LiveNewport woman arrested on suspicion of attempted murder of two children

First published in Gwent news
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Summary

  • Children and woman all 'stable'
  • 7-year-old boy and a 16 month old baby girl injured
  • Both taken to Royal Gwent Hospital
  • Knife found at scene
  • Neighbours tell of 'two little children wrapped in blankets' taken away in ambulances
  • Police ask anyone with info to call 101 quoting log number 74 07/05/14

6:04pm

A spokesman for Gwent Police said the two children injured today after suffering knife wounds remain in a stable condition at the Royal Gwent Hospital.

The 27-year-old woman who suffered knife wounds and was arrested on suspicion of attempted murder is no longer in hospital but continues to receive treatment at "an appropriate facility".

Officers involved in the investigation will speak with her as soon as her health permits.

2:55pm

Police at the scene on Salisbury Close this afternoon. Pics: Mike Lewis

South Wales Argus:

 

South Wales Argus:

 

South Wales Argus:

1:50pm

Gwent Police statement Superintendent Mark Warrender today.

1:02pm

1:02pm

1:01pm

Argus reporter Keiligh is at Newport Central Police station where  Superintendent Mark Warrender spoke to the media:

 

 

12:55pm

Gwent Police say the two children and the woman suffered knife wounds and are in a stable condition.

12:47pm

Pics: Sophie Brownson

South Wales Argus:

Police cordon on Salisbury Close:

South Wales Argus:

12:41pm

SCENE: Police on Salisbury Close this afternoon. Pics: Sophie Brownson

South Wales Argus:

South Wales Argus:

South Wales Argus:

11:19am

A Welsh Ambulance Service spokesperson said: “We were called at 7.54am today, Wednesday May 7, to an address on Salisbury Close, Newport.

Two rapid response vehicles, two emergency ambulances and an Advanced Paramedic Practitioner attended, and a seven-year-old boy and a 16-month-old girl were taken to the Royal Gwent Hospital in Newport.”

10:49am

SCENE: Salisbury close in the Shaftesbury area of Newport

South Wales Argus:

10:43am

South Wales Argus:

A resident said she saw "two little children wrapped in blankets" being taken away in separate ambulances.

Maureen Harrhy, 65, lives on Tetbury Close, which is attached to Salisbury Close where the incident is believed to have taken place.

She added "a girl coming out with an orange dressing gown being led into the back of a police car with her hands behind her back."

She said: "We were all upset here because I saw.

"There was police everywhere."

10:16am

Scene of the incident:

10:15am

A woman living nearby, who did not wish to be named, said that at around 7.30am several police cars turned up, with ambulances.

“They led a young woman out who was handcuffed and put her in the back of a car. Then more police arrived,” she said.

“Then they carried out a young child and put them in the back of an ambulance, and although I didn’t see it, I was told another child was put in another ambulance.

“I heard an ambulance driver on his radio and he seemed quite frantic, and the ambulances had a police escort in front and behind as they went off to hospital.

“It’s shocking and very upsetting, especially to see child being carried out like that.”

10:13am

A 27-YEAR-OLD Newport woman has been arrested on suspicion of the attempted murder of two children in the Shaftesbury area of Newport this morning.

Police were called to Salisbury Close at around 8am after ambulance crews said that two children, a 16 month old baby girl and a 7-year-old boy were injured. They were both taken to the Royal Gwent Hospital.

A knife has been recovered from the scene.

The woman has also been taken to the Royal Gwent Hospital where she is receiving treatment for injuries.

Police say they are not looking for anyone else in connection with the incident at this time.

Comments (26)

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11:03am Wed 7 May 14

Allylou says...

Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse
Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse Allylou
  • Score: -6

11:07am Wed 7 May 14

kim horsfield says...

prey that the children are going to be ok this is awful news.
prey that the children are going to be ok this is awful news. kim horsfield
  • Score: 27

11:17am Wed 7 May 14

varteg1 says...

Allylou wrote:
Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse
You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster.

Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences.
[quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse[/p][/quote]You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster. Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences. varteg1
  • Score: 70

12:11pm Wed 7 May 14

Allylou says...

varteg1 wrote:
Allylou wrote:
Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse
You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster.

Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences.
I will be "damned quick to judge" but I will explain my reasoning.
If it were a man with an unsound mind who had committed this heinous crime society as whole would view this very different. Depression and mental illness is a tragedy in itself and needs a hell of a lot more attention and support but it is in no way a justification or a pass for attempted murder which is what this is.
Everyone regardless of age has the right to feel safe and not have their lives intentionally taken. This is not me judging someone who has lost their temper with their children in the supermarket, this is serious.
Whatever the state of mind of the woman, weather she is is sick by nature (as unfortunately some people are) or genuinely sick through circumstance, those children are the victim not her.
There is no illness, no excuse, no reason or circumstance that can justify this.
If she is ill I hope she gets help, but she still deserves punishment and to never have the opportunity to hurt those children or any other child again.
[quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse[/p][/quote]You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster. Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences.[/p][/quote]I will be "damned quick to judge" but I will explain my reasoning. If it were a man with an unsound mind who had committed this heinous crime society as whole would view this very different. Depression and mental illness is a tragedy in itself and needs a hell of a lot more attention and support but it is in no way a justification or a pass for attempted murder which is what this is. Everyone regardless of age has the right to feel safe and not have their lives intentionally taken. This is not me judging someone who has lost their temper with their children in the supermarket, this is serious. Whatever the state of mind of the woman, weather she is is sick by nature (as unfortunately some people are) or genuinely sick through circumstance, those children are the victim not her. There is no illness, no excuse, no reason or circumstance that can justify this. If she is ill I hope she gets help, but she still deserves punishment and to never have the opportunity to hurt those children or any other child again. Allylou
  • Score: 37

12:12pm Wed 7 May 14

Dugstar says...

The two ambulance flew past me as I was heading into work this morning. Hope the 2 children are ok. It's only 2 mins from where I work too.
The two ambulance flew past me as I was heading into work this morning. Hope the 2 children are ok. It's only 2 mins from where I work too. Dugstar
  • Score: 2

12:17pm Wed 7 May 14

Nicbou says...

Allylou wrote:
Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse
Yes these poor babies, I totally agree. I hope they have a network of family to love and cherish and give them all the support they need to deal with this tragic event. But do not condemn the mother until we know all the facts. We are all to ready to attack her but we do not know her circumstances. I'm truly not condoning what she has done to these young children but lets not jump to any conclusions. Our thoughts and prayers should be with the children.
[quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse[/p][/quote]Yes these poor babies, I totally agree. I hope they have a network of family to love and cherish and give them all the support they need to deal with this tragic event. But do not condemn the mother until we know all the facts. We are all to ready to attack her but we do not know her circumstances. I'm truly not condoning what she has done to these young children but lets not jump to any conclusions. Our thoughts and prayers should be with the children. Nicbou
  • Score: 23

12:28pm Wed 7 May 14

Ultimate Worrier says...

I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not. Ultimate Worrier
  • Score: 27

1:57pm Wed 7 May 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Nicbou wrote:
Allylou wrote:
Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse
Yes these poor babies, I totally agree. I hope they have a network of family to love and cherish and give them all the support they need to deal with this tragic event. But do not condemn the mother until we know all the facts. We are all to ready to attack her but we do not know her circumstances. I'm truly not condoning what she has done to these young children but lets not jump to any conclusions. Our thoughts and prayers should be with the children.
Indeed, I hope the kids are okay. And I agree that people ought to at least wait until the woman in question is actually charged with something before they get their pitchforks out.
[quote][p][bold]Nicbou[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse[/p][/quote]Yes these poor babies, I totally agree. I hope they have a network of family to love and cherish and give them all the support they need to deal with this tragic event. But do not condemn the mother until we know all the facts. We are all to ready to attack her but we do not know her circumstances. I'm truly not condoning what she has done to these young children but lets not jump to any conclusions. Our thoughts and prayers should be with the children.[/p][/quote]Indeed, I hope the kids are okay. And I agree that people ought to at least wait until the woman in question is actually charged with something before they get their pitchforks out. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: 8

2:22pm Wed 7 May 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Unfortunately.
That is why this Country is in the state it is in.
Do-gooders and politically correct human rights warriors always see it differently from the rest of the population.
That is why they would probably support the right of a person given thirteen life sentences to be free to walk out of an open prison.
And I thought that the definition of a prison was a place of incarceration.
You couldn't make it up.
Hoping that the children make a swift recovery from this terrible ordeal.
[quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Unfortunately. That is why this Country is in the state it is in. Do-gooders and politically correct human rights warriors always see it differently from the rest of the population. That is why they would probably support the right of a person given thirteen life sentences to be free to walk out of an open prison. And I thought that the definition of a prison was a place of incarceration. You couldn't make it up. Hoping that the children make a swift recovery from this terrible ordeal. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 9

2:35pm Wed 7 May 14

Jimport says...

Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust
.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
[quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues. Jimport
  • Score: 12

2:46pm Wed 7 May 14

Ultimate Worrier says...

Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust

.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
[quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society. Ultimate Worrier
  • Score: -1

2:51pm Wed 7 May 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust


.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community.
All comes down to cost at the end of the day.
Money is more important than lives in todays society.
[quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community. All comes down to cost at the end of the day. Money is more important than lives in todays society. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 13

3:15pm Wed 7 May 14

Jimport says...

Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust


.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
It is no comfort, there is no comfort for anyone in this scenario. There was no comfort for Mrs Zito. Life isn't that black-and-white, and as frustrating as that definitely is, you can't make it otherwise by pretending.

But punishment means being actively made to suffer for an action you are responsible for due to your own failings. What if a dementia sufferer punches their nurse in the face - should the patient be made to suffer as punishment?

If you're saying that the state should have the power to keep people in medically-run institutions where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others then that is different to simply punishing them, and I'm sure nearly everyone would agree with you.
[quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]It is no comfort, there is no comfort for anyone in this scenario. There was no comfort for Mrs Zito. Life isn't that black-and-white, and as frustrating as that definitely is, you can't make it otherwise by pretending. But punishment means being actively made to suffer for an action you are responsible for due to your own failings. What if a dementia sufferer punches their nurse in the face - should the patient be made to suffer as punishment? If you're saying that the state should have the power to keep people in medically-run institutions where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others then that is different to simply punishing them, and I'm sure nearly everyone would agree with you. Jimport
  • Score: 0

3:38pm Wed 7 May 14

Sineadsmam says...

I suffer from mental Health issues, mainly depression (due to being raped in Newport Town, and the monster never being caught in 1995) and I have 3 children. I have really bad days on occasions but I know it is wrong and I never would even consider hurting my children! Mental health issues is an illness but trying to kill your children isn't! That is just pure EVIL!
I suffer from mental Health issues, mainly depression (due to being raped in Newport Town, and the monster never being caught in 1995) and I have 3 children. I have really bad days on occasions but I know it is wrong and I never would even consider hurting my children! Mental health issues is an illness but trying to kill your children isn't! That is just pure EVIL! Sineadsmam
  • Score: 17

4:10pm Wed 7 May 14

Ultimate Worrier says...

Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust



.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
It is no comfort, there is no comfort for anyone in this scenario. There was no comfort for Mrs Zito. Life isn't that black-and-white, and as frustrating as that definitely is, you can't make it otherwise by pretending.

But punishment means being actively made to suffer for an action you are responsible for due to your own failings. What if a dementia sufferer punches their nurse in the face - should the patient be made to suffer as punishment?

If you're saying that the state should have the power to keep people in medically-run institutions where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others then that is different to simply punishing them, and I'm sure nearly everyone would agree with you.
If the alternative is releasing mentally ill people back into the community then, yes, they should be locked in prisons instead. Quite clearly, multiple murderers suffer from some sort of mental health problem as their behaviour is not normal, yet they are incarcerated with little prospect of release. What is the difference? A murderer is a murderer; I don't want to share my community with them and neither should I have to.
[quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]It is no comfort, there is no comfort for anyone in this scenario. There was no comfort for Mrs Zito. Life isn't that black-and-white, and as frustrating as that definitely is, you can't make it otherwise by pretending. But punishment means being actively made to suffer for an action you are responsible for due to your own failings. What if a dementia sufferer punches their nurse in the face - should the patient be made to suffer as punishment? If you're saying that the state should have the power to keep people in medically-run institutions where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others then that is different to simply punishing them, and I'm sure nearly everyone would agree with you.[/p][/quote]If the alternative is releasing mentally ill people back into the community then, yes, they should be locked in prisons instead. Quite clearly, multiple murderers suffer from some sort of mental health problem as their behaviour is not normal, yet they are incarcerated with little prospect of release. What is the difference? A murderer is a murderer; I don't want to share my community with them and neither should I have to. Ultimate Worrier
  • Score: 1

4:48pm Wed 7 May 14

Jimport says...

Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust




.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
It is no comfort, there is no comfort for anyone in this scenario. There was no comfort for Mrs Zito. Life isn't that black-and-white, and as frustrating as that definitely is, you can't make it otherwise by pretending.

But punishment means being actively made to suffer for an action you are responsible for due to your own failings. What if a dementia sufferer punches their nurse in the face - should the patient be made to suffer as punishment?

If you're saying that the state should have the power to keep people in medically-run institutions where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others then that is different to simply punishing them, and I'm sure nearly everyone would agree with you.
If the alternative is releasing mentally ill people back into the community then, yes, they should be locked in prisons instead. Quite clearly, multiple murderers suffer from some sort of mental health problem as their behaviour is not normal, yet they are incarcerated with little prospect of release. What is the difference? A murderer is a murderer; I don't want to share my community with them and neither should I have to.
That's a totally fair point, and it's fair because you're saying it in terms of protecting the public. That's not the same as punishing the individual, and it's a much better argument than steaming in with a vindictive or angry mind-set.
[quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]It is no comfort, there is no comfort for anyone in this scenario. There was no comfort for Mrs Zito. Life isn't that black-and-white, and as frustrating as that definitely is, you can't make it otherwise by pretending. But punishment means being actively made to suffer for an action you are responsible for due to your own failings. What if a dementia sufferer punches their nurse in the face - should the patient be made to suffer as punishment? If you're saying that the state should have the power to keep people in medically-run institutions where they are no longer a danger to themselves or others then that is different to simply punishing them, and I'm sure nearly everyone would agree with you.[/p][/quote]If the alternative is releasing mentally ill people back into the community then, yes, they should be locked in prisons instead. Quite clearly, multiple murderers suffer from some sort of mental health problem as their behaviour is not normal, yet they are incarcerated with little prospect of release. What is the difference? A murderer is a murderer; I don't want to share my community with them and neither should I have to.[/p][/quote]That's a totally fair point, and it's fair because you're saying it in terms of protecting the public. That's not the same as punishing the individual, and it's a much better argument than steaming in with a vindictive or angry mind-set. Jimport
  • Score: 1

7:36pm Wed 7 May 14

varteg1 says...

Allylou wrote:
varteg1 wrote:
Allylou wrote:
Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse
You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster.

Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences.
I will be "damned quick to judge" but I will explain my reasoning.
If it were a man with an unsound mind who had committed this heinous crime society as whole would view this very different. Depression and mental illness is a tragedy in itself and needs a hell of a lot more attention and support but it is in no way a justification or a pass for attempted murder which is what this is.
Everyone regardless of age has the right to feel safe and not have their lives intentionally taken. This is not me judging someone who has lost their temper with their children in the supermarket, this is serious.
Whatever the state of mind of the woman, weather she is is sick by nature (as unfortunately some people are) or genuinely sick through circumstance, those children are the victim not her.
There is no illness, no excuse, no reason or circumstance that can justify this.
If she is ill I hope she gets help, but she still deserves punishment and to never have the opportunity to hurt those children or any other child again.
It seems a majority agree with my comments, but that aside, the reason a society works, but not all are totally committed to do so it seems, is because we have laws that rein in the unwarranted, and bad decisions by all.

Outside of the social fabric, some do commit what are socially unacceptable acts, often because of personal problems, they are mentally incapable of controlling.

For centuries, as out modern society was evolving, we had vigilante loonies taking the 'law' into their own hands, and unfortunates who did not meet with their strict morality paid the penalty for crossing them. It seems we have yet to root out these 'loonies' from our modern social establishment, as you so ably demonstrate, you have no concept of what it is to show mercy, or to accept the facts that some of us have problems that cannot be resolved by rules the rest of us adhere to and abide by.
There is an old saying, admittedly based in a religious mind set, that I, a rabid atheist cannot find a better phrase to cover...

"There but for the grace of God go I!.....

another religious one being, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Just hope that you do not upset your own apple cart some day for fear of one with your mind set turns it onto you.
[quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse[/p][/quote]You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster. Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences.[/p][/quote]I will be "damned quick to judge" but I will explain my reasoning. If it were a man with an unsound mind who had committed this heinous crime society as whole would view this very different. Depression and mental illness is a tragedy in itself and needs a hell of a lot more attention and support but it is in no way a justification or a pass for attempted murder which is what this is. Everyone regardless of age has the right to feel safe and not have their lives intentionally taken. This is not me judging someone who has lost their temper with their children in the supermarket, this is serious. Whatever the state of mind of the woman, weather she is is sick by nature (as unfortunately some people are) or genuinely sick through circumstance, those children are the victim not her. There is no illness, no excuse, no reason or circumstance that can justify this. If she is ill I hope she gets help, but she still deserves punishment and to never have the opportunity to hurt those children or any other child again.[/p][/quote]It seems a majority agree with my comments, but that aside, the reason a society works, but not all are totally committed to do so it seems, is because we have laws that rein in the unwarranted, and bad decisions by all. Outside of the social fabric, some do commit what are socially unacceptable acts, often because of personal problems, they are mentally incapable of controlling. For centuries, as out modern society was evolving, we had vigilante loonies taking the 'law' into their own hands, and unfortunates who did not meet with their strict morality paid the penalty for crossing them. It seems we have yet to root out these 'loonies' from our modern social establishment, as you so ably demonstrate, you have no concept of what it is to show mercy, or to accept the facts that some of us have problems that cannot be resolved by rules the rest of us adhere to and abide by. There is an old saying, admittedly based in a religious mind set, that I, a rabid atheist cannot find a better phrase to cover... "There but for the grace of God go I!..... another religious one being, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Just hope that you do not upset your own apple cart some day for fear of one with your mind set turns it onto you. varteg1
  • Score: -6

8:18pm Wed 7 May 14

Allylou says...

varteg1 wrote:
Allylou wrote:
varteg1 wrote:
Allylou wrote:
Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse
You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster.

Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences.
I will be "damned quick to judge" but I will explain my reasoning.
If it were a man with an unsound mind who had committed this heinous crime society as whole would view this very different. Depression and mental illness is a tragedy in itself and needs a hell of a lot more attention and support but it is in no way a justification or a pass for attempted murder which is what this is.
Everyone regardless of age has the right to feel safe and not have their lives intentionally taken. This is not me judging someone who has lost their temper with their children in the supermarket, this is serious.
Whatever the state of mind of the woman, weather she is is sick by nature (as unfortunately some people are) or genuinely sick through circumstance, those children are the victim not her.
There is no illness, no excuse, no reason or circumstance that can justify this.
If she is ill I hope she gets help, but she still deserves punishment and to never have the opportunity to hurt those children or any other child again.
It seems a majority agree with my comments, but that aside, the reason a society works, but not all are totally committed to do so it seems, is because we have laws that rein in the unwarranted, and bad decisions by all.

Outside of the social fabric, some do commit what are socially unacceptable acts, often because of personal problems, they are mentally incapable of controlling.

For centuries, as out modern society was evolving, we had vigilante loonies taking the 'law' into their own hands, and unfortunates who did not meet with their strict morality paid the penalty for crossing them. It seems we have yet to root out these 'loonies' from our modern social establishment, as you so ably demonstrate, you have no concept of what it is to show mercy, or to accept the facts that some of us have problems that cannot be resolved by rules the rest of us adhere to and abide by.
There is an old saying, admittedly based in a religious mind set, that I, a rabid atheist cannot find a better phrase to cover...

"There but for the grace of God go I!.....

another religious one being, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Just hope that you do not upset your own apple cart some day for fear of one with your mind set turns it onto you.
Let me get this straight, you challenge me for writing a comment on a situation I don't know the background of, then when I offer my explanation for my original opinion (which in hindsight was in the heat of the moment) you then form an un educated opinion of me by classing me as a vigilante loony? That's a tad ironic.
The murder on Monday- I don't see anyone saying we should hold back opinions as he may have been ill.
It's tragic that those two children will now probably suffer mentally for the rest of their lives for what that woman has done to them, but that's okay as it now gives them a free pass to commit crimes.
Yes the woman probably is ill, as was Beverley Allit the angel of death nurse with munchausen by proxy but what they've both done is wrong and nothing can excuse it.
I have empathy as she, ill or not must have been in a hell of a state to do such an atrocious thing, there is no denying that it is atrocious, she needs help, needs punishment and needs serious rehabilitation before she can be near a child ever again.
I wonder if, god forbid you would be quite so understanding if it were your children recovering in hospital. As that's where my opinions come from, my heart that is full of love for my children. I won't apologise for feeling anger toward anyone who can hurt a child.
I will not judge you as I don't know you and don't know the reasons for your opinions, I will respect them as you have the same right as to them as I do mine, just because they happen to be different does not mean that I am a loony responsible for all that is bad in society.
My thoughts remain with the children for their recovery, now and in the future.
[quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Allylou[/bold] wrote: Poor babies, hope they will be okay and get the love and support they deserve away from that sick monster and hope "it" gets all it deserves and worse[/p][/quote]You may have one thing right, that the woman is actually sick, rather than a monster. Many who take this path are subsequently found to be of unsound mind due to circumstances, so don't be so damned quick to judge, That is for the court to decide, after profound medical and psychiatric investigation has been done to establish her state of mind at the time of the alleged offences.[/p][/quote]I will be "damned quick to judge" but I will explain my reasoning. If it were a man with an unsound mind who had committed this heinous crime society as whole would view this very different. Depression and mental illness is a tragedy in itself and needs a hell of a lot more attention and support but it is in no way a justification or a pass for attempted murder which is what this is. Everyone regardless of age has the right to feel safe and not have their lives intentionally taken. This is not me judging someone who has lost their temper with their children in the supermarket, this is serious. Whatever the state of mind of the woman, weather she is is sick by nature (as unfortunately some people are) or genuinely sick through circumstance, those children are the victim not her. There is no illness, no excuse, no reason or circumstance that can justify this. If she is ill I hope she gets help, but she still deserves punishment and to never have the opportunity to hurt those children or any other child again.[/p][/quote]It seems a majority agree with my comments, but that aside, the reason a society works, but not all are totally committed to do so it seems, is because we have laws that rein in the unwarranted, and bad decisions by all. Outside of the social fabric, some do commit what are socially unacceptable acts, often because of personal problems, they are mentally incapable of controlling. For centuries, as out modern society was evolving, we had vigilante loonies taking the 'law' into their own hands, and unfortunates who did not meet with their strict morality paid the penalty for crossing them. It seems we have yet to root out these 'loonies' from our modern social establishment, as you so ably demonstrate, you have no concept of what it is to show mercy, or to accept the facts that some of us have problems that cannot be resolved by rules the rest of us adhere to and abide by. There is an old saying, admittedly based in a religious mind set, that I, a rabid atheist cannot find a better phrase to cover... "There but for the grace of God go I!..... another religious one being, Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Just hope that you do not upset your own apple cart some day for fear of one with your mind set turns it onto you.[/p][/quote]Let me get this straight, you challenge me for writing a comment on a situation I don't know the background of, then when I offer my explanation for my original opinion (which in hindsight was in the heat of the moment) you then form an un educated opinion of me by classing me as a vigilante loony? That's a tad ironic. The murder on Monday- I don't see anyone saying we should hold back opinions as he may have been ill. It's tragic that those two children will now probably suffer mentally for the rest of their lives for what that woman has done to them, but that's okay as it now gives them a free pass to commit crimes. Yes the woman probably is ill, as was Beverley Allit the angel of death nurse with munchausen by proxy but what they've both done is wrong and nothing can excuse it. I have empathy as she, ill or not must have been in a hell of a state to do such an atrocious thing, there is no denying that it is atrocious, she needs help, needs punishment and needs serious rehabilitation before she can be near a child ever again. I wonder if, god forbid you would be quite so understanding if it were your children recovering in hospital. As that's where my opinions come from, my heart that is full of love for my children. I won't apologise for feeling anger toward anyone who can hurt a child. I will not judge you as I don't know you and don't know the reasons for your opinions, I will respect them as you have the same right as to them as I do mine, just because they happen to be different does not mean that I am a loony responsible for all that is bad in society. My thoughts remain with the children for their recovery, now and in the future. Allylou
  • Score: 11

11:19am Thu 8 May 14

Howie' says...

Cymru Am Beth wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust



.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community.
All comes down to cost at the end of the day.
Money is more important than lives in todays society.
If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.
[quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community. All comes down to cost at the end of the day. Money is more important than lives in todays society.[/p][/quote]If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy. Howie'
  • Score: 1

11:57am Thu 8 May 14

welshmen says...

Howie' wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust




.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community.
All comes down to cost at the end of the day.
Money is more important than lives in todays society.
If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.
That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ...
[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community. All comes down to cost at the end of the day. Money is more important than lives in todays society.[/p][/quote]If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.[/p][/quote]That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ... welshmen
  • Score: -4

1:14pm Thu 8 May 14

Howie' says...

welshmen wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust





.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community.
All comes down to cost at the end of the day.
Money is more important than lives in todays society.
If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.
That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ...
Thatcher's 'care in the community' policy had been in for nearly 10 years when Labour came to power welshmen, did you expect them to reopen all the institutions that had closed? As for your silly comment about Brady and Hindley, it would be remiss of me not to point out that it is the party of law and order (Conservatives) that allowed Michael (Skullcracker) Wheatley to walk out of an open prison when he should have been serving 13 life sentences. Nothing to do with so called 'do-gooders' more to do with Tory policy of telling the electorate how tough on crime they are whilst the reality is they have nearly 700 inmates serving life sentences in open prisons who are free to walk out whenever they please.
[quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community. All comes down to cost at the end of the day. Money is more important than lives in todays society.[/p][/quote]If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.[/p][/quote]That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ...[/p][/quote]Thatcher's 'care in the community' policy had been in for nearly 10 years when Labour came to power welshmen, did you expect them to reopen all the institutions that had closed? As for your silly comment about Brady and Hindley, it would be remiss of me not to point out that it is the party of law and order (Conservatives) that allowed Michael (Skullcracker) Wheatley to walk out of an open prison when he should have been serving 13 life sentences. Nothing to do with so called 'do-gooders' more to do with Tory policy of telling the electorate how tough on crime they are whilst the reality is they have nearly 700 inmates serving life sentences in open prisons who are free to walk out whenever they please. Howie'
  • Score: 6

1:30pm Thu 8 May 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Howie' wrote:
welshmen wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust






.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community.
All comes down to cost at the end of the day.
Money is more important than lives in todays society.
If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.
That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ...
Thatcher's 'care in the community' policy had been in for nearly 10 years when Labour came to power welshmen, did you expect them to reopen all the institutions that had closed? As for your silly comment about Brady and Hindley, it would be remiss of me not to point out that it is the party of law and order (Conservatives) that allowed Michael (Skullcracker) Wheatley to walk out of an open prison when he should have been serving 13 life sentences. Nothing to do with so called 'do-gooders' more to do with Tory policy of telling the electorate how tough on crime they are whilst the reality is they have nearly 700 inmates serving life sentences in open prisons who are free to walk out whenever they please.
Trouble is that the Conservatives are constrained to a certain extent by do-gooders such as that idiot Clegg.
I do take your point though about their being weak on crime.
The whole Lib/ Lab/ Con parties have gone soft on everything.
Maybe it is time to look at other parties. Although, when it comes to the election, you can rely on the Welsh to vote Labour in again.
[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community. All comes down to cost at the end of the day. Money is more important than lives in todays society.[/p][/quote]If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.[/p][/quote]That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ...[/p][/quote]Thatcher's 'care in the community' policy had been in for nearly 10 years when Labour came to power welshmen, did you expect them to reopen all the institutions that had closed? As for your silly comment about Brady and Hindley, it would be remiss of me not to point out that it is the party of law and order (Conservatives) that allowed Michael (Skullcracker) Wheatley to walk out of an open prison when he should have been serving 13 life sentences. Nothing to do with so called 'do-gooders' more to do with Tory policy of telling the electorate how tough on crime they are whilst the reality is they have nearly 700 inmates serving life sentences in open prisons who are free to walk out whenever they please.[/p][/quote]Trouble is that the Conservatives are constrained to a certain extent by do-gooders such as that idiot Clegg. I do take your point though about their being weak on crime. The whole Lib/ Lab/ Con parties have gone soft on everything. Maybe it is time to look at other parties. Although, when it comes to the election, you can rely on the Welsh to vote Labour in again. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: -5

3:07pm Thu 8 May 14

Jimport says...

welshmen wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
Jimport wrote:
Ultimate Worrier wrote:
I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.
Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details.

"Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain.

I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust





.co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.
Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well.

I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.
They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community.
All comes down to cost at the end of the day.
Money is more important than lives in todays society.
If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.
That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ...
But they weren't freed, so you've argued against your own point really haven't you.
[quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jimport[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ultimate Worrier[/bold] wrote: I can't believe there are people attempting to stick up for this woman on the grounds of possible mental illness. Mentally ill or not, if you take a knife to your own children you should be punished and are clearly not fit to be a parent, whether that's her fault or not.[/p][/quote]Let's leave this particular case aside for a moment., we have no idea of the details. "Mentally ill or not" - Are you seriously saying that someone with, say Schizophrenia for example, should be punished for their actions? Despite the medical knowledge we have regarding brain-chemical factors affecting the mesolimbic pathway in the brain, or differences on fMRI scans between the brains of non-Schizophrenic and Schizophrenic people? Would you punish an elderly man with dementia who has struck out at his carers? Dementia patients often become aggressive, again due to physical factors in the brain. I suggest you get some more information. Start with the Zito Trust: http://www.zitotrust .co.uk/ . Jon Zito was stabbed to death by a Schizophrenic patient. His widow Jayne realised that the killers illness couldn't be 'punished out of him' any more than a 10 year stretch in prison could make a diabetic person's pancreas produce insulin properly. She did something positive, campaigning for better treatment and support. If she can find the dignity to understand that, then you can at least get a better idea of the complexities of these issues.[/p][/quote]Yes, I am totally suggesting that they should be punished for their actions. Just because you suffer from a mental illness it doesn't mean that the general population should be exposed to that risk as well. I'm sure it is no comfort to the victims of violent crime if the perpetrator was mentally ill. They should be separated from the rest of society.[/p][/quote]They used to be, but this is not done anymore as all the institutions have been shut down and patients released back into the community. All comes down to cost at the end of the day. Money is more important than lives in todays society.[/p][/quote]If I remember that was Margaret Thatchers 'care in the community' policy.[/p][/quote]That grew worse under Labour for decades, it's a wonder Brady and Hindly were not freed under licence from the do-gooders at the Labour HQ...[/p][/quote]But they weren't freed, so you've argued against your own point really haven't you. Jimport
  • Score: 3

4:21pm Fri 9 May 14

Emma Lou 85 says...

I'm reading these comments and feel so angry this girl is my friend and nobody knows her back ground and wot she have been thou in her life she loved her kids and her kids loved her she was having a mental breakdown and had ask for help many of times and social services turned there back on her here we have yet another case where social services have let a family down who was crying out for help yes it's awful wot these kids have been thou but look at the bigger picture and don't be so quick to judge it's not for me to write on here wot this girl have been thou but I will not have ppl judge a friend like this when u don't no the full story...
I'm reading these comments and feel so angry this girl is my friend and nobody knows her back ground and wot she have been thou in her life she loved her kids and her kids loved her she was having a mental breakdown and had ask for help many of times and social services turned there back on her here we have yet another case where social services have let a family down who was crying out for help yes it's awful wot these kids have been thou but look at the bigger picture and don't be so quick to judge it's not for me to write on here wot this girl have been thou but I will not have ppl judge a friend like this when u don't no the full story... Emma Lou 85
  • Score: 5

8:18pm Fri 9 May 14

Mervyn James says...

Ignore is never an excuse. People respond on a primal level, children have been attacked by the one person no-one expects would ever do that, although they are perfectly willing to accept a man could do it, so looking into a reason for a mother doing this, is pretty alien to most. It becomes a sort of mob rule and everyone judges. But people having a mental breakdown are not able to respond on a rational level. If Social Services let this family down, then yes, they are culpable for not stepping in with support, and failing to protect the children. We don't know the primary drives to the incident, we should wait until an assessment puts it in perspective. 25% of us have a mental health issue, that is an official statistic. 24% of them are ignored and told to get a grip....
Ignore is never an excuse. People respond on a primal level, children have been attacked by the one person no-one expects would ever do that, although they are perfectly willing to accept a man could do it, so looking into a reason for a mother doing this, is pretty alien to most. It becomes a sort of mob rule and everyone judges. But people having a mental breakdown are not able to respond on a rational level. If Social Services let this family down, then yes, they are culpable for not stepping in with support, and failing to protect the children. We don't know the primary drives to the incident, we should wait until an assessment puts it in perspective. 25% of us have a mental health issue, that is an official statistic. 24% of them are ignored and told to get a grip.... Mervyn James
  • Score: 5

5:06pm Sun 11 May 14

julia-lewis92 says...

No matter what happens to the mother I hope that those helpless children are treated and recover in hospital. I hope these children don't let what's happened run their lives and that they continue to grow up in a hopefully safe and happy home.
No matter what happens to the mother I hope that those helpless children are treated and recover in hospital. I hope these children don't let what's happened run their lives and that they continue to grow up in a hopefully safe and happy home. julia-lewis92
  • Score: 2

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