Newport should have tram system - Assembly report (From South Wales Argus)
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Newport should have tram system - Assembly report
5:10pm Monday 25th January 2010 in News
FUTURE TRANSPORT: Could Newport have a tram system like this?
NEWPORT should consider a tram-like light rail system, an Assembly members' report says.
An investigation the future of Welsh railways also called for improvements to the Severn Tunnel and the London-South Wales service.
The Assembly welcomed the report and said it agreed with many of the recommendations.
Wales currently has no urban light rail system, the report from the Enterprise and learning committee said, and that it is thought Newport, Swansea and Cardiff could benefit from such a scheme.
It said the Deputy First Minister had told the committee it was looking at light rail as an option, and the report called for the Assembly to hold a feasibility study into the idea.
Meanwhile it also called for the Severn Tunnel, which emerges near Rogiet, to be adapted for electrification.
The UK government is currently planning to electrify the track from London to South Wales to reduce journey times.
Despite being opened in 1886, the committee heard evidence the tunnel could be used "for the foreseeable future".
It also called for the Assembly to work with First Great Western to cut out Swindon, Didcot and Reading from the London route.
With electrification journey times could be cut to 1 hour 25 minutes if the stations were missed, the report said.
An Assembly spokesman said it welcomes the report and agrees with many of the recommendations, which it said are already being developed as part of the National Transport Plan.
"The Minister will now consider the detail of the report and respond fully in due course," he said.
Comments(40)
Bobevans
says...
6:08pm Mon 25 Jan 10
As far as I know Westminster suspended the building of any new tram sytems as those already being built had costs spiralling out of control
A more sensible option is Trolleybuses. These can be installed quickly and are far more flexable then trams which are bought to a halt by accidents & roadworks.
Hybrid Trolleybuses can be powered electrically over the busy sections and in out sections can use their engine.
There are trolleybuses that need no overheadlines. They pick up power from a conductor set into the road which is only energised as the bus passes over it.
Trollybuses have all the advantages of trams without any of the disadavantage. Costs are about 10% higher then for buses currently but thats a tine fraction of the cost of trams. Trams are also noisy and cannot go up or down hills
PontyPeter
says...
8:40pm Mon 25 Jan 10
Bobevans wrote:The old trams that ran in Newport years ago drove up Stow Hill. Get your facts right Bob.
Totally daft. There is no tram system in the UK that even breaks even. There are not the passenger numbers in Newport to support a tram system & there is not the road space to build one As far as I know Westminster suspended the building of any new tram sytems as those already being built had costs spiralling out of control A more sensible option is Trolleybuses. These can be installed quickly and are far more flexable then trams which are bought to a halt by accidents & roadworks. Hybrid Trolleybuses can be powered electrically over the busy sections and in out sections can use their engine. There are trolleybuses that need no overheadlines. They pick up power from a conductor set into the road which is only energised as the bus passes over it. Trollybuses have all the advantages of trams without any of the disadavantage. Costs are about 10% higher then for buses currently but thats a tine fraction of the cost of trams. Trams are also noisy and cannot go up or down hills
Nevasleep
says...
9:44pm Mon 25 Jan 10
We need better buses.....We should focus on more local train services Cwmbran -> Newport, and Bristol to Swansea, say every 15mins with more stations.
Salem
says...
11:37pm Mon 25 Jan 10
Daz Mondeo
says...
12:18am Tue 26 Jan 10
Lets have a a bit of vision! What really needs to be done is a S. Wales Underground System...
Imagine, boarding a train in Newport City Central, then a few minutes later, getting off at Pontypool, and all for less than the price of a packet of fags!
Maybe I'm making light of this, but if Wales is to ever get some sort of public transport that is worth it's salt, then maybe a little unconventional thought and vision is needed...
Salem
says...
12:40am Tue 26 Jan 10
Daz Mondeo wrote:Pie in the Sky Pipe Dreams!!
Hmmm, what we really need to do is replicate and advance on what has been done in London.
Lets have a a bit of vision! What really needs to be done is a S. Wales Underground System...
Imagine, boarding a train in Newport City Central, then a few minutes later, getting off at Pontypool, and all for less than the price of a packet of fags!
Maybe I'm making light of this, but if Wales is to ever get some sort of public transport that is worth it's salt, then maybe a little unconventional thought and vision is needed...
Bobevans
says...
7:02am Tue 26 Jan 10
Salem wrote:It is the usual half baked ill thought ideas that eminate from the WAG. The population of Newport is far to small to support a tram system and there is no space to build one. THe cost of building trams runs to Billions just for a single short line. All the tram systems in the UK operate with massive losses.
Daz Mondeo wrote: Hmmm, what we really need to do is replicate and advance on what has been done in London. Lets have a a bit of vision! What really needs to be done is a S. Wales Underground System... Imagine, boarding a train in Newport City Central, then a few minutes later, getting off at Pontypool, and all for less than the price of a packet of fags! Maybe I'm making light of this, but if Wales is to ever get some sort of public transport that is worth it's salt, then maybe a little unconventional thought and vision is needed...Pie in the Sky Pipe Dreams!!
Only one system in the UK has been partially successful and that is in Croydon in SE London. that though is really a Light Railway rather then a tram. It runs over what were disused railway lines for 90% of the route. Where it runs on normal roads in Croydon town centre it has been far less succesfull with lots of accidents & delays and other problems. Trams & other traffic & pedestrians do not work. LOts of problems when utilities ned to dig up the road.
For somewhere the size of Newport a modern Trolleybus system is the best bet. Not much more expensive then buses. You dont need to dig up the roads to move all the services and lay track neither. The trcks also cause problems for pedestrians & cyclists
An extensive network of trollybus routes could be built in Newport within 3 years at a fraction of the cost of a single tram line which would take several years to build
Trolley buses can also use existing bus depots
Bobevans
says...
7:07am Tue 26 Jan 10
Modern diesels are very efficient and electric trains dont offer much adavantage over diesel
Owain Vaughan
says...
8:29am Tue 26 Jan 10
a) Faster acceleration
b) Regenerative braking
c) Lighter, simpler engines
d) No fuel to carry around
e) No emissions at the point of use
f) Quieter operation
g) More reliability
h) Cheaper operation
No train manufacturer in the world is going to build a "high-speed" diesel train in the 21st century. Maybe Bob would do well to live here.
I'm not even going to comment on his ridiculous assertions about trams in Newport other than to say he is flat-out wrong (as usual).
Gareth
says...
9:43am Tue 26 Jan 10
I remember the argument against countless millions being spent on the Royal Opera House a few years back: that it was subsiding the follies of the upper middle classes when the average Joe was suffering.
The retort was that the countless millions were actually going into the pockets of the local electricians, builders et al to build it. Surely this was far more important to them than whether they would visit the final building?
I found that quite an impressive answer.
Could the same not be said for this?
That anything which injects jobs and cash into the local community must be a good thing, regardless of whether 100 or 100k people ultimately use the finished project?
NigelNewInn
says...
11:48am Tue 26 Jan 10
Owain Vaughan wrote:Regenerative braking is only of use if another train is accelerating on the same stretch of line, Electric locomotives do not have engines, how reliable were the eurostars this winter, they may be cheaper to operate but cost billions to equip and mantain the overhead, and finally there are quite a few new high speed diesel units under development for the 21st century, check out Hitachi and Alstom.
Electric trains offer many advantages over diesel, namely:
a) Faster acceleration
b) Regenerative braking
c) Lighter, simpler engines
d) No fuel to carry around
e) No emissions at the point of use
f) Quieter operation
g) More reliability
h) Cheaper operation
No train manufacturer in the world is going to build a "high-speed" diesel train in the 21st century. Maybe Bob would do well to live here.
I'm not even going to comment on his ridiculous assertions about trams in Newport other than to say he is flat-out wrong (as usual).
Owain Vaughan
says...
12:34pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Of course electric trains have engines! An engine is a machine that produces mechanical force and motion from another form of energy (e.g. a fuel source, compressed air, or electricity).
Network Rail have already factored in the cost of OHL equipment and electrification more than pays for itself in the long-term.
How long have EuroStar been running with Class 373 units? Since 1994. I'd say a few failures this winter versus 16 years of failure-free operation is pretty good reliability.
The only reason Hitachi were building high-speed diesels is because the UK government were too short-sighted to electrify the GWML and MML. Now they have there is even less of a market for them. Who else is going to buy them?
NigelNewInn
says...
1:08pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Why is Germany building high speed diesel trains for secondary routes rather than electrifying them? MML no longer exists it is now East Midland trains and the routes are oprerated by diesel units and HST's as they are not electrified apart from surburban and eurostar. The GWML is only electrified as far as airport junction for Heathrow Express services.
westsi1983
says...
1:27pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Where would the world be without ambition?
Owain, will have to correct you on a point, several of the newest diesel multiple units use regenerative braking as well. The Corradias used on the Manchester and Holyhead route do this, and you can hear it when on board!! Should be remembered that the diesel is burnt to make electricity in these trains too!!
Missing out stations is good. Bob seems to come from the school of all trains stop at all stations. This isn't how the best railways in the world operate!! What we need is a good mix of express and stopping trains! Something Wales would do well to work on! This report's findings have the best interests of all at heart, and people should support its findings, and push for betterment on its recommendations, rather than jibing about how public transport is a waste of money! I'd shudder to think how many people would be unemployed if we shut public transport down tomorrow...
Gareth
says...
1:45pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Thanks guys.
It's actually quite nice to sit on the sidelines and learn about a new subject.
Owain Vaughan
says...
1:58pm Tue 26 Jan 10
By MML I mean the main line which definitely does exist, not the train operating company. You are aware that there are plans to electrify it and the GWML aren't you? Hence the government's recent decision to cancel a large DMU order.
NigelNewInn
says...
2:34pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Owain Vaughan
says...
2:42pm Tue 26 Jan 10
It is worth pointing out though that a Class 92 has more than twice the power output as a Class 66, so in pure power-to-weight terms, electric wins!
NigelNewInn
says...
2:54pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Owain Vaughan wrote:But what freight train in country requires 6750bhp to move it! sledgehammer to crack a walnut. And you don't get thrash with an electric!
Point taken!
It is worth pointing out though that a Class 92 has more than twice the power output as a Class 66, so in pure power-to-weight terms, electric wins!
Nevasleep
says...
3:07pm Tue 26 Jan 10
pwharley
says...
4:35pm Tue 26 Jan 10
westsi1983 wrote:The Class 175s used on the Marches line do NOT have regerative braking! The noise you can hear is the hydraulic retarder, which helps extend the life of the brake pads.
Trams in Newport are a great idea! However, Bobevans and Salem demonstrate their own point. Neither of them would use the system if they were paid to!! Little wonder Newport is forecast to remain in recession for eternity when we have intellects like Bob and Salem piping off with their diatribes of negativity!!
Where would the world be without ambition?
Owain, will have to correct you on a point, several of the newest diesel multiple units use regenerative braking as well. The Corradias used on the Manchester and Holyhead route do this, and you can hear it when on board!! Should be remembered that the diesel is burnt to make electricity in these trains too!!
Missing out stations is good. Bob seems to come from the school of all trains stop at all stations. This isn't how the best railways in the world operate!! What we need is a good mix of express and stopping trains! Something Wales would do well to work on! This report's findings have the best interests of all at heart, and people should support its findings, and push for betterment on its recommendations, rather than jibing about how public transport is a waste of money! I'd shudder to think how many people would be unemployed if we shut public transport down tomorrow...
Owain Vaughan
says...
4:39pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Bobevans
says...
5:33pm Tue 26 Jan 10
westsi1983 wrote:As you point out all modern mail line diesels are diesel electric so most do have regenerative braking
Trams in Newport are a great idea! However, Bobevans and Salem demonstrate their own point. Neither of them would use the system if they were paid to!! Little wonder Newport is forecast to remain in recession for eternity when we have intellects like Bob and Salem piping off with their diatribes of negativity!! Where would the world be without ambition? Owain, will have to correct you on a point, several of the newest diesel multiple units use regenerative braking as well. The Corradias used on the Manchester and Holyhead route do this, and you can hear it when on board!! Should be remembered that the diesel is burnt to make electricity in these trains too!! Missing out stations is good. Bob seems to come from the school of all trains stop at all stations. This isn't how the best railways in the world operate!! What we need is a good mix of express and stopping trains! Something Wales would do well to work on! This report's findings have the best interests of all at heart, and people should support its findings, and push for betterment on its recommendations, rather than jibing about how public transport is a waste of money! I'd shudder to think how many people would be unemployed if we shut public transport down tomorrow...
The advantage of electric over diesels is at best marginal. Diesels are slightly heavier. They need to be refuelled and maintenance costs are about 10% higher. Acceleration & Deceleration is slightly better but that only really an advantage on busy commuter lines with lots of stops close together
Disadvantages of electric are the very high cost of putting in the Overhead lines and the very high cost of maintain them. They can only be maintained at night when all services have stopped running.
If the overhead lines get damaged, not common but equally not rare services can be suspended for days.
Electrics are best suited to high frequency commuter lines where they can have a definite advantage. Almost no such lines exist in Wales. The closest is the stretch between Newport & Cardiff
The Great Western line is at best a marginal case for electrification. The high frequency services exist at the London end & between Newport & Cardiff but in between Bristol & Newport it is not really justified. The Severn Tunnel will present major problems as well. There is inadequate clearance for the standard 25KV lines and the fact that the tunnel leaks like a sieve is another problem
westsi1983
says...
5:59pm Tue 26 Jan 10
The UK rail network is massively outdated and still suffering from the decades of tory underinvestment. Yet, now, at a time when investment is supposed to be coming, so is another rail-hating tory government! Expect to see rail projects halt, maintenance budgets slashed and staff redundancies rocket!! However, what is to say any other government will not do the same??
Worst of all, it would not be difficult to introduce a "heavy rail" commuter system around Newport!! We have plenty of lines there, and options for places for stations on these lines... but for some reason there is no desire to put it together!! Can anyone shed any light on previous proposals along this line?
mark the shark
says...
6:19pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Gooda
says...
6:34pm Tue 26 Jan 10
Bobevans
says...
6:42pm Tue 26 Jan 10
The reality is they would be able to build one short line for about £1 Billion.
Where would you build it even and for what purpose?
If you take Newport of Cardif for £1 Billion you could dramatically improve the bus service for £1 Billion
You could possible put in Trolleybus routes on a few high frequecy routes although most would be unsuitable for them as modern trolleybus like trams are single deck and usually two cars an can carry about 200 people. Possibly you could use a single car but they are designed for high capacity and are large and would not be able to negotiate many of the routes.
The main saving of Trolleys, Trams & Bendy Buses is staff costs but you need high levels of passengers to justify them. In most cases the passenger number do not exist
So if you use a single car tram you are looking at routes that would say have a minimum frequencie of 15 minutes so you are looking at routes that would generate at minimum 400 passengers an hour. The trouble is there are none
bruce
says...
8:10pm Tue 26 Jan 10
gingertom
says...
9:11pm Tue 26 Jan 10
NigelNewInn
says...
9:35pm Tue 26 Jan 10
bruce wrote:debatable, Maybach music anyday!
Bring back the Deltic,best sounding diesel ever.
Bobevans
says...
7:00am Wed 27 Jan 10
The average journey is less then 6 miles. That does not ned rail or trams & it make no sense to do so particularly as the costs are very high.
What most people want for that sort of journey is a near door to door service. In general buses & in some cases trolleybuses or hybrid Trolley buses would met the need.
independent voter
says...
2:40pm Wed 27 Jan 10
heresphil
says...
2:44pm Wed 27 Jan 10
If you wanted to improve links within Newport, proper bus priority measures such as busways would work where there is the space to build them. There are also plenty of modern ex-London bendybuses floating around that Boris is getting rid of.
Of course a properly integrated network and ticketing system wouldn't hurt either.
Bobevans
says...
5:41pm Wed 27 Jan 10
Nothing much changes with public transport in the UK
TallyHo
says...
10:11am Thu 28 Jan 10
A guided busway would be a real alternative, at little cost save the roads infrastructure, and only necessary where traffic congestion may exist, and within the regenerated City Centre.
Now that's the sensible option, and offers value for money to the people of Newport.
The Abrogator
says...
11:40am Thu 28 Jan 10
Could it use the trackbeds of former rail lines?
Skitch it!
says...
4:10pm Thu 28 Jan 10
: )
Bobevans
says...
4:56pm Thu 28 Jan 10
TallyHo wrote:There is no real value in guidence systems. They add a lot to the costs but give little value. The main use of them is if you want to have a very narrow lane for the buses
Hmm - forget all the arguments about trams, electrification and the associated costs. A guided busway would be a real alternative, at little cost save the roads infrastructure, and only necessary where traffic congestion may exist, and within the regenerated City Centre. Now that's the sensible option, and offers value for money to the people of Newport.
The most sensible approach is Trolley buses no track needed and the overhead lines are much simpler & light weght on modern ones.
Technology that does away with the overhead lines is not that far away
One aproach is inductively coupled. It the same approach a lot of toothbrushes use
Bobevans
says...
7:09am Fri 29 Jan 10
heresphil wrote:I think in many case Trams & Light Railways are confused. Trames generally run on roads. Light Railways on a segeragated railway line
Trams would only work economically these days if there was already some sort of local rail infrastructure in place. Cardiff would be ideal as the local lines could be electrified and higher frequency trams put on, linking into the city centre. This is not the case with Newport though. If you wanted to improve links within Newport, proper bus priority measures such as busways would work where there is the space to build them. There are also plenty of modern ex-London bendybuses floating around that Boris is getting rid of. Of course a properly integrated network and ticketing system wouldn't hurt either.
Bendy buses do not work. Our roads are too narrow have to many junctions and tight turns. London had endless problems with them including very high accident rates amost 4 times that of conventional buses. They block pedestrian crossings and road junctions and bus stops they also had very high levels of fares evasion. Estimates but it at over 25%
There are few if any routes in South Wales that even have that level of passengers. A bendy bus carries about 200 so you are looking at passenger flows of over 2000 an hour to justify them on those grounds alone
D-G says...
5:25pm Mon 25 Jan 10