.
Let's just cut to the chase. Why not have a ballot in each ward which asks if they want a gypsy encampment in their area with only a "yes" box on the form, the one with the most "yes" votes gets one. You wouldn't need to print too many ballot papers I'm guessing. That's the problem in a nutshell and to those who cite prejudice against so called "travellers", just ask yourself why so many people feel that way. It may be because they've experienced the filth left behind when an illegal camp has been sited near where they live. It's as simple as that. Perhaps if travellers actually travelled there'd be less of a problem. lowandhardandinthecorner
  • Score: 10

7:57pm Fri 14 Mar 14

Spinflight says...

"You would imply - it's me that infers."

My usage and grammar was correct.

"And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism."

Point to them - copy and paste it - explain yourself. In short prove it. Should be an easy task given my comment was 'riddled' with references.

My contempt is clearly saved for those elected scumbags who have forced the situation upon us.

I'm guessing from your attitude that you are one of these scumbags. Do you hold a position within the council?
"You would imply - it's me that infers." My usage and grammar was correct. "And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism." Point to them - copy and paste it - explain yourself. In short prove it. Should be an easy task given my comment was 'riddled' with references. My contempt is clearly saved for those elected scumbags who have forced the situation upon us. I'm guessing from your attitude that you are one of these scumbags. Do you hold a position within the council? Spinflight
  • Score: 4

8:23pm Fri 14 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

I'm still dumbfounded why we need to provide them with a site anyways. Who says that we have too?

Nobody wants them and they should take notice of this, there is a reason behind it and it is certainly not thier charming personalities. They are not all rotten eggs but the majority are.
I'm still dumbfounded why we need to provide them with a site anyways. Who says that we have too? Nobody wants them and they should take notice of this, there is a reason behind it and it is certainly not thier charming personalities. They are not all rotten eggs but the majority are. grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: 11

8:30pm Fri 14 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

grumpyandopinionated wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Spinflight wrote:
"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. "

Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.
You would imply - it's me that infers.

And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism.

www. Imnotracistbut.com
Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo

m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???
Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back.
[quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Spinflight[/bold] wrote: "Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. " Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.[/p][/quote]You would imply - it's me that infers. And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism. www. Imnotracistbut.com[/p][/quote]Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???[/p][/quote]Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -7

8:40pm Fri 14 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Spinflight wrote:
"You would imply - it's me that infers."

My usage and grammar was correct.

"And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism."

Point to them - copy and paste it - explain yourself. In short prove it. Should be an easy task given my comment was 'riddled' with references.

My contempt is clearly saved for those elected scumbags who have forced the situation upon us.

I'm guessing from your attitude that you are one of these scumbags. Do you hold a position within the council?
"You would imply - it's me that infers." My usage and grammar was correct.

Nooooo it wasn't. Try this link.
http://blog.oxforddi
ctionaries.com/2011/
10/imply-or-infer/

Point to them - copy and paste it - explain yourself. In short prove it. Should be an easy task given my comment was 'riddled' with references

Mate, if you can't see it, I'm not going to pick the whole thing apart line by line for you. Paragraphs 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and 13 of your comment all contain arguments from which I infer, (you should know what that means now), that you don't like gypsies.

I'm guessing from your attitude that you are one of these scumbags. Do you hold a position within the council?

Lol - that's the second laugh you've given me today. No, I'm not elected to anything, nor do I work for the council. Anarchists, as a pretty unshakeable rule, don't tend to seek public office. It kind of goes against everything we stand for.

www. kipperswith twistedknickers .com
[quote][p][bold]Spinflight[/bold] wrote: "You would imply - it's me that infers." My usage and grammar was correct. "And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism." Point to them - copy and paste it - explain yourself. In short prove it. Should be an easy task given my comment was 'riddled' with references. My contempt is clearly saved for those elected scumbags who have forced the situation upon us. I'm guessing from your attitude that you are one of these scumbags. Do you hold a position within the council?[/p][/quote][quote]"You would imply - it's me that infers." My usage and grammar was correct. [/quote] Nooooo it wasn't. Try this link. http://blog.oxforddi ctionaries.com/2011/ 10/imply-or-infer/ [quote] Point to them - copy and paste it - explain yourself. In short prove it. Should be an easy task given my comment was 'riddled' with references[/quote] Mate, if you can't see it, I'm not going to pick the whole thing apart line by line for you. Paragraphs 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and 13 of your comment all contain arguments from which I infer, (you should know what that means now), that you don't like gypsies. [quote] I'm guessing from your attitude that you are one of these scumbags. Do you hold a position within the council?[/quote] Lol - that's the second laugh you've given me today. No, I'm not elected to anything, nor do I work for the council. Anarchists, as a pretty unshakeable rule, don't tend to seek public office. It kind of goes against everything we stand for. www. kipperswith twistedknickers .com GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -8

12:16am Sat 15 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
Spinflight wrote:
"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. "

Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.
You would imply - it's me that infers.

And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism.

www. Imnotracistbut.com
Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo


m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???
Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back.
But I understand noting of your deranged comments about the armed forces or the community covenents that now exist.

These have nothing todo with gypsies? The covenants have been created to break down any barriers that may exist when forces personel are moved from town to town as required by thier jobs or by those that I assume are resettling into areas after thier contracts with the army has come to an end. I just don't see how or why you can compare this with gypsies that have done nothing for society apart from rip them off over tarmac and paving work and want the public to build them a camp site at the cost of the public?
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Spinflight[/bold] wrote: "Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. " Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.[/p][/quote]You would imply - it's me that infers. And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism. www. Imnotracistbut.com[/p][/quote]Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???[/p][/quote]Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back.[/p][/quote]But I understand noting of your deranged comments about the armed forces or the community covenents that now exist. These have nothing todo with gypsies? The covenants have been created to break down any barriers that may exist when forces personel are moved from town to town as required by thier jobs or by those that I assume are resettling into areas after thier contracts with the army has come to an end. I just don't see how or why you can compare this with gypsies that have done nothing for society apart from rip them off over tarmac and paving work and want the public to build them a camp site at the cost of the public? grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: 4

1:30am Sat 15 Mar 14

peterscott1955 says...

Interesting to read the vitriolic bull awash my here. Ok well here's mine. A comment was made that bring a socialist meant that one would not have an understanding if economics. Interesting thought since the greatest economic thinkers were in general socialist. John Maynard Keynes for example was one if the great economists if the twentieth century and a socialist, who incidentally would be horrified to know that Thatcher Mr used his economic planning to dig herself out if the hole that she dug using Adam Smith Institute processes. Socialist economic theory is a good counter to greed and the call for renationalisation of the family silver so readily given away by the tories is evidence of that.
Moving on to travellers. I live near a settled traveller site. Lovely polite and very clean people who are about to be forced into a council mixed site. They tell me that they will not mix with Irish travellers as they bring trouble, theft and violence. They said that 'english' travellers do not mix with other traveller groups and definitely not the Irish. I can take them at their word as I am no expert, however my local authority us about to build a site that the local traveller community do not want. They are building to the laid down specification for a 15 - 22 pitch site ( which in reality means around 45 vans). The standard site costs £2.5 MILLION to build. So my question to you us this. Newport City Council has consistently over the past 30 years started projects and not completed them as they have run out if money. So how on earth will they afford £5 million to out two sites in Ringland. And where is the funding for the additional policing that I am advised by my local traveller community, will be needed to deal with the problems that will ensue? You really need to be asking your councillors these question before it's too late.......
Interesting to read the vitriolic bull awash my here. Ok well here's mine. A comment was made that bring a socialist meant that one would not have an understanding if economics. Interesting thought since the greatest economic thinkers were in general socialist. John Maynard Keynes for example was one if the great economists if the twentieth century and a socialist, who incidentally would be horrified to know that Thatcher Mr used his economic planning to dig herself out if the hole that she dug using Adam Smith Institute processes. Socialist economic theory is a good counter to greed and the call for renationalisation of the family silver so readily given away by the tories is evidence of that. Moving on to travellers. I live near a settled traveller site. Lovely polite and very clean people who are about to be forced into a council mixed site. They tell me that they will not mix with Irish travellers as they bring trouble, theft and violence. They said that 'english' travellers do not mix with other traveller groups and definitely not the Irish. I can take them at their word as I am no expert, however my local authority us about to build a site that the local traveller community do not want. They are building to the laid down specification for a 15 - 22 pitch site ( which in reality means around 45 vans). The standard site costs £2.5 MILLION to build. So my question to you us this. Newport City Council has consistently over the past 30 years started projects and not completed them as they have run out if money. So how on earth will they afford £5 million to out two sites in Ringland. And where is the funding for the additional policing that I am advised by my local traveller community, will be needed to deal with the problems that will ensue? You really need to be asking your councillors these question before it's too late....... peterscott1955
  • Score: 1

1:11pm Sat 15 Mar 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

grumpyandopinionated wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
Spinflight wrote:
"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. "

Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.
You would imply - it's me that infers.

And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism.

www. Imnotracistbut.com
Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo



m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???
Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back.
But I understand noting of your deranged comments about the armed forces or the community covenents that now exist.

These have nothing todo with gypsies? The covenants have been created to break down any barriers that may exist when forces personel are moved from town to town as required by thier jobs or by those that I assume are resettling into areas after thier contracts with the army has come to an end. I just don't see how or why you can compare this with gypsies that have done nothing for society apart from rip them off over tarmac and paving work and want the public to build them a camp site at the cost of the public?
I was just pointing out to Merlin the silure it was daft to imply that, despite my personal experience to the contrary, no traveller could be decent because so many were in prison.

There are twice as many troops as travellers banged up. That's a fact. And most people would think it absurd to suggest that ex forces can't be decent people because of that. Most people that is exept merlin apparently, if we're to believe his conclusion is based on logic and not prejudice.

Then GogExile got completely the wrong end of the stick and went all ranty ranty, making all sorts of comparisons between ex services and travellers that I wasn't making, one of them being that ex military don't expect/get special treatment, which I then argued wasn't true and citing the armed forces covenant as evidence.

Then some other people, in an almost Pythonesque fashion, on the one hand started attacking travellers, and on the other defended against imagined attacks against the military. Proving nothing to me really except how prejudiced some people are about travellers, how ridiculously over sensitive when they think people are 'dissing the troops' - regardless of whether anyone actually is or not - and how hypocritical they can be when it suits them.

And so, here we are.
[quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Spinflight[/bold] wrote: "Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. " Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.[/p][/quote]You would imply - it's me that infers. And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism. www. Imnotracistbut.com[/p][/quote]Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???[/p][/quote]Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back.[/p][/quote]But I understand noting of your deranged comments about the armed forces or the community covenents that now exist. These have nothing todo with gypsies? The covenants have been created to break down any barriers that may exist when forces personel are moved from town to town as required by thier jobs or by those that I assume are resettling into areas after thier contracts with the army has come to an end. I just don't see how or why you can compare this with gypsies that have done nothing for society apart from rip them off over tarmac and paving work and want the public to build them a camp site at the cost of the public?[/p][/quote]I was just pointing out to Merlin the silure it was daft to imply that, despite my personal experience to the contrary, no traveller could be decent because so many were in prison. There are twice as many troops as travellers banged up. That's a fact. And most people would think it absurd to suggest that ex forces can't be decent people because of that. Most people that is exept merlin apparently, if we're to believe his conclusion is based on logic and not prejudice. Then GogExile got completely the wrong end of the stick and went all ranty ranty, making all sorts of comparisons between ex services and travellers that I wasn't making, one of them being that ex military don't expect/get special treatment, which I then argued wasn't true and citing the armed forces covenant as evidence. Then some other people, in an almost Pythonesque fashion, on the one hand started attacking travellers, and on the other defended against imagined attacks against the military. Proving nothing to me really except how prejudiced some people are about travellers, how ridiculously over sensitive when they think people are 'dissing the troops' - regardless of whether anyone actually is or not - and how hypocritical they can be when it suits them. And so, here we are. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: -5

1:48pm Sat 15 Mar 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

grumpyandopinionated wrote:
Personally I think that house prices across the board could do with being reduced, as how can a house gain £25k in 50 years then jump a massive £150k in less than 7. Estate agents and who ever sets house prices need horse whipping and those that have paid over the odds for the true value of your house, "Suckers" springs to mind.

But on this subject I can see the view of those that don't want it in thier back yard, as lets face it gypsies aren't the most tidiest of people. Like GardenVarietyMushroo

m I have become freinds with some over the years but that still doesn't mean that I'd ever trust them or buy anything off them. On a personal level they treat you as you treat them, respect them and they'll respect you, dis respect them and they'll steal your gold teeth.

We've all see the mess that they leave behind when they are moved on from on illegal site, we've all seen the mess that is down at the permanent sites towards Cardiff or the one thats up near pontypool. This is what is going to effect the house prices etc etc. I don't mind being mates with them but wouldn't want to live with them or next to them unless they can respect me as a tidy/clean person and do the same.

Why can't we find them a few fields somewhere and give them that, do they have to live in a community that they are so different from. They have thier own little groups that they travel around in so how can they expect open arms welcoming them into a new comunity when they'll be given the site and provided with everything that they need and not have had to pay for it.
Flatholme or Steepholme come to mind as possible gypsy encampments.
[quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: Personally I think that house prices across the board could do with being reduced, as how can a house gain £25k in 50 years then jump a massive £150k in less than 7. Estate agents and who ever sets house prices need horse whipping and those that have paid over the odds for the true value of your house, "Suckers" springs to mind. But on this subject I can see the view of those that don't want it in thier back yard, as lets face it gypsies aren't the most tidiest of people. Like GardenVarietyMushroo m I have become freinds with some over the years but that still doesn't mean that I'd ever trust them or buy anything off them. On a personal level they treat you as you treat them, respect them and they'll respect you, dis respect them and they'll steal your gold teeth. We've all see the mess that they leave behind when they are moved on from on illegal site, we've all seen the mess that is down at the permanent sites towards Cardiff or the one thats up near pontypool. This is what is going to effect the house prices etc etc. I don't mind being mates with them but wouldn't want to live with them or next to them unless they can respect me as a tidy/clean person and do the same. Why can't we find them a few fields somewhere and give them that, do they have to live in a community that they are so different from. They have thier own little groups that they travel around in so how can they expect open arms welcoming them into a new comunity when they'll be given the site and provided with everything that they need and not have had to pay for it.[/p][/quote]Flatholme or Steepholme come to mind as possible gypsy encampments. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 5

1:50pm Sat 15 Mar 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
GogExile wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats.

If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies.

So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy.

So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies.

4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.
Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system.

Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.
I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either.
You just prove my point - that it's ridiculous to call into question someone's decency purely by saying that others from the same group end up in prison.

BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant.

Oh, and Gypsies pay tax too.

Oh, and many Gypsies buy their own land
Many Gypsies buy their own land.
Yes and then build on it without planning permission.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GogExile[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats. If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies. So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy. So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies. 4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.[/p][/quote]Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system. Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.[/p][/quote]I'm an ex-Serviceman. 'Ex-Serviceman' isn't a self sought ethnicity and we certainly don't demand that segregated property to be purchased and developed for us at the expense of Council Tax payers to suit our lifestyle choice. Most service personnel return to their home cities and regions on discharge or those of their spouses. If we were demanding that Ireland build us special housing estates for us to live in then you may have a valid comparison. However, after years of living overwhelmingly harmoniously among different communities around the UK as well as contributing financially and socially (many a charity event for local charities and involvement with local sporting organisations for example) to those communities we don't exactly make bad neighbours either.[/p][/quote]You just prove my point - that it's ridiculous to call into question someone's decency purely by saying that others from the same group end up in prison. BTW - ex services do in fact expect preferential treatment or we wouldn't have an armed forces covenant. Oh, and Gypsies pay tax too. Oh, and many Gypsies buy their own land[/p][/quote]Many Gypsies buy their own land. Yes and then build on it without planning permission. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 4

4:44pm Sat 15 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
Spinflight wrote:
"Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. "

Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.
You would imply - it's me that infers.

And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism.

www. Imnotracistbut.com
Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo




m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???
Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back.
But I understand noting of your deranged comments about the armed forces or the community covenents that now exist.

These have nothing todo with gypsies? The covenants have been created to break down any barriers that may exist when forces personel are moved from town to town as required by thier jobs or by those that I assume are resettling into areas after thier contracts with the army has come to an end. I just don't see how or why you can compare this with gypsies that have done nothing for society apart from rip them off over tarmac and paving work and want the public to build them a camp site at the cost of the public?
I was just pointing out to Merlin the silure it was daft to imply that, despite my personal experience to the contrary, no traveller could be decent because so many were in prison.

There are twice as many troops as travellers banged up. That's a fact. And most people would think it absurd to suggest that ex forces can't be decent people because of that. Most people that is exept merlin apparently, if we're to believe his conclusion is based on logic and not prejudice.

Then GogExile got completely the wrong end of the stick and went all ranty ranty, making all sorts of comparisons between ex services and travellers that I wasn't making, one of them being that ex military don't expect/get special treatment, which I then argued wasn't true and citing the armed forces covenant as evidence.

Then some other people, in an almost Pythonesque fashion, on the one hand started attacking travellers, and on the other defended against imagined attacks against the military. Proving nothing to me really except how prejudiced some people are about travellers, how ridiculously over sensitive when they think people are 'dissing the troops' - regardless of whether anyone actually is or not - and how hypocritical they can be when it suits them.

And so, here we are.
It seemed to me that you see this one statistic that there are twice as many squadies in prison as there are travellers as a trump card. The fact that the covenant exists, are to give squadies an equal opportunity and so that barriers that normally exist are broken down. The question that should be asked is why these barriers exist in the begining not why the squdies should have these covenants in place. In a very twisted litteral meaning it does give a squadie preferential treatment, but it is trying it's best not to say this as all it does is to level the playing field. It's like I said these barriers should not exist in the begining but they do so as a reward for the work that they do there is an agrement that exists to say that because you've put your life on the line for your country we are going to try and make your life a bit more easier in civy street.

We don't know the whole reason why anyone is in prison so therefore can only jump to conclusions. My conclusion is that most squadies are in prsion for some sort of violence and a traveller will be in prison because they've robbed someone. I know which I'd rather live next too. I can handle someone who''s a little hot headed, but can't stand any thief.
I
The documentaries done about the gypsies although slightly sensetionalised are a true reflection on the way gypsies are. My guess is for every gypsiy in prison there are probably 10 or more that have escaped detection because of thier nature. They'll look after each other and will not give any information away to anyone about any crime commited by a member of thier community.

I know this for a fact, having worked breifly in security we had 3 sites that where taken over at some point by gypsies. The where really plesant when they where there to your face, if there was anything that they were doing that they shouldn't, a little word in the ear was all that was needed. If the kids were getting a bit checky they'd soon be sorted out. Looking around at the site it always looked tidy enough and nothing went missing while they were there. When they left however they left more rubish than you could imagine for the numbers thier, for a few weeks latter you'd see things going missing that you would have bet would have gone while they where there and the amount of fly tipping that happens is massive. You could call this coincidence, but I wouldn't.

So it's like I said, you might be able to get along with travellers on the whole but nobody will want them in thier back yard. In my opinion they do deserve this stigma.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Spinflight[/bold] wrote: "Oh my gosh, the kipper lurves the army and hates gypsies. I'm so shocked. I think I need to have a lie down. " Maybe you should, no doubt you could then point to whichever statement I made which infers that I hate gypsies.[/p][/quote]You would imply - it's me that infers. And your deranged rhetoric is riddled with comments from which I infer your antiziganism. www. Imnotracistbut.com[/p][/quote]Still waiting to know why GardenVarietyMushroo m has massive issue with the army? I don't understand why they have been dragged into this or infered that they don't deserve support???[/p][/quote]Mate, it's written up there in black and white. Just read back.[/p][/quote]But I understand noting of your deranged comments about the armed forces or the community covenents that now exist. These have nothing todo with gypsies? The covenants have been created to break down any barriers that may exist when forces personel are moved from town to town as required by thier jobs or by those that I assume are resettling into areas after thier contracts with the army has come to an end. I just don't see how or why you can compare this with gypsies that have done nothing for society apart from rip them off over tarmac and paving work and want the public to build them a camp site at the cost of the public?[/p][/quote]I was just pointing out to Merlin the silure it was daft to imply that, despite my personal experience to the contrary, no traveller could be decent because so many were in prison. There are twice as many troops as travellers banged up. That's a fact. And most people would think it absurd to suggest that ex forces can't be decent people because of that. Most people that is exept merlin apparently, if we're to believe his conclusion is based on logic and not prejudice. Then GogExile got completely the wrong end of the stick and went all ranty ranty, making all sorts of comparisons between ex services and travellers that I wasn't making, one of them being that ex military don't expect/get special treatment, which I then argued wasn't true and citing the armed forces covenant as evidence. Then some other people, in an almost Pythonesque fashion, on the one hand started attacking travellers, and on the other defended against imagined attacks against the military. Proving nothing to me really except how prejudiced some people are about travellers, how ridiculously over sensitive when they think people are 'dissing the troops' - regardless of whether anyone actually is or not - and how hypocritical they can be when it suits them. And so, here we are.[/p][/quote]It seemed to me that you see this one statistic that there are twice as many squadies in prison as there are travellers as a trump card. The fact that the covenant exists, are to give squadies an equal opportunity and so that barriers that normally exist are broken down. The question that should be asked is why these barriers exist in the begining not why the squdies should have these covenants in place. In a very twisted litteral meaning it does give a squadie preferential treatment, but it is trying it's best not to say this as all it does is to level the playing field. It's like I said these barriers should not exist in the begining but they do so as a reward for the work that they do there is an agrement that exists to say that because you've put your life on the line for your country we are going to try and make your life a bit more easier in civy street. We don't know the whole reason why anyone is in prison so therefore can only jump to conclusions. My conclusion is that most squadies are in prsion for some sort of violence and a traveller will be in prison because they've robbed someone. I know which I'd rather live next too. I can handle someone who''s a little hot headed, but can't stand any thief. I The documentaries done about the gypsies although slightly sensetionalised are a true reflection on the way gypsies are. My guess is for every gypsiy in prison there are probably 10 or more that have escaped detection because of thier nature. They'll look after each other and will not give any information away to anyone about any crime commited by a member of thier community. I know this for a fact, having worked breifly in security we had 3 sites that where taken over at some point by gypsies. The where really plesant when they where there to your face, if there was anything that they were doing that they shouldn't, a little word in the ear was all that was needed. If the kids were getting a bit checky they'd soon be sorted out. Looking around at the site it always looked tidy enough and nothing went missing while they were there. When they left however they left more rubish than you could imagine for the numbers thier, for a few weeks latter you'd see things going missing that you would have bet would have gone while they where there and the amount of fly tipping that happens is massive. You could call this coincidence, but I wouldn't. So it's like I said, you might be able to get along with travellers on the whole but nobody will want them in thier back yard. In my opinion they do deserve this stigma. grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: 5

6:32pm Sat 15 Mar 14

Spinflight says...

"Mate, if you can't see it, I'm not going to pick the whole thing apart line by line for you. Paragraphs 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and 13 of your comment all contain arguments from which I infer, (you should know what that means now), that you don't like gypsies."

You are not going to because you cannot. You have made a slur which you cannot substantiate, just as you could not substantiate your unwarranted and unwise attacks on ex forces personnel.

You have no arguments and resort to name calling when cornered.
"Mate, if you can't see it, I'm not going to pick the whole thing apart line by line for you. Paragraphs 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 and 13 of your comment all contain arguments from which I infer, (you should know what that means now), that you don't like gypsies." You are not going to because you cannot. You have made a slur which you cannot substantiate, just as you could not substantiate your unwarranted and unwise attacks on ex forces personnel. You have no arguments and resort to name calling when cornered. Spinflight
  • Score: 7

9:22pm Mon 17 Mar 14

welshmen says...

I don't see why we have to accommodate people who want to travel, why can't they buy a house, have a big concrete hard standing and put their caravan on it, they can come and go as they please, if they want to have a dump (toilet) they have a loo to go on, unlike the way they did around where I live, they just dumped their filth down the sides of the path along with nappies, concrete, tree clippings tarmac and other building left overs ready for our Council to take away to our local tip for free, all paid for by the Gorger's US.....
I don't see why we have to accommodate people who want to travel, why can't they buy a house, have a big concrete hard standing and put their caravan on it, they can come and go as they please, if they want to have a dump (toilet) they have a loo to go on, unlike the way they did around where I live, they just dumped their filth down the sides of the path along with nappies, concrete, tree clippings tarmac and other building left overs ready for our Council to take away to our local tip for free, all paid for by the Gorger's US..... welshmen
  • Score: 5

5:19pm Tue 18 Mar 14

Wildethoughts says...

Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming
ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity.

Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism.

Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though.
Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity. Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism. Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though. Wildethoughts
  • Score: -6

6:08pm Tue 18 Mar 14

grumpyandopinionated says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming

ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity.

Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism.

Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though.
The last hope of the desperate "Political Correctness". Hog wash, if it is the case that the minority is spoiling it for the majority then the majority needs to sort out the minority and turn around the sterotype. When was the last time any gypsy set up camp in newport and left the place in the condition that they found it? If they actually managed to keep things tidy then this will be a start and might be able to change a persons perceptive. If they were camping illegally and didn't cost the tax payer money to tidy up after them then people would think why not provide them with temp camp sites that they could use rather than pitching anywhere.

If they didn't rip people off with substandard work and did the job properly and charged accordingly then they'll also be viewed in a different light.

As nobody can be singled out and named and shamed individually then everyone else is going to have to label the group.

It's pretty much the same for normal folk, if they look a bit chavy then they get viewed as being criminals, you can't say if they are or not, you just have to assume as it's easier to assume someones going to rob you than to know they will when they are running down the road with your mobile phone or car stero.
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity. Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism. Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though.[/p][/quote]The last hope of the desperate "Political Correctness". Hog wash, if it is the case that the minority is spoiling it for the majority then the majority needs to sort out the minority and turn around the sterotype. When was the last time any gypsy set up camp in newport and left the place in the condition that they found it? If they actually managed to keep things tidy then this will be a start and might be able to change a persons perceptive. If they were camping illegally and didn't cost the tax payer money to tidy up after them then people would think why not provide them with temp camp sites that they could use rather than pitching anywhere. If they didn't rip people off with substandard work and did the job properly and charged accordingly then they'll also be viewed in a different light. As nobody can be singled out and named and shamed individually then everyone else is going to have to label the group. It's pretty much the same for normal folk, if they look a bit chavy then they get viewed as being criminals, you can't say if they are or not, you just have to assume as it's easier to assume someones going to rob you than to know they will when they are running down the road with your mobile phone or car stero. grumpyandopinionated
  • Score: 7

8:45pm Tue 18 Mar 14

Llanmartinangel says...

grumpyandopinionated wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming


ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity.

Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism.

Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though.
The last hope of the desperate "Political Correctness". Hog wash, if it is the case that the minority is spoiling it for the majority then the majority needs to sort out the minority and turn around the sterotype. When was the last time any gypsy set up camp in newport and left the place in the condition that they found it? If they actually managed to keep things tidy then this will be a start and might be able to change a persons perceptive. If they were camping illegally and didn't cost the tax payer money to tidy up after them then people would think why not provide them with temp camp sites that they could use rather than pitching anywhere.

If they didn't rip people off with substandard work and did the job properly and charged accordingly then they'll also be viewed in a different light.

As nobody can be singled out and named and shamed individually then everyone else is going to have to label the group.

It's pretty much the same for normal folk, if they look a bit chavy then they get viewed as being criminals, you can't say if they are or not, you just have to assume as it's easier to assume someones going to rob you than to know they will when they are running down the road with your mobile phone or car stero.
Spot on
[quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity. Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism. Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though.[/p][/quote]The last hope of the desperate "Political Correctness". Hog wash, if it is the case that the minority is spoiling it for the majority then the majority needs to sort out the minority and turn around the sterotype. When was the last time any gypsy set up camp in newport and left the place in the condition that they found it? If they actually managed to keep things tidy then this will be a start and might be able to change a persons perceptive. If they were camping illegally and didn't cost the tax payer money to tidy up after them then people would think why not provide them with temp camp sites that they could use rather than pitching anywhere. If they didn't rip people off with substandard work and did the job properly and charged accordingly then they'll also be viewed in a different light. As nobody can be singled out and named and shamed individually then everyone else is going to have to label the group. It's pretty much the same for normal folk, if they look a bit chavy then they get viewed as being criminals, you can't say if they are or not, you just have to assume as it's easier to assume someones going to rob you than to know they will when they are running down the road with your mobile phone or car stero.[/p][/quote]Spot on Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 3

2:07pm Wed 19 Mar 14

jimmytheone2 says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats.

If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies.

So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy.

So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies.

4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.
Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system.

Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.
Okay, i protest about the number of ex - squaddies moving to the area. All these tanks and fighter planes driving round my cul de sac is having a negative impact on house prices.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: I missed the bit about the gypsies in prison. You can't compare the stats like that as you have to take the population into account. I'll do this quickly as I can't be bothered to trawl through stats. If there are 62 million people in the uk and approx 3-400 thousand gypsies, double that to take into account for those that could be telling porkies. So the ratio is for every 77 people in britain there is 1 gypsy. So thats nearly 4 times the number of gypsies in our prison system by popultation group than there are non gypsies. 4 TIMES the number. So the 1 in 20 seems a bit mute now.[/p][/quote]Roughly compaable, one might imagine, to the number of ex service personnel inthe country - yet there are twice as many of those than travellers in the prison system. Still waiting for the protests about ex squaddies moving to the area.[/p][/quote]Okay, i protest about the number of ex - squaddies moving to the area. All these tanks and fighter planes driving round my cul de sac is having a negative impact on house prices. jimmytheone2
  • Score: 0

8:04pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Wildethoughts says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
grumpyandopinionated wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming



ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity.

Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism.

Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though.
The last hope of the desperate "Political Correctness". Hog wash, if it is the case that the minority is spoiling it for the majority then the majority needs to sort out the minority and turn around the sterotype. When was the last time any gypsy set up camp in newport and left the place in the condition that they found it? If they actually managed to keep things tidy then this will be a start and might be able to change a persons perceptive. If they were camping illegally and didn't cost the tax payer money to tidy up after them then people would think why not provide them with temp camp sites that they could use rather than pitching anywhere.

If they didn't rip people off with substandard work and did the job properly and charged accordingly then they'll also be viewed in a different light.

As nobody can be singled out and named and shamed individually then everyone else is going to have to label the group.

It's pretty much the same for normal folk, if they look a bit chavy then they get viewed as being criminals, you can't say if they are or not, you just have to assume as it's easier to assume someones going to rob you than to know they will when they are running down the road with your mobile phone or car stero.
Spot on
Why thankyou.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]grumpyandopinionated[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Ah the last bastion of racism.......seeming ly it is perfectly acceptable to make racist comments against a group of people defined by their ethnicity. Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - some people, who are from Gypsy / Traveler communities commit crime. Some don't. To suggest that simply because someone is from a certain ethnic group that they act or behave in a certain way is called, now listen carefully to this bit, a stereotype, repeat after me children, a stereotype. And if that stereotype is founded on ethnicity, then its called racism. Can you spell that kids - racism. Annoying isn't it - being patronised. Not half as annoying by constantly being subjected to racism is though.[/p][/quote]The last hope of the desperate "Political Correctness". Hog wash, if it is the case that the minority is spoiling it for the majority then the majority needs to sort out the minority and turn around the sterotype. When was the last time any gypsy set up camp in newport and left the place in the condition that they found it? If they actually managed to keep things tidy then this will be a start and might be able to change a persons perceptive. If they were camping illegally and didn't cost the tax payer money to tidy up after them then people would think why not provide them with temp camp sites that they could use rather than pitching anywhere. If they didn't rip people off with substandard work and did the job properly and charged accordingly then they'll also be viewed in a different light. As nobody can be singled out and named and shamed individually then everyone else is going to have to label the group. It's pretty much the same for normal folk, if they look a bit chavy then they get viewed as being criminals, you can't say if they are or not, you just have to assume as it's easier to assume someones going to rob you than to know they will when they are running down the road with your mobile phone or car stero.[/p][/quote]Spot on[/p][/quote]Why thankyou. Wildethoughts
  • Score: 0

10:10pm Wed 19 Mar 14

Spinflight says...

"Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - ..."

What is it called when children from a certain group all bring knives into school with them and start fights?

What is it called when the police have to suspend classes to sort out the thuggery over a period of hours? Do you have a word for the terror their parents go through at the thought of sending their children back into school the next day?


ukipnewport.com
"Now boys and girls, listen very carefully - ..." What is it called when children from a certain group all bring knives into school with them and start fights? What is it called when the police have to suspend classes to sort out the thuggery over a period of hours? Do you have a word for the terror their parents go through at the thought of sending their children back into school the next day? ukipnewport.com Spinflight
  • Score: 1

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