Opposition group calls for special audit at Caerphilly council

South Wales Argus: (3085763) (3085763)

THE opposition Plaid Cymru group in Caerphilly Council has called on watchdogs to carry out a special audit to ensure no other decisions were taken by the authority’s officers without the knowledge of councillors.

The appeal was made to Anthony Barrett of the Wales Audit Office, whose Public Interest report last week revealed some council officers pushed through an essential car and annual allowances deal without it ever being presented to councillors - a decision the report deemed was unlawful.

It followed a previous report on the senior officers’ pay scandal which again said the way pay had been awarded was unlawful.

In a letter to Mr Barrett this week, Cllr Colin Mann, leader of the Plaid Cymru group, said he was concerned elected members did not know what was happening regarding the holiday and car allowances, and highlighted the fact that no notes were taken at one meeting as a particular point of concerm.

“The decision on allowances was then pushed through the system literally just before the council elections last year, when elected members were possibly distracted campaigning for the election," he added.

Cllr Mann said that "due to the series of issues that have now been exposed" he and his colleagues had a "great lack of confidence" in the way the affairs of the authority had been conducted.

A Caerphilly Labour party spokesman said: “We have already called for a review so we are glad Plaid Cymru is finally catching up.

“From our point of view, we too were unhappy with the decisions made, but we think those unlawful acts in making those allowances only happened as a result of the lackadaisical approach of the Plaid Cymru administration prior to May 2012."

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9:48am Fri 27 Dec 13

Woodgnome says...

Mann may be making political capital, but he's right about a special audit. This authority is out of control.
Mann may be making political capital, but he's right about a special audit. This authority is out of control. Woodgnome

9:20am Sat 28 Dec 13

varteg1 says...

I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening
all over Wales.

In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector.

We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises..

B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.
I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening all over Wales. In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector. We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises.. B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board. varteg1

12:47pm Sat 28 Dec 13

Woodgnome says...

varteg1 wrote:
I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening
all over Wales.

In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector.

We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises..

B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.
Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control.
[quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening all over Wales. In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector. We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises.. B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.[/p][/quote]Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control. Woodgnome

8:27pm Sat 28 Dec 13

varteg1 says...

Woodgnome wrote:
varteg1 wrote:
I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening
all over Wales.

In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector.

We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises..

B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.
Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control.
Where did I blame the 'employees?

Like all employees they will take advantage of whatever they can get a grip on. from stealing a handful of nails, a few paperclips, an eraser, or at the other end of the scale, a Rolls Royce if it's hanging about unsupervised.

My concern is that the 'established officer empire builders have been facilitated by this idiotic mentality they should be employed as though they were in a competitive industrial environment where profit comes above all else.

This is a feature given credence by government as it has sought to structure budgetary necessity where competent management is all that is required.,
Ever since this absolutely destructive element has been injected into local matters, strict budgetary controls have perished to almost non existence, as the top officials have brow beaten elected Councillors in their demand across the board from how a community should be run, to how much pay they think they are worth and expect to be paid.

Of course this only applies to the so called professional executive element. You don;'t hear of carpenters or plumbers having much influence, especially, as in most boroughs these days, they are being farmed out to associated but unnecessarily construct ed firms that have been formulated to give the appearance they are bringing competition down at street level.
We ate not talking 'employees' per se, we are talking a massive rise in empire building tax skimmers.known as 'essential' bureaucratic executives. The vast majority of whom are an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer.
[quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening all over Wales. In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector. We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises.. B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.[/p][/quote]Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control.[/p][/quote]Where did I blame the 'employees? Like all employees they will take advantage of whatever they can get a grip on. from stealing a handful of nails, a few paperclips, an eraser, or at the other end of the scale, a Rolls Royce if it's hanging about unsupervised. My concern is that the 'established officer empire builders have been facilitated by this idiotic mentality they should be employed as though they were in a competitive industrial environment where profit comes above all else. This is a feature given credence by government as it has sought to structure budgetary necessity where competent management is all that is required., Ever since this absolutely destructive element has been injected into local matters, strict budgetary controls have perished to almost non existence, as the top officials have brow beaten elected Councillors in their demand across the board from how a community should be run, to how much pay they think they are worth and expect to be paid. Of course this only applies to the so called professional executive element. You don;'t hear of carpenters or plumbers having much influence, especially, as in most boroughs these days, they are being farmed out to associated but unnecessarily construct ed firms that have been formulated to give the appearance they are bringing competition down at street level. We ate not talking 'employees' per se, we are talking a massive rise in empire building tax skimmers.known as 'essential' bureaucratic executives. The vast majority of whom are an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer. varteg1

11:05am Sun 29 Dec 13

welshmen says...

Woodgnome wrote:
Mann may be making political capital, but he's right about a special audit. This authority is out of control.
How about the European Union, haven't had an audit by independent accountants for ten years, Billions of ££££££ unaccounted for and we pay £43 Million + a WEEK....
[quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: Mann may be making political capital, but he's right about a special audit. This authority is out of control.[/p][/quote]How about the European Union, haven't had an audit by independent accountants for ten years, Billions of ££££££ unaccounted for and we pay £43 Million + a WEEK.... welshmen

5:42pm Sun 29 Dec 13

Woodgnome says...

varteg1 wrote:
Woodgnome wrote:
varteg1 wrote:
I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening
all over Wales.

In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector.

We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises..

B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.
Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control.
Where did I blame the 'employees?

Like all employees they will take advantage of whatever they can get a grip on. from stealing a handful of nails, a few paperclips, an eraser, or at the other end of the scale, a Rolls Royce if it's hanging about unsupervised.

My concern is that the 'established officer empire builders have been facilitated by this idiotic mentality they should be employed as though they were in a competitive industrial environment where profit comes above all else.

This is a feature given credence by government as it has sought to structure budgetary necessity where competent management is all that is required.,
Ever since this absolutely destructive element has been injected into local matters, strict budgetary controls have perished to almost non existence, as the top officials have brow beaten elected Councillors in their demand across the board from how a community should be run, to how much pay they think they are worth and expect to be paid.

Of course this only applies to the so called professional executive element. You don;'t hear of carpenters or plumbers having much influence, especially, as in most boroughs these days, they are being farmed out to associated but unnecessarily construct ed firms that have been formulated to give the appearance they are bringing competition down at street level.
We ate not talking 'employees' per se, we are talking a massive rise in empire building tax skimmers.known as 'essential' bureaucratic executives. The vast majority of whom are an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer.
"Officials" are employees.
[quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening all over Wales. In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector. We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises.. B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.[/p][/quote]Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control.[/p][/quote]Where did I blame the 'employees? Like all employees they will take advantage of whatever they can get a grip on. from stealing a handful of nails, a few paperclips, an eraser, or at the other end of the scale, a Rolls Royce if it's hanging about unsupervised. My concern is that the 'established officer empire builders have been facilitated by this idiotic mentality they should be employed as though they were in a competitive industrial environment where profit comes above all else. This is a feature given credence by government as it has sought to structure budgetary necessity where competent management is all that is required., Ever since this absolutely destructive element has been injected into local matters, strict budgetary controls have perished to almost non existence, as the top officials have brow beaten elected Councillors in their demand across the board from how a community should be run, to how much pay they think they are worth and expect to be paid. Of course this only applies to the so called professional executive element. You don;'t hear of carpenters or plumbers having much influence, especially, as in most boroughs these days, they are being farmed out to associated but unnecessarily construct ed firms that have been formulated to give the appearance they are bringing competition down at street level. We ate not talking 'employees' per se, we are talking a massive rise in empire building tax skimmers.known as 'essential' bureaucratic executives. The vast majority of whom are an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer.[/p][/quote]"Officials" are employees. Woodgnome

8:14pm Sun 29 Dec 13

varteg1 says...

welshmen wrote:
Woodgnome wrote:
Mann may be making political capital, but he's right about a special audit. This authority is out of control.
How about the European Union, haven't had an audit by independent accountants for ten years, Billions of ££££££ unaccounted for and we pay £43 Million + a WEEK....
Not in my sights, I am very much more concerned about what happens here

However, this is an oldie often trotted out to make some sort of comparison.

The EU does get vetted,... daily, I suggest you do a bit more research,. listening to Farage and his half baked followers will get you nowhere.

The auditing of the EU, bears no comparison to that of a local Council, which operates fiscally on a totally different and diverse method of accounting.
A Council has to be annually audited, the EU, as stated, works to a different agenda. Go check.
[quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: Mann may be making political capital, but he's right about a special audit. This authority is out of control.[/p][/quote]How about the European Union, haven't had an audit by independent accountants for ten years, Billions of ££££££ unaccounted for and we pay £43 Million + a WEEK....[/p][/quote]Not in my sights, I am very much more concerned about what happens here However, this is an oldie often trotted out to make some sort of comparison. The EU does get vetted,... daily, I suggest you do a bit more research,. listening to Farage and his half baked followers will get you nowhere. The auditing of the EU, bears no comparison to that of a local Council, which operates fiscally on a totally different and diverse method of accounting. A Council has to be annually audited, the EU, as stated, works to a different agenda. Go check. varteg1

9:36am Mon 30 Dec 13

varteg1 says...

Woodgnome wrote:
varteg1 wrote:
Woodgnome wrote:
varteg1 wrote:
I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening
all over Wales.

In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector.

We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises..

B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.
Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control.
Where did I blame the 'employees?

Like all employees they will take advantage of whatever they can get a grip on. from stealing a handful of nails, a few paperclips, an eraser, or at the other end of the scale, a Rolls Royce if it's hanging about unsupervised.

My concern is that the 'established officer empire builders have been facilitated by this idiotic mentality they should be employed as though they were in a competitive industrial environment where profit comes above all else.

This is a feature given credence by government as it has sought to structure budgetary necessity where competent management is all that is required.,
Ever since this absolutely destructive element has been injected into local matters, strict budgetary controls have perished to almost non existence, as the top officials have brow beaten elected Councillors in their demand across the board from how a community should be run, to how much pay they think they are worth and expect to be paid.

Of course this only applies to the so called professional executive element. You don;'t hear of carpenters or plumbers having much influence, especially, as in most boroughs these days, they are being farmed out to associated but unnecessarily construct ed firms that have been formulated to give the appearance they are bringing competition down at street level.
We ate not talking 'employees' per se, we are talking a massive rise in empire building tax skimmers.known as 'essential' bureaucratic executives. The vast majority of whom are an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer.
"Officials" are employees.
Not so, they are invariably 'appointees', a vast gulf of difference between those and the personnel actually employed to do the vital and necessary work to keep the community viable.

Employees are those who have sought their job,.and obtained it because their skills have been necessary for the well being of the community that the Council is responsible to, not been, as is often the case, head hunted, poached even, from official or commercial environments where their 'talents' are in demand, but not what they are supposed to be capable of doing, more to empire build as the establishment grows, as it has done over the last few decades, exponentially, to the cost of the taxpaying public.
[quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Woodgnome[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: I suggest it's a great deal to do with the decades long pressures from the nationalists that has resulted in a loss of oversight in Wales of what is happening in the various councils that can be thanked for what is happening all over Wales. In all my life I never heard of such problems, it all seems to have come about since council officials suddenly became elevated to almost divine status, and became remunerated for their mundane jobs at comparative pay levels ans structures to the 'private' commercial sector. We do not need other than competent personnel , there is absolutely no necessity to employ on terms equal to business, councils are management no competitive commercial enterprises.. B ut ever since it became fashionable to see them as such it is no wonder we get commercial corrupt practices coming on board.[/p][/quote]Hang on. If the politicians are too weak to control the authority they shouldn't stand for election or be chucked off at the next one. Blaming the employees is an old chestnut. The buck stops fairly and squarely with the elected Councillors for failing to exercise control.[/p][/quote]Where did I blame the 'employees? Like all employees they will take advantage of whatever they can get a grip on. from stealing a handful of nails, a few paperclips, an eraser, or at the other end of the scale, a Rolls Royce if it's hanging about unsupervised. My concern is that the 'established officer empire builders have been facilitated by this idiotic mentality they should be employed as though they were in a competitive industrial environment where profit comes above all else. This is a feature given credence by government as it has sought to structure budgetary necessity where competent management is all that is required., Ever since this absolutely destructive element has been injected into local matters, strict budgetary controls have perished to almost non existence, as the top officials have brow beaten elected Councillors in their demand across the board from how a community should be run, to how much pay they think they are worth and expect to be paid. Of course this only applies to the so called professional executive element. You don;'t hear of carpenters or plumbers having much influence, especially, as in most boroughs these days, they are being farmed out to associated but unnecessarily construct ed firms that have been formulated to give the appearance they are bringing competition down at street level. We ate not talking 'employees' per se, we are talking a massive rise in empire building tax skimmers.known as 'essential' bureaucratic executives. The vast majority of whom are an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer.[/p][/quote]"Officials" are employees.[/p][/quote]Not so, they are invariably 'appointees', a vast gulf of difference between those and the personnel actually employed to do the vital and necessary work to keep the community viable. Employees are those who have sought their job,.and obtained it because their skills have been necessary for the well being of the community that the Council is responsible to, not been, as is often the case, head hunted, poached even, from official or commercial environments where their 'talents' are in demand, but not what they are supposed to be capable of doing, more to empire build as the establishment grows, as it has done over the last few decades, exponentially, to the cost of the taxpaying public. varteg1

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