I'd rather we just have the same government, same standards in schools and NHS(which we don't) as England. But a seperate national identity.

I think it is a cheek. They have been interfering in Wales for centuries and it is time they kept out of our affairs.

I do know one or two people in their 70s who think of themselves as English because Monmouthshire was "legally" in England but I think they are few and far between and mostly in the older age bracket.

I am sick and tired of this yawnful argument raising its ugly head, fuelled as ever by people who don't even live in Monmouthshire.
I have lived in the county all my life and am Welsh - and proud of that fact.
The irony is that according to the statute books (many moons ago) Monmouthshire was never a part of England, but was an entity in its own right, so why are the English Democrats so passionate about reclaiming something that was, and never will be theirs.
Monmouthshire is part of Wales both politically and socially, and has been with a huge sense of pride for decades. There is no discontent here of that fact; no one is burning Welsh effigies and blasting God Save the Queen from their MP3s, so why are the English Democrats so content on stirring trouble?
What riles me even more is that the English Democrats are using the Assembly as a cheap way of gaining notoriety. What do they plan to do if, heaven help us they bizarrely won a seat?
As divided as the parties currently representing Wales are, they do have one common link – to represent Wales. I somehow can’t see the deplorable English Democrats doing that. Stay in England – you’re wanted there.

Mr Tilbrook, in the spirit of "not causing trouble between the English and the Welsh", thanks but no thanks. We're quite happy being Welsh and don't wish to change. Perhaps you could get your campaign costs sponsored by www.uswitch.com!

Go take a run and jump. Monmouthshire is in WALES and will stay in WALES!! And I'm speaking for the majority of Welsh people living in the county. Your ballot will fall flat on its face!!!

Imagine if we did (god forbid) end up in england, all the names of the WELSH towns and villages as well as the road sighs would have to change...even more money wasted by the ENGLISH. Pipe dreams english democrats.

Can Wales have Cornwall and The N.E of england back please?
Remind me who has free presciptions and better higher education??

A great idea to return Monmouthshire to its rightful home as a part of England. We can then get away from the dual langugue nonsense, no one in Monmouthshire uses Welsh.

There is a rising tide of nationalism throughout Britain. The seeds were sown by Scots and are now being propagated by an awakening England. Don't be so arrogant as to try to deny people democratic choice. What are you frightened of? Why did it need an act of Parliament to move 400 square miles of England and 400,000 English people into Wales in 1974? The English will soon be financially independent and I would like to see our people back home where their economic future and wellbeing is assured. A few free prescriptions will seem a hollow victory indeed.

back to England i say and lets get away from this waste of time and talent that is the teaching of Welsh in schools. Welsh has no application in the wider world,but then some big fish in a little pond would have the people of Wales remain an insular tribe.

I think we should dump the English Democrats in the Severn frankly, the BNP has reared it's ugly head as well.

These Monmoushire is in Wales yes no debates are very annoying and pointless.

Had to laugh at the 1 in 7 statistic, that's the statistic used to identify the DEAF lolol !

Why do people keep raving about free prescriptions in Wales? It's not that big a deal, most people across the country (England AND Wales) don't pay anyway and those that do can afford to.

Mervyn James wrote:
I think we should dump the English Democrats in the Severn frankly, the BNP has reared it\'s ugly head as well. These Monmoushire is in Wales yes no debates are very annoying and pointless. Had to laugh at the 1 in 7 statistic, that\'s the statistic used to identify the DEAF lolol !

I resent you trying to associate the English Democrats with the BNP.
Are you a Trot? If not you may not be aware that there would be a welcome in their camp for a kindred spirit of your ilk.
We are not racist in any way. Our only criteria is a love of our Country and our kinsman or is that a sentiment reserved only for the minor nations of Britain?
What you have tried to do is despicable. Your comments are meaningless and shallow. If you do not have the intellect for debate kindly refrain from participating in an argument that is obviously beyond your mental capacity.

I think we should "DUMP" all Welsh, Scottish & Irish Politicians in the Thames so that we can have our English Parliament Back, and our English Money !

Someone called James form Newport claims that '...no-one in Monmouthshire uses Welsh.' Not quite: 'rwyf I a'm teulu, gan gynnwys 3 o blant y enedigol o'r sir ac yn siarad Cymraeg yn ddyddiol ymysg ein gilydd---and there are others as well.

Well done English democrats keep up the good work,and while your at it highlight the drain on the English NHS re welsh people having the cheek to seek free prescription charges when attending English GP surgeries,English people ofcourse having to pay,roll on an English parliament.

Monmouthshire down to Norman times paid tribute sometimes to Wales sometimes England and was ruled by the lord Marchers. Despite Edward I forcing a union of Wales with England the area did not return a representative to parliament and lay beyond the jurisdiction of the Kings court. The Lord Marchers administered their own laws .In 1549 Monmouthshire was granted a charter by Edward vi where it was described as being in the Marches of Wales. Towards the end of the reign of Charles II Monmouth was included in the Oxford assize circuit and this may have caused the Welsh/English confusion.Monmouth was included in the act of disestablishing the church of Wales in 1908 as well as other acts pertaining to Wales. King Offa's Dyke 8th century defensive English earthwork also includes Monmouthshire/Newport etc on the Welsh side. So, whatever you say Monmouthshire is Welsh. Add to the above the high crime rates the burgeoning immigration and the fact that 40% of English people say they would leave England if they could. I am English living in Wales and there really is no contest.

I recognise the names of certain people commenting being members of the English Dems. What you have to realise is that the English Dems are polling just above the Raving Loonies and are using the people of Wales as a gimmick to get plenty of press .. They will realsie one day they need the support of the English press and are just wasting every ones time with this useless campaign. Monmouthshire is WELSH without a doubt and the English Dems just want to wipe out centuaries of WELSH history in Monmouthshire. I call on everyone to send them packing on May 3rd back to England where they should be campaigning for an English Parliament - Not interfering and trying to cause trouble with the people of WALES. JimmyMc

Is Monmouth in Wales?

This is an old Chestnut,

written by David Price:-


Down to early Norman times the geographical area of Monmouthshire had its own native rulers who were tributary to the Kings of Wales and sometimes to the King of England.

Despite Edward I's enforced union of Wales with England the area lay within the Marches of Wales which did not send representatives to Parliament but were ruled by the Lords Marchers. These Lordships lay beyond the jurisdiction of the King's Courts and where governed by their own ancient laws and customs which were administered by their Lords in their own Courts.

This was changed by Henry VIII who by the Laws in Wales Act of 1535 divided the Marches into the counties of Monmouth, Brecknock, Radnor, Montgomery and Denbigh, incorporating them once and for ever with the realm of England.

In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". The following writers describe Monmouthshire as being in Wales: Humphrey Llwyd (History of Cambria 1568); Churchyard (Worthiness of Wales 1587); Drayton (Polyolbion 1613); Enderbie (1666; and Doddridge (Historical Account of the Prince of Wales 1714).

Towards the end of the reign of Charles II, Monmouthshire was included in the Oxford Circuit for assize purposes, This is where the confusion seems to have arisen. However, recent legislators have no doubt and Monmouthshire has been included in the Act disestablishing the Church in Wales, the Welsh Cemeteries Act 1908, the Welsh Language Act and the legislation reorganising Local Government in 1974 and 1996.

So, whatever the Gallophobes say, Monmouth is Welsh!

....David Price

The English Democrats are needed in England to campaign for an English Parliament - What the **** are they doing in Wales ?? Trying to stir up trouble by the looks of things - BNP & ED`s and other troublemakers should stay in England .

Posted by: Steven Uncles, Kent on 8:34pm Sun 15 Apr 07
I think we should "DUMP" all Welsh, Scottish & Irish Politicians in the Thames so that we can have our English Parliament Back, and our English Money !
I think we should "DUMP" all Welsh, Scottish & Irish Politicians in the Thames so that we can have our English Parliament Back, and our English Money !

......................

Steven Uncles is a member of the English Democrats - Now you know their true feelings towards us WELSH.

I`ve never heard anything so absurd.

I was born in England of English parents.I moved to Wales because of my husbands work. I`m glad to be out of England and living in Wales, the Welsh are a great race. We are both learning the Welsh language and will be passing it on to any future children. I`ve done a lot of research and there is no way Monmouthshire is in England and neither should it be.

The English Democrats are just like the BNP and are enjoying stirring up trouble with their neigbours.

The English Democrats want a referendum but they fail to say who should pay for that referendum. The Welsh / Monmouthshire tax payer maybe ?

I agree with a previous message: The BNP & English Democrats should stay in England instaed of coming to Wales to cause trouble.

Sue

will hanlon wrote:
Well done English democrats keep up the good work,and while your at it highlight the drain on the English NHS re welsh people having the cheek to seek free prescription charges when attending English GP surgeries,English people ofcourse having to pay,roll on an English parliament.

Another English Democrat : Why arn`t you fighting for your own English Parliament ?? Why try to create a Welsh Vs English divide when most in Wales would like to see you get your own Parliament ?

Get back to England and start looking after the English - You may just be taken seriously then ....

JimmyMc, your David Price posting is partially accurate, but obviously is argued from the side of Monmouthshire being in Wales. In actual fact the Laws in Wales Act 1543 enumerated the 12 counties of Wales, and Monmouthshire was not one of them. This is nothing to do with Charles II or the Oxford circuit, it is there in black and White. Similarly the Local Government Act 1933 explicitly includes the administrative county of Monmouth and county borough of Newport in the England section of the schedules. Go and read it.

It was only a footnote in the LGA 1972 that stated "in this section England does not inculde the administrative county of Monmouth and county borough of Newport" and that was it! Nearly 500 years of legal documents overruled in that one sentence. Not exactly democratic was it?

So it`s confirmed - Monmouthshire is Welsh and has been for centuaries.

There is no way Monmouthshire will be going to England because a bunch of wannabees want to make a name for themselves ... You can`t just write away centuaries of Monmouthshires Welsh history - You lot will spend your time better if you stay in England and look after the English, or are you facing to much opposition from the Monster Raving Loonies .. It`s sad to see the E.Dem`s becoming a joke party a kin to the BNP ...

Owain Vaughan wrote:
JimmyMc, your David Price posting is partially accurate, but obviously is argued from the side of Monmouthshire being in Wales. In actual fact the Laws in Wales Act 1543 enumerated the 12 counties of Wales, and Monmouthshire was not one of them. This is nothing to do with Charles II or the Oxford circuit, it is there in black and White. Similarly the Local Government Act 1933 explicitly includes the administrative county of Monmouth and county borough of Newport in the England section of the schedules. Go and read it. It was only a footnote in the LGA 1972 that stated "in this section England does not inculde the administrative county of Monmouth and county borough of Newport" and that was it! Nearly 500 years of legal documents overruled in that one sentence. Not exactly democratic was it?

Where was the democracy when the English tried to take over Wales 500 years ago ?? They abused & killed the Welsh in their own country and tried to distroy it`s language, now your whinging about democracy for a part of Wales which has been Welsh forever as far as I`m concerned. Go look after the English.

Even the name is from WALES:

Monmouth is an abbreviation of Monnow-mouth, Monnow originally deriving from the Welsh Myn-wy (myn - swift, wy - water),

THE ACT OF UNION


Successive monarchs had failed to subdue the anarchic Welsh and the Marcher lords until Henry VIII passed the Act of Union in 1536.
Henry's fears about the power of the Marcher Lords grew after his break with the Catholic church in 1534

So where was the democratic rights of the Welsh ??

THE ACT OF UNION


Successive monarchs had failed to subdue the anarchic Welsh and the Marcher lords until Henry VIII passed the Act of Union in 1536.
Henry's fears about the power of the Marcher Lords grew after his break with the Catholic church in 1534. Some of these Marcher Lords were supporters of the Pope and Henry was worried that they might rebel against him. Henry was also warned that Catholic monarchs in France and Spain might try to invade England by landing their soldiers on the poorly defended coasts of Wales. To protect himself against this possibility. Henry decided to take control of the whole of Wales.

As part of the reorganisation of the country the Marcher lordships were formed into the counties of Brecon, Denbigh, Montgomery, Radnor and Monmouth, which along with all eight existing shires of Wales, were to be "incorporated, united and annexed to and with his Realm of England".

This meant either that there were now thirteen counties in the unified country of Wales, or that all Welsh counties, including the existing eight, were now part of England. There was no differentiation between Monmouthshire and the other counties and it's illogical to believe that the draftees of the Act of Union would have purposely created four Welsh counties and one English one in the creation of the new unified country of Wales.

It is important to note that prior to 1536 the lands that were to make up Monmouthshire were never a part of England.


Click HERE for a map of Wales after the Union


THE LAW


The confusion which caused a differentiation between Monmouthshire and the other counties of Wales was due to the Act of 1542 when English Common Law was made applicable to the whole of Wales. This gave a statutory foundation to the Court of the Council of the Marches, and justice and administration for Wales were vested in the officers of a new court - the King's Great Session in Wales.

The Great Session for Wales was organised into four circuits, each consisting of three counties, and which would each have two justices.

1) The justices of north Wales held courts twice annually for six days in the three shire towns of Anglesey, Caernarfon and Merioneth.

2) The justices of Chester did the same for Flint, Denbigh and Montgomery.

3) Similarly circuits in the south included Cardiganshire, Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire, and the last,

4) Glamorgan, Breconshire, and Radnorshire.

Which left the thirteenth county, Monmouthshire, which did not fit mathematically with the others.
So by reason of geographic proximity (nearest part of Wales to London) - it came under the jurisdiction of the Courts of Chancery and Exchequer at Westminster. Ecclesiastically, though, the county remained in the diocese of Llandaff and culturally, linguistically and in every other respect continued to be Welsh.

(There were certain advantages to this arrangement. One of these was that Monmouthshire was allowed to send two Knights to Parliament like English counties unlike the other Welsh counties which returned only one.) In the reign of Charles II Monmouthshire was included in the Oxford circuit, together with Oxford, Gloucester, Worcester and Hereford.

For more on the Act of Union see ACT OF UNION


THE MYTH OF MONMOUTHSHIRE


The question of the status of the county did not arise until the late Victorian period with the increasing Anglicization of the area. Some of the local gentry, like the dukes of Beaufort established family seats in England and abandoned Wales altogether. At the same time many industrialists came to Monmouthshire from England and remained English in their outlook, particularly in the eastern part of the county. For these and others with social aspirations all things English became desirable while those things Welsh were not. As a consequence, there was an attempt to refine what might best be described as the Myth of Monmouthshire - the notion that the administrative anachronisms in the Act of Union had in some way made the county non-Welsh. The distinction implied in the description " Wales and Monmouthshire " was nurtured, and was gradually accepted on the English side of the border, with a degree of official sanction being given to the notion.


GWENT


The county retained the name of Monmouthshire until the reorganisation of local government in April 1974 when the new county of Gwent was created along roughly the same boundaries as the "old" county of Monmouthshire .

To all intents and purposes the new county of Gwent replaced the old county of Monmouthshire in every respect.

(see Footnote)


FURTHER REORGANISATION


Gwent was then broken up in a further reorganisation of local government in 1996 and replaced by five Unitary Authorities.

Of these new authorities one is called (incredibly) MONMOUTHSHIRE, which is administrated from Cwmbran and includes Monmouth, Abergavenny, Caldicot, Chepstow and Usk.
The "new" Monmouthshire is by far the largest authority by area but is less populous than the others.

The other four are:

CAERPHILLY/CAERFFILI * Comprising Caerphilly and the Rhymney valley, (which used to be over the border in Glamorgan ) combined with the former Gwent borough of Islwyn, i.e the Blackwood, Pontllanfraith, Abercarn and Risca areas.

(Oakdale is in this new County Borough.)

BLAENAU GWENT, which covers Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Abertillery, Nantyglo and Blaina.

TORFAEN The Pontypool area, including Blaenafon and Cwmbran.

The County Borough of NEWPORT. (Newport is the largest town in the area.)

* See Footnote 2 for pronunciations


A FEW POINTS WORTH CONSIDERING





1) William Shakespeare, writing in 1599 - after the Act of Union, had no doubt that Monmouth was in Wales. In a scene in Henry V before the Battle of Agincourt there is the following dualogue:
(Fluellen) "....and I do believe, your majesty takes no scorn to wear the leek upon St Tavy's day.
(King Henry) I wear it for a memorable honour; For I am Welsh, you know, good countryman." Henry, as we have seen, was born in Monmouth

2) In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". The following writers describe Monmouthshire as being in Wales: Humphrey Llwyd (History of Cambria 1568); Churchyard (Worthiness of Wales 1587); Drayton (Polyolbion 1613); Enderbie (1666); and Doddridge (Historical Account of the Prince of Wales 1714.) In the reign of James I (1603-25), Camden and John Jones of Gelli Llyfdy wrote of "..the thirteen counties of Wales" and evidently included Monmouthshire in Wales.

3) Until the Industrial Revolution the dominant language in the county was Welsh. For instance, in 1815 half the inhabitants of Blaenafon could speak no English at all. By 1841 61% of the population of the town were still speaking Welsh, although the vast majority were bilingual by then, and even in the middle 1890s over 60% of the population in the western valleys were speaking Welsh.

4) Laws which were peculiar to Wales and which did not apply in England always included Monmouthshire, e.g.
a) Acts of Parliament referring to Welsh education such as the Welsh
Intermediate Education Act of 1889 included Monmouthshire in their provisions.


b) The Licensing Act enforcing Sunday closing applied to Monmouthshire
along with the rest of Wales, but did not apply to England.


c) Monmouthshire was included in the Welsh Cemeteries Act 1908

5) The Church of Wales came into being in 1920, when the disestablished church severed its links with Canterbury, and the Diocese of Monmouth was created in 1921 as part of that church.

6) In sport Monmouthshire players have always been eligible to play for Wales, but not for England. (Try telling the famous Pontypool front row of Graham Price, Bobby Windsor and Charlie Faulkner that they should have played for England !!!!!)


CONCLUSION
So, to sum up :

The County of Monmouthshire has always had exactly the same status as any other Welsh county, i.e it has always been in Wales.

For the purpose of legal administrative convenience only, Monmouthshire was appended to the English counties, which gave rise to the belief by some that it was "in England". Those who persist in maintaining that Monmouthshire was, and still should be, in England should ask themselves the question : "WHEN, and WHY was Monmouthshire created?"

And a final thought. Present day Monmouthshire was once a small part of Gwent, which was formerly called Monmouthshire, part of which was originally called -
Gwent !


Confusing, isn't it?

See also BBC History and
Monmouth




Footnote : The name Gwent was a reversion to a much older name which originally applied to the district enclosed by the Usk, the Wye, the Monnow and the sea. The old Kingdom of Gwent was absorbed by a new larger Kingdom of Glywysing in the 7th and 8th centuries, but in the 11th century intruding dynasties revived Gwent and the contracting Glywysing became known as Morgannwg, later Glamorgan.
Gwent was divided into two areas, Gwent Iscoed (Gwent, or field, below the wood) and Gwent Uwchcoed (Gwent above the wood.)



Footnote 2: Welsh pronunciation is quite difficult for non Welsh speakers but we'll try:
CAERPHILLY (k-eye-r-filly), ISLWYN (iss-lo-wn), BLAENAU GWENT (bl-aye-no gwent), TORFAEN (tor-vaeen).

If you have speakers attached to your computer you can listen to them by clicking on these links :


Caerfilli Islwyn Blaenau Gwent Torfaen

Footnote 3:

England has existed as a unified entity since the 10th century; the union between England and Wales, begun in 1284 with the Statute of Rhuddlan, was not formalized until 1536 with an Act of Union; in another Act of Union in 1707, England and Scotland agreed to permanently join as Great Britain; the legislative union of Great Britain and Ireland was implemented in 1801, with the adoption of the name the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland; the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921 formalized a partition of Ireland; six northern Irish counties remained part of the United Kingdom as Northern Ireland and the current name of the country, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, was adopted in 1927.

When joined by the Republic of Ireland it is known as the British Isles.


Footnote 4: Monmouthshire was created from :

a) The ancient Welsh kingdom of Gwent
b) The cantref (hundred) of Gwynllwg


(The Lordship of Ewyas was attached to Hereford but the Vale of Honddu comprising the Priory of Llanthony was included in Monmouthshire.)




No doubt about it:

Monmouthshire has ALWAYS been in Wales .

ENGLAND OR WALES ?


There has long been a dispute about whether Monmouthshire was actually in Wales or in England.
But the majority of people who lived there were in no doubt about where their allegiance lay - with Wales, despite the fact that during the nineteenth century there was a tremendous influx of English migrants who came to work in the mines and iron works which sprang up in the upper reaches of the valleys.

Most of the original inhabitants then were Welsh speaking and proud of their Welsh heritage. After only a few generations most of the English speaking immigrants came to regard themselves as being Welsh too.

Monmouthshire is the second most populous of the old Welsh counties with around 474,000 people - less than half that of Glamorgan

It is the fourth smallest Welsh county, only bigger than Radnorshire, Anglesey and Flintshire

Monmouthshire was created in 1536 from the marcher lordships of Newport, Abergavenny, Monmouth, Chepstow, Caerleon and Usk

Its status as a Welsh county fell into doubt in 1543 when it was omitted from the second Act of Union which established the Court of Great Session legal system in Wales

As a result, until 1900 certain Welsh laws were deemed not to apply to Monmouthshire, such as the closure of public houses on Sundays

Its status as part of Wales was re-confirmed in 1974 when the administrative county was replaced by Gwent

A smaller rural county council called Monmouthshire was created in the local government reorganisation of 1996

More about the Enlish Dem`s:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Englishdemocrats/

http://www.ex-parrot.com/~chris/wwwitter/20040608-bloody_english_democrats_again.html

No better than the BNP ..

One has to ask. Why are the English Democrats so anxious to get their hands on this part of Wales?

kathy wrote:
One has to ask. Why are the English Democrats so anxious to get their hands on this part of Wales?

A very good question Kathy, could it be that the English Democrats can`t get any major support in their own country , which is no wonder if they continue to lie to try to get votes.

My wife and I were both born in England and now live in Monmouthshire, there is no way we would vote for the English Democrats or BNP.

Most people in Monmouthshire regard themselves as living in Wales, I suspect this is a publicity stunt from a Micky Mouse party and it`s worked, they`ve had a little bit of publicity out of it.

It will be interesting to see how their candidates get on not in Monmouthshire but in the local elections in England - bottom 2 I would say ..

Nat

Where do the English Democrat Candidates live? & who pays for their referendum ?

I think we should "DUMP" all Welsh, Scottish & Irish Politicians in the Thames so that we can have our English Parliament Back, and our English Money !

As pointed out above, the author of this crude, illiterate, bigoted (and vaguely threatening) rant is a member of the English Democrats. In fact, not just a member, but a candidate of theirs for the South Wales East region in this Assembly election.

My, they've got some real quality in their ranks...

The English Democrats are no better than the BNP in the way they are trying to stir up trouble with their Welsh neighbours through their lies about Monmouth.

Many "contributors" on message boards are just 1 or 2 English Dems posing as a number of different posters.

Why are the English Dems telling lies & stirring up trouble in Wales when they should be in England campaigning for their English Parliament they say they want.?

They have consistantly failed to say who should pay the thousands of £`s for their referendum.
The Welsh tax payer maybe ??
The council tax payer of Monmouthshire ??
The English Dems themselves ??

They have consistantly failed to say where their candidates in Wales live - although that should come out in the near future.

I would not be surprised if there are strong links between the English Dems & BNP .... Would you want to vote for these MUPPETS ??

Mike Parker wrote:

I think we should \\\"DUMP\\\" all Welsh, Scottish & Irish Politicians in the Thames so that we can have our English Parliament Back, and our English Money !

As pointed out above, the author of this crude, illiterate, bigoted (and vaguely threatening) rant is a member of the English Democrats. In fact, not just a member, but a candidate of theirs for the South Wales East region in this Assembly election. My, they\\\'ve got some real quality in their ranks...

Well well well - Come on then Steven are you planning to move to Wales - please tell us ..

JimmyMc

Fred Forsythe (not the) wrote:

Mervyn James wrote:
I think we should dump the English Democrats in the Severn frankly, the BNP has reared it\'s ugly head as well. These Monmoushire is in Wales yes no debates are very annoying and pointless. Had to laugh at the 1 in 7 statistic, that\'s the statistic used to identify the DEAF lolol !

I resent you trying to associate the English Democrats with the BNP.
Are you a Trot? If not you may not be aware that there would be a welcome in their camp for a kindred spirit of your ilk.
We are not racist in any way. Our only criteria is a love of our Country and our kinsman or is that a sentiment reserved only for the minor nations of Britain?
What you have tried to do is despicable. Your comments are meaningless and shallow. If you do not have the intellect for debate kindly refrain from participating in an argument that is obviously beyond your mental capacity.

if you are suggesting that the BNP are not racist, maybe it is you that does not have the intelect to for debate. They have a leader with convictions for incitement to racial hatered, as do many of the main activists. thier manifesto is full of race obsessed nonsense and they are constantly spouting lies and rubbish about any one that does not fit into thier vision of 'british'. On the radio last week Griffin stated that you cannot be welsh and black. what a load of tripe.

As an English Democrat I feel it important to respond to some of the comments posted on this thread which are simply not accurate.

It is great to see that the debate is finally starting, a debate that should have happened over 30 years ago.

As a DEMOCRAT I am committed to the government of the people, by the people, for the people. Those with power to affect our way of life must be answerable to the people.
It was in 1972 that two politicians Edward Heath and George Thomas conspired to dilute the nationalist vote in Wales by putting 400,000 English people into the voting population knowing full well that the English would not vote for a Welsh National Party. The entire parliamentary ‘debate’was over in less than one minute, interestingly there is no record of the five MP’s representing Monmouthshire and Newport (Neil Kinnock, Michael Foot, Leo Abse, Roy Hughes and John Stradling Thomas) speaking one word for or against the proposal.

The fact that they made no comment on the most historic event to happen to Monmouth for over 400 years and not one word in Parliament constitutes a grave abuse of the trust that should exist between MPs and their constituents; a gross dereliction of duty.
The campaign is for the people of Monmouthshire to be allowed the opportunity to express their democratic view on their preferred national identity, an opportunity which has thus far been denied.

What TRUE democrat can object to this?

JimmyMc wrote:
The English Democrats are no better than the BNP in the way they are trying to stir up trouble with their Welsh neighbours through their lies about Monmouth. Many \\\\\\\"contributors\\\\\\\" on message boards are just 1 or 2 English Dems posing as a number of different posters. Why are the English Dems telling lies & stirring up trouble in Wales when they should be in England campaigning for their English Parliament they say they want.? They have consistantly failed to say who should pay the thousands of £`s for their referendum. The Welsh tax payer maybe ?? The council tax payer of Monmouthshire ?? The English Dems themselves ?? They have consistantly failed to say where their candidates in Wales live - although that should come out in the near future. I would not be surprised if there are strong links between the English Dems & BNP .... Would you want to vote for these MUPPETS ??

Mc J

You are really missing the point, please do not misrepresent the English Democrats...you only serve to discredit some the more sensible discussion points you raise.

David Lane wrote:

JimmyMc wrote: The English Democrats are no better than the BNP in the way they are trying to stir up trouble with their Welsh neighbours through their lies about Monmouth. Many \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"contributors\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" on message boards are just 1 or 2 English Dems posing as a number of different posters. Why are the English Dems telling lies & stirring up trouble in Wales when they should be in England campaigning for their English Parliament they say they want.? They have consistantly failed to say who should pay the thousands of £`s for their referendum. The Welsh tax payer maybe ?? The council tax payer of Monmouthshire ?? The English Dems themselves ?? They have consistantly failed to say where their candidates in Wales live - although that should come out in the near future. I would not be surprised if there are strong links between the English Dems & BNP .... Would you want to vote for these MUPPETS ??

Mc J You are really missing the point, please do not misrepresent the English Democrats...you only serve to discredit some the more sensible discussion points you raise.

Are you the David Lane that`s standing for the English Dem`s in Wales ??

Well why arn`t you in England campaining for an English Parliament ??

Who wants to tell Joe Calzake he no longer lives in Wales ??

Who wants to tell the Pontypool front row to hand back their Welsh Caps as they are no longer in Wales ??

This party just can`t be taken seriously

Clint wrote:

Fred Forsythe (not the) wrote:

Mervyn James wrote: I think we should dump the English Democrats in the Severn frankly, the BNP has reared it\\\'s ugly head as well. These Monmoushire is in Wales yes no debates are very annoying and pointless. Had to laugh at the 1 in 7 statistic, that\\\'s the statistic used to identify the DEAF lolol !

I resent you trying to associate the English Democrats with the BNP. Are you a Trot? If not you may not be aware that there would be a welcome in their camp for a kindred spirit of your ilk. We are not racist in any way. Our only criteria is a love of our Country and our kinsman or is that a sentiment reserved only for the minor nations of Britain? What you have tried to do is despicable. Your comments are meaningless and shallow. If you do not have the intellect for debate kindly refrain from participating in an argument that is obviously beyond your mental capacity.

if you are suggesting that the BNP are not racist, maybe it is you that does not have the intelect to for debate. They have a leader with convictions for incitement to racial hatered, as do many of the main activists. thier manifesto is full of race obsessed nonsense and they are constantly spouting lies and rubbish about any one that does not fit into thier vision of \'british\'. On the radio last week Griffin stated that you cannot be welsh and black. what a load of tripe.

Mr Lane wants a debate which should have taken place 30 years ago - WHY

Monmouthshire is Welsh, always has been and always will be .. No need for a debate ..

Although we all know that the English Dems are good mass debaters

8-)

JimmyMc - for Wales

Why do the mass debaters only want to debate the last 30 years ??

Why do the English Dems want to wipe out and ignore 100`s of years of Welsh history in Monmouthshire ??

Convenient to ignore the past for their own aims.

Mr Lane grab Mr Uncles and scuttle off to England and campaign for an English Parliament to look after the good folk of England - stop trouble making in Wales ..

JimmyMc

By the way:

Steven Uncles is down for 2 council elections in Kent and the Welsh Assembly - Will he move to WALES if he gets elected to the Assembly - what will his top priority be, the council seats in Kent or the electorate in WALES ??

David Lane wrote:
As an English Democrat I feel it important to respond to some of the comments posted on this thread which are simply not accurate. It is great to see that the debate is finally starting, a debate that should have happened over 30 years ago. As a DEMOCRAT I am committed to the government of the people, by the people, for the people. Those with power to affect our way of life must be answerable to the people. It was in 1972 that two politicians Edward Heath and George Thomas conspired to dilute the nationalist vote in Wales by putting 400,000 English people into the voting population knowing full well that the English would not vote for a Welsh National Party. The entire parliamentary ‘debate’was over in less than one minute, interestingly there is no record of the five MP’s representing Monmouthshire and Newport (Neil Kinnock, Michael Foot, Leo Abse, Roy Hughes and John Stradling Thomas) speaking one word for or against the proposal. The fact that they made no comment on the most historic event to happen to Monmouth for over 400 years and not one word in Parliament constitutes a grave abuse of the trust that should exist between MPs and their constituents; a gross dereliction of duty. The campaign is for the people of Monmouthshire to be allowed the opportunity to express their democratic view on their preferred national identity, an opportunity which has thus far been denied. What TRUE democrat can object to this?

Monmouthshire has been in Wales forever - Why do you conviently forget that Mr Lane - forget the past 50 years what about the past 500 years ???

Monmouth ~ Ed Abrams

This gentleman is also standing at the English council elections.

Please can he inform us what his top priority is, English Council or Welsh Assembly?

If elected to the Welsh Assembly is Mr Ed Abrams prepared to move to Wales to look after the Monmouth electorate ?

JimmyMc wrote:
bold I recognise the names of certain people commenting being members of the English Dems. What you have to realise is that the English Dems are polling just above the Raving Loonies and are using the people of Wales as a gimmick to get plenty of press .. They will realsie one day they need the support of the English press and are just wasting every ones time with this useless campaign. Monmouthshire is WELSH without a doubt and the English Dems just want to wipe out centuaries of WELSH history in Monmouthshire. I call on everyone to send them packing on May 3rd back to England where they should be campaigning for an English Parliament - Not interfering and trying to cause trouble with the people of WALES. JimmyMc

I don't think that you have done your home work or you would not shout about that.
What you do not seem to know is that in May 1991 the Monster Raving Looney Party beat Plaid Cymru in Monmouth.Plaid Peter carpenter 164. bold] 'Screaming Lord Such' 314 votes
See South Wales Argus May 17th 1991!!

You paid political agitators need to get facts first then try your hand at debate. Egg on face again Mc.

*sigh*. The usual nonsense is being spouted here.

Jamie, in reference to the Laws in Wales Act 1535 states "
So where was the democratic rights of the Welsh ??". If he has even read the Act he will understand that it was about abolishing the powers of the unelected Marcher Lords and allowing members of Parliament to be chosen instead. It was nothing to do with "one country taking over another" as so many Welsh nationalists want to believe. It was about harmonising laws. The dominion of Wales had already been absorbed into the kingdom of England by 1284 at the latest.

JimmyMc's erudite posting is "Monmouthshire has been in Wales forever". Which is clearly nonsense. The concept of "Wales" is not something that has existed "forever" for a start. And the legal fact is that until 1974 it WAS legally part of England. You can rant and rave all you like, but check your facts...

I was sceptical at first of the English Democrats claims. Now I have looked at their assertions I am convinced of their case. What is wrong with asking people? Surely it is more democratic than the actions of those who selfishly betrayed the people of Monmouthshire in 1974.

No one but the politicians won anything from this slight of hand.
England lost land and nationals.
Wales was deprived of the democratic opportunity to choose their own nationalist party. Their electoral balance was artificially manipulated.
The Monmouthians lost their nationality, culture and history and if the UK splits up, their future prosperity.

Direct quote from Win Griffin MP Welsh Office) to Paul Murphy MP August 1979.
“The Local Government Act 1972 abolished the administrative county of Monmouthshire and the county borough of Newport, which until then were legally part of England.”
Ordnance Survey

Romsey Road, SOUTHAMPTON, SO94DH.
Tel: Dial direct or Switchboard 0703 792000 Fax: 0703 792404 Minicom: 0703 792045
28 October 1994
Ordnance Survey only changes boundaries on its maps as a result of an Act of Parliament, and the boundaries affected in this way are local government boundaries and parliamentary boundaries.
Prior to the Local Government Act of 1972, which was operative April 1974, Monmouthshire was shown in England, Since that date, however, it has been shown as Gwent in Wales.
This confirms your understanding of the situation as stated in your letter dated 11 October.
I have not written to the South Wales Argus, but if you want to inform them of the official reason for the 'movement' of Monmouthshire from England to Wales please feel free to use this letter.
Yours sincerely
Phil Aldridge
Press Office

They will have a problem arguing with that!
FACT NOT WISHFUL ROMANTICISING (You are not altogether to blame as your origins were carefully erased by your education system.)

Good luck to the English Democrats, I hope that you do not forget your moral attitudes as your party matures.

Please be advised that I recognise at least two of the virulent anti posters that are giving you hassle, they are known Labour party activists who are probably using other stooges as well in order to discredit you.

This is the problem. A referendum is the democratic thing to do, but the people who will be voting in any referendum are woefully uneducated on the subject...

Owain Vaughan wrote:
*sigh*. The usual nonsense is being spouted here. Jamie, in reference to the Laws in Wales Act 1535 states " So where was the democratic rights of the Welsh ??". If he has even read the Act he will understand that it was about abolishing the powers of the unelected Marcher Lords and allowing members of Parliament to be chosen instead. It was nothing to do with "one country taking over another" as so many Welsh nationalists want to believe. It was about harmonising laws. The dominion of Wales had already been absorbed into the kingdom of England by 1284 at the latest. JimmyMc's erudite posting is "Monmouthshire has been in Wales forever". Which is clearly nonsense. The concept of "Wales" is not something that has existed "forever" for a start. And the legal fact is that until 1974 it WAS legally part of England. You can rant and rave all you like, but check your facts...

Facts have been checked - you check the history of Monmouthshire WALES over the last 500 years .. Your time will be better spent across the border looking after the English instead of coming to WALES troublemaking. English Dems & BNP = Trouble makers ..

Fred Forsyth (Not the FF) wrote:

JimmyMc wrote: bold I recognise the names of certain people commenting being members of the English Dems. What you have to realise is that the English Dems are polling just above the Raving Loonies and are using the people of Wales as a gimmick to get plenty of press .. They will realsie one day they need the support of the English press and are just wasting every ones time with this useless campaign. Monmouthshire is WELSH without a doubt and the English Dems just want to wipe out centuaries of WELSH history in Monmouthshire. I call on everyone to send them packing on May 3rd back to England where they should be campaigning for an English Parliament - Not interfering and trying to cause trouble with the people of WALES. JimmyMc

I don\'t think that you have done your home work or you would not shout about that. What you do not seem to know is that in May 1991 the Monster Raving Looney Party beat Plaid Cymru in Monmouth.Plaid Peter carpenter 164. bold] \'Screaming Lord Such\' 314 votes See South Wales Argus May 17th 1991!! You paid political agitators need to get facts first then try your hand at debate. Egg on face again Mc.

Ha Ha Ha Dream On Uncles

Owain Vaughan wrote:
This is the problem. A referendum is the democratic thing to do, but the people who will be voting in any referendum are woefully uneducated on the subject...

A referendum is not needed - Monmouthshire was in Wales before the English Dems formed and will be in Wales after they have disbanded ..

Who pays for any referendum ??

Who pays for any referendum ??

.
.
Who pays for any referendum ??

.
.

Please stop spamming; this is not instant messaging.

What "Facts" have you checked? The Local Government Act 1972 clearly states that in the section of new local government areas in England "In this section "England" does not include the administrative county of Monmouthshire or the county borough of Newport. In all other contexts it did otherwise they wouldn't need to state it! How much more clear-cut logic do you need? I have already posted the quote from the Laws in Wales Act 1542 that enumerates the counties in Wales as 12 (excluding Monmouth).

What is your evidence to the contrary?

JimmyMc wrote:

Fred Forsyth (Not the FF) wrote:

JimmyMc wrote: bold I recognise the names of certain people commenting being members of the English Dems. What you have to realise is that the English Dems are polling just above the Raving Loonies and are using the people of Wales as a gimmick to get plenty of press .. They will realsie one day they need the support of the English press and are just wasting every ones time with this useless campaign. Monmouthshire is WELSH without a doubt and the English Dems just want to wipe out centuaries of WELSH history in Monmouthshire. I call on everyone to send them packing on May 3rd back to England where they should be campaigning for an English Parliament - Not interfering and trying to cause trouble with the people of WALES. JimmyMc

I don\\\'t think that you have done your home work or you would not shout about that. What you do not seem to know is that in May 1991 the Monster Raving Looney Party beat Plaid Cymru in Monmouth.Plaid Peter carpenter 164. bold] \\\'Screaming Lord Such\\\' 314 votes See South Wales Argus May 17th 1991!! You paid political agitators need to get facts first then try your hand at debate. Egg on face again Mc.

Ha Ha Ha Dream On Uncles

I have given you the reference. Get off you rear and check! I ma not 'Uncles' but I do know who you are, what party you belong to and why you are posting. It is called dirty politics.
Go check, if you do not then I suggest other readers do.
I have given you figures and names. Refute it with facts not an embarrassed grimace.

Fred Forsythe (not the FF) wrote:

JimmyMc wrote:

Fred Forsyth (Not the FF) wrote:

JimmyMc wrote: bold I recognise the names of certain people commenting being members of the English Dems. What you have to realise is that the English Dems are polling just above the Raving Loonies and are using the people of Wales as a gimmick to get plenty of press .. They will realsie one day they need the support of the English press and are just wasting every ones time with this useless campaign. Monmouthshire is WELSH without a doubt and the English Dems just want to wipe out centuaries of WELSH history in Monmouthshire. I call on everyone to send them packing on May 3rd back to England where they should be campaigning for an English Parliament - Not interfering and trying to cause trouble with the people of WALES. JimmyMc

I don\\\'t think that you have done your home work or you would not shout about that. What you do not seem to know is that in May 1991 the Monster Raving Looney Party beat Plaid Cymru in Monmouth.Plaid Peter carpenter 164. bold] \\\'Screaming Lord Such\\\' 314 votes See South Wales Argus May 17th 1991!! You paid political agitators need to get facts first then try your hand at debate. Egg on face again Mc.

Ha Ha Ha Dream On Uncles

I have given you the reference. Get off you rear and check! I ma not 'Uncles' but I do know who you are, what party you belong to and why you are posting. It is called dirty politics. Go check, if you do not then I suggest other readers do. I have given you figures and names. Refute it with facts not an embarrassed grimace.

Hey Fred - you are wrong on all counts - nothing new there then ....

Monmouthshire is Welsh, If you don`t like it TUFF ...

JimmyMc

Will you English Dems please tell us:

.
.

Who pays for any referendum ??

.
.

Owain Vaughan wrote:
Please stop spamming; this is not instant messaging. What \"Facts\" have you checked? The Local Government Act 1972 clearly states that in the section of new local government areas in England \"In this section \"England\" does not include the administrative county of Monmouthshire or the county borough of Newport. In all other contexts it did otherwise they wouldn\'t need to state it! How much more clear-cut logic do you need? I have already posted the quote from the Laws in Wales Act 1542 that enumerates the counties in Wales as 12 (excluding Monmouth). What is your evidence to the contrary?

Jesus! They you so obsessed that they do not believe their own Welsh Office? I have named the MP Win Griffiths. If I could post the actual letter on this site I would. Signature included. Why did Heath and Thomas need to slink the act through Westminster in such a devious fashion. It is accepted that an act of parliament decided Monmouthshire's nationality. Why was it necessary if it was already in Wales?

They ignore OS maps, which only work to six figure references so they could easily miss a county of 400 sq miles.
What arrogance.
Waste of breath. Time will tell! When the UK splits and a decent government once again take over England Monmouthshire will wish it had decided instead of meekly accepting the plot of '74.

JimmyMc wrote:
Will you English Dems please tell us: . . Who pays for any referendum ?? . .

Those who (temporarily) pay the Barnett formula, who do you think?

Here you go again - ignoring over 500 years of Welsh history in Monmouthshire ...

Now:

Will you English Dems please tell us:

.
.

Who pays for any referendum ?? .
.

JimmyMc - these idiots are beleiving their own lies.

Monmouth ~ Ed Abrams is standing where I live, he is also standing in the English council elections, I guess we will not see him knocking my door as his priorities lie in England so why the he1l should I vote for him or the EDP on the list .

The English Democrats were formed to fight for an English Parliament, so why are they troublemaking in Wales?

I`ve been working in England for the last 10 days (on & off) and have asked about 55 people if they will be voting English Democrats, almost all of them said English who ?? That says it all, they are not even known in many parts of their own country.

Fact: Most of England will NOT be voting English Democrat so why should the people of Wales ??

This is all barmy! No-one in Monmouthshire wants to be part of England.

David Evans wrote:
JimmyMc - these idiots are beleiving their own lies. Monmouth ~ Ed Abrams is standing where I live, he is also standing in the English council elections, I guess we will not see him knocking my door as his priorities lie in England so why the he1l should I vote for him or the EDP on the list . The English Democrats were formed to fight for an English Parliament, so why are they troublemaking in Wales? I`ve been working in England for the last 10 days (on & off) and have asked about 55 people if they will be voting English Democrats, almost all of them said English who ?? That says it all, they are not even known in many parts of their own country. Fact: Most of England will NOT be voting English Democrat so why should the people of Wales ??

Both my wife & I were born in England and there`s no way we would vote English Democrats / BNP. Keep Monmouthshire Welsh.

Clint wrote:
This is all barmy! No-one in Monmouthshire wants to be part of England.

I agree Clint, Why are so many wasting so much time on this non starter ?

Just to make it clear I was responding to this post:

"I think we should dump the English Democrats in the Severn frankly, the BNP has reared it's ugly head as well.

These Monmoushire is in Wales yes no debates are very annoying and pointless.

Had to laugh at the 1 in 7 statistic, that's the statistic used to identify the DEAF lolol !"

What I don't understand is if there is NO QUESTION that the people of Monmouthshire would vote to return to the official 1972 borders that put Monmouthshire in England (rightly or wrongly) why on earth are you getting so worked up ????

Jimmy Mc - thats a Welsh name - why don't you go back to Scotland ?

Jock **** wrote:
Jimmy Mc - thats a Welsh name - why don't you go back to Scotland ?

8-)

Never been to that wonderful country in my life although I do support the aims of the SNP ......

8-)

Steven Uncles wrote:
I think we should "DUMP" all Welsh, Scottish & Irish Politicians in the Thames so that we can have our English Parliament Back, and our English Money !

Steven Uncles from the English Democrats now showing his true colours ......

Steven - you are standing in 3 elections on May 3rd, Do you intend door knocking in the SE of Wales or is all your time sent in Kent ??

If you get elected to the Welsh Assembly are you going to move to Wales ??

Why should there be any sort of referendum on Monmouthshire - It`s only the English Democrats calling for one ??

You keep refering to 1972 in the mistaken belief that Monmouthshire was in England before that: Monmouthshire has been in WALES for hundreds of years, if you go back far enough you will find that the Welsh Language was the number 1 language in the Welsh county ....

.... Your time and money would be spent better in England campaigning for an English Assembly not troublemaking in Wales ....

By the way, the English Dems profile in England needs lifting a great deal, it appears most of the country have never heard of you and will not be voting for you ......

Jock **** wrote:
Jimmy Mc - thats a Welsh name - why don't you go back to Scotland ?

Nice one Uncles

8-)

Clint, I can think of loads of people that do. Yours is a typical response by people that are scared of something. Do you support undemocratic tinkering, or the proper democratic process by referendum?

Reading the ED website is quite disturbing. They constantly bang on about Wales and Scotland "stealing" what is rightfully England's through the Barnett formula and then spreading anti English propoganda through the Welsh/Scots media etc. The overall impression seems to be to make the English distrust and eventually dispise their neighbours. This is the first step to full blown racism as practiced in Nazi Germany where the Jews were (wrongly) blamed for all the countries ills. As far as the ED's seem to be concerned, every shopping centre opened, piece of news broadcast or hospital in Wales is paid for lock stock and barrel by England. This overlooks the convenient fact that Wales and Scotland pay taxes too, the Englissh pay more into the "pot" as there are more of them but by the same argument they take more out too.As the majority of ED members writing in seem to be from the south and one letter on a blog even stated that Wales' alledged English subsidy was really a S.E English subsidy, how long after they completely alienate the celtic nations will it take them to start on the good people of Liverpool, Middlesborough etc. This insiduous racism is even more sinister than the in your face bigotry practicd by the BNP..be afraid, be very afraid!

Owain Vaughan wrote:
Clint, I can think of loads of people that do. Yours is a typical response by people that are scared of something. Do you support undemocratic tinkering, or the proper democratic process by referendum?

What a load of Cr@p

Nick Owen wrote:
Reading the ED website is quite disturbing. They constantly bang on about Wales and Scotland \"stealing\" what is rightfully England\'s through the Barnett formula and then spreading anti English propoganda through the Welsh/Scots media etc. The overall impression seems to be to make the English distrust and eventually dispise their neighbours. This is the first step to full blown racism as practiced in Nazi Germany where the Jews were (wrongly) blamed for all the countries ills. As far as the ED\'s seem to be concerned, every shopping centre opened, piece of news broadcast or hospital in Wales is paid for lock stock and barrel by England. This overlooks the convenient fact that Wales and Scotland pay taxes too, the Englissh pay more into the \"pot\" as there are more of them but by the same argument they take more out too.As the majority of ED members writing in seem to be from the south and one letter on a blog even stated that Wales\' alledged English subsidy was really a S.E English subsidy, how long after they completely alienate the celtic nations will it take them to start on the good people of Liverpool, Middlesborough etc. This insiduous racism is even more sinister than the in your face bigotry practicd by the BNP..be afraid, be very afraid!

Very good observations Nick ..

English Dems worse than BNP ..

One thing is certain- most of England will NOT be voting for them so why should the people of Wales ?

JimmyMc, why are you suggesting what I wrote was crap? I know for a fact that plenty of people in Monmouthshire want to be part of England. A referendum is a democratic solution, undemocratic unilateral Acts of Parliament on the other hand are not.

Why should we have a referendum in any part of Wales just because the English dems say we should ?? they don`t even live here for God`s sake ..

Monmouthshire has been in Wales for centuries - Even the name is from the Welsh Language which was also spoke here in times past ...

Your people like Mr Uncles have insulted not just the Welsh but Irish and Scots as well - Then he expects the People of this part of Wales to vote for him and his Muppet party that`s not even known that well in England

Why are you lot ignoring over 500 years of Welsh history ??

English Dems and BNP = Racist trouble makers ...

Just a quick point. WE have to remember that the UK as a whole was originally Celtic (Welsh/Irish/Cornish/Scotish), not saxon, or norman.

Borders change, its a fact of life, Alaska was once part of Russia, California was part of Mexico. Should the USA be broken up. prob yes but you get the point

monouthshire is Welsh, you only have to look at the welsh toen names scattered through Gwent to see that

You can use place names to prove anything! If you consider the Marches to be part of Wales then you need to incorporate not only Monmouthshire but large parts of Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire too. There are plenty of "Welsh" place names there too.

You seem to be mixing up Welsh-language names and English-language names yourself! In one sentence you manage to use both "Gwent" and Monmouthshire to refer to the same place. Why?

Owain Vaughan wrote:
You can use place names to prove anything! If you consider the Marches to be part of Wales then you need to incorporate not only Monmouthshire but large parts of Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire too. There are plenty of "Welsh" place names there too. You seem to be mixing up Welsh-language names and English-language names yourself! In one sentence you manage to use both "Gwent" and Monmouthshire to refer to the same place. Why?

and your point is ????


Tell us where your priorities lie - Welsh Assembly or Council Elections in England ??

www.opac.newport.gov.uk/opac/ebook3/Page1.html

You will have to copy and paste.

All in all Gwent was the old monmouthshire, The boundries was relatively the same.

The reason why their are welsh names in those Englan area's are because at one point in History they were part of Wales. shall we have a referendum in those areas.

By the way i notice you haven't commented on the Celtic point. I wonder way that is

Owain Vaughan wrote:
You can use place names to prove anything! If you consider the Marches to be part of Wales then you need to incorporate not only Monmouthshire but large parts of Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Shropshire and Cheshire too. There are plenty of "Welsh" place names there too. You seem to be mixing up Welsh-language names and English-language names yourself! In one sentence you manage to use both "Gwent" and Monmouthshire to refer to the same place. Why?

Another point. I beleive, correct me if I'm wrong, that the Name Gwent and Monmouth both derive from the Welsh Language.

Tell us where your priorities lie - Welsh Assembly or Council Elections in England ??

Why are you asking me? I'm not a English Democrats candidate!

Joanne from Hereford. The first charter awarded to your city states:

"Know ye that we grant to our citizens of Hereford in Wales".
Also see http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/articles/2007/01/30/flood_feature.shtml
"God's warning to his people of England".

The facts are that Monmouthshire was definitively in England prior to April 1 1974 as the contemporary legislation states.

Owain Vaughan wrote:

Tell us where your priorities lie - Welsh Assembly or Council Elections in England ??

Why are you asking me? I'm not a English Democrats candidate! Joanne from Hereford. The first charter awarded to your city states: "Know ye that we grant to our citizens of Hereford in Wales". Also see http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/articles/2007/01/30/flood_feature.shtml "God's warning to his people of England". The facts are that Monmouthshire was definitively in England prior to April 1 1974 as the contemporary legislation states.

Yes you are an English Democrat using a number of names and locations as part of your deception and lies - just what we have come to expect from you E D`s ..

The real facts are that Monmouthshire, as pointed out to you muppets on a number of occasions has been part of WALES for hundreds of years so go back and read some real history books ...

Lies and deception - you lot are no better than your sister political party the BNP

In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". The following writers describe Monmouthshire as being in Wales: Humphrey Llwyd (History of Cambria 1568); Churchyard (Worthiness of Wales 1587); Drayton (Polyolbion 1613); Enderbie (1666; and Doddridge (Historical Account of the Prince of Wales 1714).

Towards the end of the reign of Charles II, Monmouthshire was included in the Oxford Circuit for assize purposes, This is where the confusion seems to have arisen. However, recent legislators have no doubt and Monmouthshire has been included in the Act disestablishing the Church in Wales, the Welsh Cemeteries Act 1908, the Welsh Language Act and the legislation reorganising Local Government in 1974 and 1996.
In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". The following writers describe Monmouthshire as being in Wales: Humphrey Llwyd (History of Cambria 1568); Churchyard (Worthiness of Wales 1587); Drayton (Polyolbion 1613); Enderbie (1666; and Doddridge (Historical Account of the Prince of Wales 1714).

Towards the end of the reign of Charles II, Monmouthshire was included in the Oxford Circuit for assize purposes, This is where the confusion seems to have arisen. However, recent legislators have no doubt and Monmouthshire has been included in the Act disestablishing the Church in Wales, the Welsh Cemeteries Act 1908, the Welsh Language Act and the legislation reorganising Local Government in 1974 and 1996.

You clearly haven't used this site before have you? I have been using this site since it was launched - go and read through the archives. Your general aggressive tone and complete lack of knowledge on the subject is quite terrifying. Read the Laws in Wales Act 1542 and Local Government Act 1933 for starters. It is there in black and white - Monmouthshire is not part of Wales it is part of England.

Anyone can cut and paste stuff from Wikipedia. It proves nothing. Places such as Hereford are in the marches of Wales. So what? In fact Hereford's charter of Richard I in 1189 is granted "to our citizens of Hereford in Wales". Scholars can say what they like, but the indesputable fact is that legally the county was part of England.

I`m from kent and still have family and friends down there.

I`m not sure about all this petty squabling, I always thought Monmouth was part of Wales, so if it`s not broke why fix it? Best left where it is.

I do have a little experience of the English Democrats though and speaking to friends back home in Kent. Basically they are all talk and no action. Go running to the press for the least little thing .. Friend who works on the Kent and Sussex Courior says they are always sending in useless press releases just to get their name in the press - when in comes to action they are no where to be seen.

Family and friends in Kent will never ever vote English Democrats due to past experience. I`ll never ever vote English Democrats either and I`m English.

Owain Vaughan wrote:
You clearly haven't used this site before have you? I have been using this site since it was launched - go and read through the archives. Your general aggressive tone and complete lack of knowledge on the subject is quite terrifying. Read the Laws in Wales Act 1542 and Local Government Act 1933 for starters. It is there in black and white - Monmouthshire is not part of Wales it is part of England.

In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". The following writers describe Monmouthshire as being in Wales: Humphrey Llwyd (History of Cambria 1568); Churchyard (Worthiness of Wales 1587); Drayton (Polyolbion 1613); Enderbie (1666; and Doddridge (Historical Account of the Prince of Wales 1714).

Man of Kent wrote:
I`m from kent and still have family and friends down there. I`m not sure about all this petty squabling, I always thought Monmouth was part of Wales, so if it`s not broke why fix it? Best left where it is. I do have a little experience of the English Democrats though and speaking to friends back home in Kent. Basically they are all talk and no action. Go running to the press for the least little thing .. Friend who works on the Kent and Sussex Courior says they are always sending in useless press releases just to get their name in the press - when in comes to action they are no where to be seen. Family and friends in Kent will never ever vote English Democrats due to past experience. I`ll never ever vote English Democrats either and I`m English.

Thanks - Diolch for the HONEST contribution Mr Man of Kent, much appreciated to see what the English Dems are really like.

If the majority of the English don`t vote for them why should the WELSH ..
JMc

JimmyMc, stop repeating yourself. As I have already pointed out, it doesn't matter what a bunch of people write, the legislation was quite clear on the point.

As for Man of Kent - I agree with you - it wasn't broken in 1974, so why did they change it?

JimmyMc wrote:

Man of Kent wrote: I`m from kent and still have family and friends down there. I`m not sure about all this petty squabling, I always thought Monmouth was part of Wales, so if it`s not broke why fix it? Best left where it is. I do have a little experience of the English Democrats though and speaking to friends back home in Kent. Basically they are all talk and no action. Go running to the press for the least little thing .. Friend who works on the Kent and Sussex Courior says they are always sending in useless press releases just to get their name in the press - when in comes to action they are no where to be seen. Family and friends in Kent will never ever vote English Democrats due to past experience. I`ll never ever vote English Democrats either and I`m English.

Thanks - Diolch for the HONEST contribution Mr Man of Kent, much appreciated to see what the English Dems are really like. If the majority of the English don`t vote for them why should the WELSH .. JMc

1st - don`t tell me what to do.

2nd - you are right, it wasnt broken in 1974, Monmouth was in Wales then and it`s in Wales now - Can I suggest you Go get an English Parliament to help the English

Go onto the Eng. Dem's website and follow some of the leads to private blogs etc, quotes like "we'll have an English parliament and all you Taffys, jocks,paddys,gays,pakis and feminists won't stop us!"Nice stuff,eh? I'm not a supporter of Plaid or the SNP but at least they don't base their nationalist agenda on blind hatred of anyone they perceive as "different". Very similar to UKIP actually, from the same stable maybe.
P.S How are you going to convince someone in Ebbw Vale or Blaina that they are English, no one seems to be able to answer that question. The valleys areas of Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen are about as "English" as Merthyr and the Rhondda. Newport and the the Chepstoew/Monmouth area might consider themselves English but not the valleys. Also,to any pro English Newportians, do you think you would have had a snowballs chance in **** of getting city status in 2002 if you'd been up against Reading and Preston as an English town instead of Wrexham and St. Asaph in Wales? Food for thaught!!!

Owain Vaughan wrote:
JimmyMc, stop repeating yourself. As I have already pointed out, it doesn\'t matter what a bunch of people write, the legislation was quite clear on the point. As for Man of Kent - I agree with you - it wasn\'t broken in 1974, so why did they change it?

1st - don`t tell me what to do.

2nd - you are right, it wasnt broken in 1974, Monmouth was in Wales then and it`s in Wales now - Can I suggest you Go get an English Parliament to help the English

JimmyMc, you attitude is of someone scared of something. Why is this?

I don't want an English Parliament, or a Scottish Parliament or a Welsh Parliament. I am British!

Owain Vaughan wrote:
JimmyMc, you attitude is of someone scared of something. Why is this? I don't want an English Parliament, or a Scottish Parliament or a Welsh Parliament. I am British!

You`re a plonker ..

Well I want a Welsh Parliament to run along side English & Scottish parliaments .

What I don`t except is someone standing for election to take a part of WALES by spouting lies and twisting the truth to meet their own aims .. Now go and campaign for an English Parliament which is one of the prime objectives of the EDP`s ..

Unforunatly they have shot themselves in the foot by trying to steal part of another country .. and in doing so have shown how they are racist liars no better than the BNP

Calm down JimmyMc. I'm not twisting the truth. I've read the relevant Acts of Parliament and Wyn Griffiths himself admitted it (as the scanned document on lettingmonmouthshiredecide.com shows).

Why aren't you listening to what I'm saying? I don't want an English Parliament, why are you asking me to campaign for one?

Your inability to listen is about as bad as your logic.

Owain Vaughan wrote:
Calm down JimmyMc. I'm not twisting the truth. I've read the relevant Acts of Parliament and Wyn Griffiths himself admitted it (as the scanned document on lettingmonmouthshiredecide.com shows). Why aren't you listening to what I'm saying? I don't want an English Parliament, why are you asking me to campaign for one? Your inability to listen is about as bad as your logic.

Because you are writing just like the other Muppets - WHY don`t YOU listen .. Monmouthshire was in Wales long befor Wyn Griffiths or his grandparents were around and will still be in WALES , where it belongs,after we have all left this earth .. No matter how you twist the truth ....

Where it belongs? What are you on about? What about Hereford? What about Oswestry? I am not twisting the truth I am presenting irrefutable facts. You may not want it to be that way, but it is.

From: Wales on Sunday:

Sunday, 25 February 2007




Laura Kemp, Wales on Sunday


We've been inundated with your letters after we reported the English Democrats would be standing in Monmouthshire for the National Assembly election in May...

THE English Democrats are off again writing to Wales on Sunday as part of their publicity stunt in claiming Monmouthshire to be English.

What you have to remember is that they are battling with the Monster Raving Loonies to see who come last in the polls. They need all the publicity they can get.

The English Democrats are really clutching at straws by referring to something that may or may not have happened in 1972.

They conveniently ignore hundreds of years of Welsh history in Monmouthshire.




Story continues

ADVERTISEMENT


In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". The following writers describe Monmouthshire as being in Wales: Humphrey Llwyd (History of Cambria 1568); Churchyard (Worthiness of Wales 1587); Drayton (Polyolbion 1613); Enderbie (1666; and Doddridge (Historical Account of the Prince of Wales 1714).


Monmouthshire was Welsh before 1972 and has remained Welsh ever since.


I believe that we are all custodians of our land and have no right to hand over control to another country.


All of Wales belong to future generations and we should do our best to hand over our country in the best condition we can and intact.


As for the English Democrats - good luck in beating the Monster Raving Loonies.


JIMMY MCKENZIE, Cardiff


IN RESPONSE to Ed Abrams of the English Democrats, might I suggest that the English (Anglo Saxons) living in that part of Britain now claimed as 'England' are deemed in the eyes of the Welsh (Celts) to be immigrants.


After the fall of the Roman Empire and the Italians' retreat to their own land, it returned control of Britain to its native Celts.


Around 500AD, the country was invaded by the Anglo Saxons (Germans) who over the next 500 years conquered that area now deemed to be England.


Initially the Celts were pushed back to the west of the River Severn, and the Welsh Marches were contested by both Saxon and Welsh chieftains or minor kings.


It was not until the Norman conquest and a castle being built at Chepstow by the Norman lord William Fitz Osbern, that the river Wye became the border for this area of Wales. However, even after he established the castle, he went on as the newly-created Earl of Herefordshire, to use the safe haven of the castle as a base for further advancement into Gwent.


The county continued to be disputed by several Norman lords including those of Herefordshire, Gloucestershire and it was even part of the Duke of Norfolk's estate at one time.


The Welsh Prince Owain Glyn-Dwr conquered and repossessed the area, but even he failed to take Chepstow Castle.


The heart of a county is with its people, and until a few hundred years ago, Welsh was the first language spoken by the people of this area. I know dozens of residents in the county who consider themselves as Welsh, but have never met one who wished to be English!


B. MARTIN WEAVER, Merthyr Tydfil


I NOTE the English Democrats have their letter-writing campaign underway re: Monmouthshire. I have never, ever read such nonsense.


I have been researching my family history and have researched back to 1732. ALL documents I have come across put Monmouthshire firmly in Wales. I was born in Monmouth town and have always regarded myself as Welsh, as have everyone else around me. We are not going to change now for the English Democrats.


ART FINCH, Monmouth


WHAT on earth is English Democrat candidate Ed Abrams rambling on about?


May I point out the former county of Monmouthshire was created in 1889 and abolished in 1974.


The current council with that name is not a county, it's a unitary authority that's been granted the right to call itself a county.


Let's face it, Gwent is Welsh.


If the English Democrats disagree then stand in every Gwent constituency at the Assembly election and let's all have a chuckle at your expense.


IAN JONES, Croesyceiliog


ED ABRAMS, English Democrats candidate for the Assembly election, writes with a distorted logic of history and a touch of xenophobia.


A little research would educate him of the overwhelming desire of West Gwent to remain in its proper place - and that certainly isn't England.


D DAVIES, Swansea

From:

ABERGAVENNY, Monmouthshire - Extract from National Gazetteer, 1868

"ABERGAVENNY, a parish and market town in the hundred of Abergavenny, in the county of Monmouth, 14 miles to the W. of Monmouth, and 143 miles from London, or 165½ by the Great Western railway. It is situated in a range of pleasant meadow grounds at the confluence of the Usk and Gavenny. The mountains terminate abruptly near the town, and the scenery is very picturesque. One of the hills, called the Sugar Loaf, rises to the height of nearly 1,900 feet. Another lofty one is the Skirrid Vawr.

There is a town-hall, gas-works, a union poor-house, and a large hall, erected for the use of the Abergavenny Cymreigyd-dion Society. This society was established in the ear 1832, for the purpose of promoting the study of Welsh literature and music, and for the encouragement of native industry and manufactures. Large numbers of persons from all parts of the principality assemble at the annual festival of this society, which is held in the month of October, in the great hall.

There`s no doubt that Abergavenny was in Wales in 1868, over 100 years before 1972.

You will have to Copy and paste to your address bar:

http://www.halefamily.net/1284.html

Map of Wales circa 1284 and Map of Wales circa 1399 clearly showing Monmouthshire in Wales without a doubt.

It was named Monmouthshire after the name of the town which stands at the confluence of the Monnow and the Wye. Controlled by a Roman garrison from the 1st century AD to 400; by the Celts until the Norman invasion; then by Breton Lords until 1256, the town, (as opposed to the county,) of Monmouth can track nearly 2,000 years of uninterrupted development and boasts an impressive list of eminent names in its long history.

Monmouth is an abbreviation of Monnow-mouth, Monnow originally deriving from the Welsh Myn-wy (myn - swift, wy - water), thus combining both English and Welsh elements. (The Monnow bridge is pictured above.)
The Welsh name for the county is Sir Fynwy, (Sir, pronounced "Seer", is Welsh for county and Fynwy is a soft mutation of Mynwy).

From the Hale family site:

ENGLAND OR WALES ?


There has long been a dispute about whether Monmouthshire was actually in Wales or in England.
But the majority of people who lived there were in no doubt about where their allegiance lay - with Wales, despite the fact that during the nineteenth century there was a tremendous influx of English migrants who came to work in the mines and iron works which sprang up in the upper reaches of the valleys.

Most of the original inhabitants then were Welsh speaking and proud of their Welsh heritage. After only a few generations most of the English speaking immigrants came to regard themselves as being Welsh too.

1) William Shakespeare, writing in 1599 - after the Act of Union, had no doubt that Monmouth was in Wales. In a scene in Henry V before the Battle of Agincourt there is the following dualogue:
(Fluellen) "....and I do believe, your majesty takes no scorn to wear the leek upon St Tavy's day.
(King Henry) I wear it for a memorable honour; For I am Welsh, you know, good countryman." Henry, as we have seen, was born in Monmouth

2) In 1549 Edward VI granted a Charter to Monmouth which was described as being "in the Marches of Wales". The following writers describe Monmouthshire as being in Wales: Humphrey Llwyd (History of Cambria 1568); Churchyard (Worthiness of Wales 1587); Drayton (Polyolbion 1613); Enderbie (1666); and Doddridge (Historical Account of the Prince of Wales 1714.) In the reign of James I (1603-25), Camden and John Jones of Gelli Llyfdy wrote of "..the thirteen counties of Wales" and evidently included Monmouthshire in Wales.

3) Until the Industrial Revolution the dominant language in the county was Welsh. For instance, in 1815 half the inhabitants of Blaenafon could speak no English at all. By 1841 61% of the population of the town were still speaking Welsh, although the vast majority were bilingual by then, and even in the middle 1890s over 60% of the population in the western valleys were speaking Welsh.

4) Laws which were peculiar to Wales and which did not apply in England always included Monmouthshire, e.g.
a) Acts of Parliament referring to Welsh education such as the Welsh
Intermediate Education Act of 1889 included Monmouthshire in their provisions.


b) The Licensing Act enforcing Sunday closing applied to Monmouthshire
along with the rest of Wales, but did not apply to England.


c) Monmouthshire was included in the Welsh Cemeteries Act 1908

5) The Church of Wales came into being in 1920, when the disestablished church severed its links with Canterbury, and the Diocese of Monmouth was created in 1921 as part of that church.

6) In sport Monmouthshire players have always been eligible to play for Wales, but not for England. (Try telling the famous Pontypool front row of Graham Price, Bobby Windsor and Charlie Faulkner that they should have played for England !!!!!)


CONCLUSION
So, to sum up :

The County of Monmouthshire has always had exactly the same status as any other Welsh county, i.e it has always been in Wales.

For the purpose of legal administrative convenience only, Monmouthshire was appended to the English counties, which gave rise to the belief by some that it was "in England". Those who persist in maintaining that Monmouthshire was, and still should be, in England should ask themselves the question : "WHEN, and WHY was Monmouthshire created?"

And a final thought. Present day Monmouthshire was once a small part of Gwent, which was formerly called Monmouthshire, part of which was originally called - GWENT

For those just looking at 1972 they have a blinkered view of the situation and see what they want to see and miss the true facts.

There`s no doubt from my research that Monmouthshire has been in Wales for hundreds of years. Now if you want to examine all border counties and send them back to their original country there will be more coming back to Wales and nothing going to England.


Welsh Bicknor (Welsh: Llangystennin Garth Brenni) is an area of Herefordshire. It was historically a detached parish (exclave) of the traditional county of Monmouthshire.

The manor house and surrounding land of Welsh Bicknor were seized from Richard Vaughan in 1651 because he was a Catholic and given to Phillip Nicholas of Llansoy, in Monmouthshire. This is how the rather unusual situation of the exclave occurred.

It has been deemed to be part of Herefordshire since the Counties (Detached Parts) Act 1844.

As its name suggests, Welsh Bicknor has close ties with Wales, being a detached parish of Monmouthshire, although adjacent to English Bicknor and Lydbrook, which are part of Gloucestershire.

The Manor House of Welsh Bicknor, known as Courtfield, belonged originally to the Vaughan family. However, in 1651 Richard Vaughan, who was a Catholic, had his land sequested and given to Phillip Nicholas of Llansoy, in Monmouthshire.

Religious dissension within the Vaughan families continued for several generations. In 1715, a John Vaughan (presumably one of Richard's descendants) refused the oath of allegiance to George I. He had estates in the several counties of Monmouthshire, Radnorshire, Herefordshire, and Gloucestershire valued at £1,000 per annum. In 1719 he was fined for not attending church.

A later generation, in the person of Richard Vaughan, joined Prince Charles Edward Stuart's army in 1745. Vaughan took part in the battle of Culloden and followed the Prince into exile. He and his brother William Vaughan were outlawed and their property seized, while they themselves fled to Spain and became officers in the army of that country. Both married Spanish Ladies and some of their descendants settled in the home of their adoption and became grandees of Spain.

Richard Vaughan died in Barcelona in 1795 but his son William eventually returned to Wales and obtained a restoration of the main portion of his estates, as heir to his uncle. Finally, John Vaughan of Courtfield, elder brother of William took the oath of allegiance to King George III at Monmouth in 1778.

Welsh Bicknor parish records are now held by Hereford Records Office.

Whats all this rubbish about moving back to (it makes me ill typing this word) England, we were never there in the first place, this is Wales always has been always will be, we are on the correct (welsh) side of Offa's dyke the historical border between Wales and (here we go again) England. CYMRU AM BYTH

Typical the English up to there old tricks.Arrogant as ever only they exist and no one else.I am Welsh and proud of it hands off our country.Get back over that bridge to where you belong.Wales,Wales,Wales.Cymru forever.

The EDP are a bunch of eccentric lunatics, who are doing this solely as a publicity stunt. They will get a handful of votes from English incomers but will otherwise be humiliated. Ignore them - they will soon go away

Don't worry about the EDP they'll only split the Tory, BNP, UKIP vote another way.
Notice how the EDP are claiming Monmouthshire with the most tenuous of claims yet mention Cornwall and they go blue in the face with rage. Oh yes constitutionally as a duchy Cornwall is not and never has been a part of the country of England but the EDP choose to ignore this because it does not suit their "for the glory and grandeur of England" imperialistic attitude.

Oll an gwella

no need to take this seriously the ED's wont get many votes = no assembly member's + no refferendum. the most worrying thing about this is that the ED's seem to take themselves seriously!

Support Monmouthshire - Join the Protest ......

Don`t let them make you ENGLISH overnight ...

Nothing wrong with the English but the English Democrats should be in England campaigning for an English parliament
NOT in WALES trying to steal a piece of our country ......

The English Democrats are campaigning to take Monmouthshire from Wales ......
Join the protest .. In parts of S E Wales Election leaflets are being delivered from the English Democrats .



Send the leaflets back to them .. SAVE MONEY .. don`t put a stamp on the envelope ......



English Democrat Election leaflets to:



EDP

Quires Green

Willinggale

Essex

CM5 0QP

or



English Democrats Party

PO Box 1066,

Norwich

NR14 6ZJ



Send them packing back to England .... Show you care for Wales / Cymru

The English Democrats excuse for standing in Wales is:

The Nationality of Monmouthshire has been a matter of debate since 1284.
In 1960’s the then Labour and Conservative governments conspired to put Monmouthshire into Wales, partly to dilute the growing Welsh Nationalism in Wales generally.

****! Before the Acts of Union of 1536 Monmouthshire did not have the right to send MPs to Westminster, because it wasn't considered to be a part of England. After 1536 it is true to say that Monmouthshire was annexed into England, but so were Caernarfonshire, Merioneth and Carmarthenshire. However every law relating to Wales alone since 1536, the first of which was the order to translate the Bible into Welsh, has included Monmouthshire as part of Wales.

The real reason why ED is standing in Wales is in order to spite Plaid Cymru for a snub. In 2004, Elfyn Llwyd, the Parliamentary leader of Plaid Cymru, was invited to address the ED conference and to discus a joint ED / PC / SNP campaign for the 2005 election. Elfyn refused the offer because of ED's attitude to Europe. Plaid and the SNP are both favourable to the EU; the English Democrats are opposed to the institution.

My personal opinion is that Elfyn made a mistake in refusing the invitation. A strong English nationalist party would be advantageous to the cause of Welsh, Scottish and Cornish nationalism. English nationalist's attitudes towards Europe are a matter for English nationalists to decide - that is what independence is all about - the rights of free nations to follow their own course.

The ED's decision to spite Plaid by standing in Wales is an even bigger mistake. It has added an unnecessary enmity between Welsh and English Nationalists and it is a huge waste of resources.

As a Welsh Nationalist of part English descent I want the English Democrats to have electoral success in England. The ED is likely to lose up to £11k in lost deposits from their pathetic stunt of standing in Monmouthshire. That £11k and the time and effort of their Welsh candidates could have been used to get a foot in the door by securing the election of a couple of councillors in the English Local Government elections being held on the same day as the Assembly elections; a much more positive way of using party funds and of supporting the cause than wasting resources on creating un-needed animosity between Welsh and English nationalists.

Name: Steven Uncles
Username: English Democrat
Email: Steven.Uncles@EngDem.org
Location: Dartford, Kent; ENGLAND
Occupation: Consultancy, Sales & Marketing
Interests: Rugby, F1 Motor Racing, Politics, England,

From another site - proof that Steven Uncles posts under different names ..

: Name: Steven Uncles
: Username: Kentishman
: Email: Steven.Uncles@EngDem.org
: Location: Dartford, Kent; ENGLAND
: Occupation: Consultancy, Sales & Marketing
: Interests: Rugby, F1 Motor Racing, Politics, England,

: From another site - proof that Steven Uncles posts under different names ..

How many names has he used on this site ??

Hummm - Liars & deceiving people, should make a good politicians then, not to be trusted ..

: The English Democrats claims that Monmouthshire should be in England has been blown out of the water....

: A map has been found showing the British Isles in the year 802 ..

: Not only is Monmouthshire clearly in Wales but Cornwall was showing as West Wales ..

: Jimmy Mckenzie who has run the "Monmouthshire is Welsh" campaign is clearly delighted at the news that everyone suspected anyway ..

: " Now maybe the English Democrats will concentrate on their English Parliament Campaign and leave Wales intact" says Mr Mckenzie ..

: Compelling proof Monmouthshire has been in Wales since year 802 ..

: The English Democrats have scored an "own goal" the map has surfaced on a site run by one of their supporters: Dave White who posts as White43 on the St george blog site.

: http://www.white431.adsl24.co.uk/history.htm

: http://www.white431.adsl24.co......es_802.jpg

:
: Same map on the map archive site:

:
: http://www.maparchive.org/deta.....d7aac995fc

: And

: http://www.maparchive.org/deta.....d7aac995fc

So there you have it, more votes for Plaid Cymru in "English" Monmouthshire than for the ED's. Give it up boys, go back to Essex and don't waste any more of your meagre funds trying to muscle in on our elections again. I've read some of the blogs with links to your website and they would have made Hitler proud, you are racist, anti-everything colnel Blimps. Bye Bye !!!!

Blundell, Mike ............Eng Dem 429 (2.16%)
Constantine, Andrew....Eng Dem 634 (2.68%)
Abrams, Ed..................Eng Dem 804 (2.72%)

Beany, Captain.........Bean 840 (4.09%)

Says it all ....

Well done S E Wales

: Blundell, Mike ............Eng Dem 429 (2.16%)
: Constantine, Andrew....Eng Dem 634 (2.68%)
: Abrams, Ed..................Eng Dem 804 (2.72%)

: Beany, Captain..........Bean Party 840 (4.09%)

: CAPTAIN BEANY POLLED MORE VOTES

: English Democrats Party had 0.82% on the regional list - less than 1%,

: The English Democrats Party polled 0.82% on the regional list and looking at it another way 91.8% didn`t support the English Democrats Party, thats almost all of them.


:
: Says it all ....

:
: A lot of work, campaigning and money is required inside England's boundaries so whats the point of wasting time & money outside ??