A smokescreen

2:00pm Wednesday 24th October 2012 in Letters

THE issue of cost in the provision of Welsh in official documentation is merely another tediously mendacious pretext.

Its cost is miniscule, particularly when viewed in comparison to the myriad of material impositions placed, without discernible benefit, upon my nation. One can, for all practical purposes, legitimately disregard all such pathetic anglophile attempts at subterfuge. Their actual objection is to any measure of self-determination being afforded to my people. The alien and sourly xenophobic elements within our society having failed to devise any rational counter-argument to our aspiration to autonomy, now find themselves reduced to desperately raising trivial and inconsequential irrelevancies in response to this slight recognition of my nation’s entitlement.

H Roland ap Watcyn, Commercial Street, Griffithstown, Pontypool

Comments(43)

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
2:10pm Wed 24 Oct 12

Ap watcyn - A load of tosh. Got to be something wrong with someoine called Watkins who cals themselves ap Watcyn.

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Llanmartinangel says...
5:59pm Wed 24 Oct 12

My people?? That'll be ten per cent of the population then. We support the other ninety. Question: when you get 'self-determination'
, where will the benefits and other monies that flow into Wales come from. Google 'Greece' mate.

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Mervyn James says...
7:16pm Wed 24 Oct 12

It's a wind up. Accept reality. Welsh is still in Wales, bi-libgual access is an legal requirement, the Assembly can only grow in power and the arguments were debated and subsequently thrown out when the election took place. All this reaction is just sour grapes from the people one suspects never voted anyway, too late now. You have an Westminster parliament nobody voted in for the same reason, plenty to moan about with them.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
7:26pm Wed 24 Oct 12

Merv - up to your nonsense again. This man IS Owain Glendwr using 'HIS nation'. Are you related to him Merv?

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Llanmartinangel says...
8:33pm Wed 24 Oct 12

And it won't change the laws of economics Merv. Wales is bankrupt but on the bright side you can all sing as you starve.

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chris227 says...
11:08pm Wed 24 Oct 12

what nonsense wales is now the poorest land in western europe we cannot afford this, newport is literally like a third world slum we have not a penny to waste

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Mudwolf says...
6:37am Thu 25 Oct 12

Change the record Chris or better still move away, Newport is a great place except for constant knockers like you.

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Mervyn James says...
8:06am Thu 25 Oct 12

james.dyer7@ntlworld
.com wrote:
Merv - up to your nonsense again. This man IS Owain Glendwr using 'HIS nation'. Are you related to him Merv?
As I recall it wasn't me who raised any issue about bi-lingual access. I defend the right to it, and just find the carping entirely negative and anti-wales. I think most negative reaction only arms those people who think the definition of 'Welching' is alive and thriving in Newport.... never mind English having ago at us, we have plenty IN Wales ever ready to do it also. If they want to improve welsh prospects this is not the way to do it. Years ago we had that campaign "I'm backing Britain' now we need one "I'm backing Wales." yet, we have to fend of critics who see THAT as entirely negative ? stop blaming the Assembly and welsh people, start blaming the attitudes of losers and whiners towards them.

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Llanmartinangel says...
8:07am Thu 25 Oct 12

Mudwolf wrote:
Change the record Chris or better still move away, Newport is a great place except for constant knockers like you.
That must be why so many chavs, gypsies, drug addicts and immigrants want to live there. With all those descerning people one wonders why all the shops are leaving.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
8:12am Thu 25 Oct 12

well said Merv

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gathin says...
9:47am Thu 25 Oct 12

I know, having everything printed twice is stupidity at the highest level haha. I'd rather my kids were taught Mandarin or Tagalog as at least then learning a language wouldn't be such a massive waste of their time. The Welsh language is the plastic-power-in-Car
diff bay's "War against terror" or **** and an excuse to fleece the tax-payers.
V Sad

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Owain Vaughan says...
11:35am Thu 25 Oct 12

This letter is the most self-indulgent tripe I've ever read. A xenophobe accusing everyone else of xenophobia. A classic.

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gathin says...
11:37am Thu 25 Oct 12

^^^ yeah, what he said^^^

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Llanmartinangel says...
11:54am Thu 25 Oct 12

Owain Vaughan wrote:
This letter is the most self-indulgent tripe I've ever read. A xenophobe accusing everyone else of xenophobia. A classic.
Now now. The Welsh Moses ('let my people go') is among us so show some respect. Well, him or a certain German dictator who shall remain nameless, I can't decide which. I love the statement about 'failure to provide any counter-arguements' when no-one has put any viable pros for Wales declaring UDI and following North Korea into the abyss. Now stop being evil anglophiles and repeat after me......
Hugh G Ap Pendage

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Llanmartinangel says...
11:54am Thu 25 Oct 12

Owain Vaughan wrote:
This letter is the most self-indulgent tripe I've ever read. A xenophobe accusing everyone else of xenophobia. A classic.
Now now. The Welsh Moses ('let my people go') is among us so show some respect. Well, him or a certain German dictator who shall remain nameless, I can't decide which. I love the statement about 'failure to provide any counter-arguements' when no-one has put any viable pros for Wales declaring UDI and following North Korea into the abyss. Now stop being evil anglophiles and repeat after me......
Hugh G Ap Pendage

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gathin says...
11:57am Thu 25 Oct 12

Why is everybody inventing Welsh versions of their original English names? Do I sense a few complexes in our midst?

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
12:12pm Thu 25 Oct 12

gathin - to be honest, people who use these daft names like Ap daffyd are putting on a pretense of welshness. |What's wrong with Davies or Smith?

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Llanmartinangel says...
12:15pm Thu 25 Oct 12

gathin wrote:
Why is everybody inventing Welsh versions of their original English names? Do I sense a few complexes in our midst?
In case no-one got it, mine was a joke. (Huge Appendage...). Oh never mind.

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gathin says...
12:42pm Thu 25 Oct 12

Witty haha!

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Owain Vaughan says...
12:52pm Thu 25 Oct 12

Llanmartinangel wrote:
gathin wrote:
Why is everybody inventing Welsh versions of their original English names? Do I sense a few complexes in our midst?
In case no-one got it, mine was a joke. (Huge Appendage...). Oh never mind.
I got it. (The joke that is)

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county mad says...
2:07pm Thu 25 Oct 12

Wasting scarce resources on a dead language brilliant! Then it takes a genius like Mr ap pretentious to defend it
Ima ap palled

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Bobevans says...
2:30pm Thu 25 Oct 12

The coalition are going to allow the WAG to borrow money. THey will though if they borrow have to increases taxes in Wales to fund the borrowing. They will also be transferring the responsibility for Welsh Language provision to Wales . They will then be responsible for funding it. It is presumed they would increase taxes in Wales to pay for it.

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Bobevans says...
2:30pm Thu 25 Oct 12

The coalition are going to allow the WAG to borrow money. THey will though if they borrow have to increases taxes in Wales to fund the borrowing. They will also be transferring the responsibility for Welsh Language provision to Wales . They will then be responsible for funding it. It is presumed they would increase taxes in Wales to pay for it.

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Llanmartinangel says...
3:37pm Thu 25 Oct 12

Bobevans wrote:
The coalition are going to allow the WAG to borrow money. THey will though if they borrow have to increases taxes in Wales to fund the borrowing. They will also be transferring the responsibility for Welsh Language provision to Wales . They will then be responsible for funding it. It is presumed they would increase taxes in Wales to pay for it.
You have to admire politicians. The whole of Europe is going down the tubes due to having borrowed money to buy themselves power and squander it on unaffordable social programmes and now they intend to let WAG follow this excellent example of dullard economics. One thing you can guarantee is that whatever the WAG spend it on will not benefit the people who are responsible for the repayments (that's us by the way) one bit.

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gathin says...
3:53pm Thu 25 Oct 12

There's the real world then there's their world. There's a chasm bigger than the biggest hole in-between. How they can claim to represent us is an affrontment to an intelligent society.
Fat Rose and the others; this means you!

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Mervyn James says...
7:12pm Thu 25 Oct 12

Bobevans wrote:
The coalition are going to allow the WAG to borrow money. THey will though if they borrow have to increases taxes in Wales to fund the borrowing. They will also be transferring the responsibility for Welsh Language provision to Wales . They will then be responsible for funding it. It is presumed they would increase taxes in Wales to pay for it.
Westminster borrows BILLIONS, as does Scotland now, Wales is still to be limited to half or less of What Scotland is doing. Every time Wales got dosh from European funding for developing run-down areas, The Westminster government cut the national contribution to the same amount rendering no increased money to develop, thus we gained nothing. However canny Scots stopped them doing it there. Cardiff is going to borrow millions for the biggest house building program in 40 years. Their city planner said "A city HAS to expand or die..." not an statement Newport seems to be supporting, but who is getting the best of it ? not us. Cardiff spends more than us on bi-lingual stuff too. Not slowed them down.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
7:19pm Thu 25 Oct 12

some good points Merv

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Llanmartinangel says...
7:31pm Thu 25 Oct 12

By the cringe. Wales gets EU grants because its poor. No-one ever successfully borrowed their way out of poverty (Greece again). If the borrowing is secured against tax receipts then tax receipts from where? Who? Answer that one Merv.

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CM1 says...
10:22pm Thu 25 Oct 12

One example is Tax Increment Financng, whereby you borrow to invest in infrastructure and pay back though the business rates generated by the businesses that move to the 'scheme' as a result. There is a valid argument regarding borrowing to invest, leading to increased private sector investment and reducing benefit payments due to increased employment. Whether you believe this to be a valid argument or otherwise, politicians attempting to simply equate national borrowing to a household budget are either misguided or misleading, depending upon your level of cynicism. Greece really is not a good comparison; its economy is nothing like that of the UK. A little off track from the original topic but.....

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Llanmartinangel says...
5:54am Fri 26 Oct 12

We weren't talking about the UK economy, we were talking about Wales. Like Greece, Wales has no large manufacturing or finance sector, is hugely dependent on public sector paid jobs (ie already funded out of taxation). It has no viable road infrastructure or airport. So you borrow to invest in what? The M4 extension? (10 years to deliver). Who (or how) do you fund the repayments in the meantime? Incidentally, the UK as a whole borrows to fund a 60% increase in welfare spending since 1997. That's like using your credit card to pay your rent. A failed European model.

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Mervyn James says...
9:39am Fri 26 Oct 12

Llanmartinangel wrote:
By the cringe. Wales gets EU grants because its poor. No-one ever successfully borrowed their way out of poverty (Greece again). If the borrowing is secured against tax receipts then tax receipts from where? Who? Answer that one Merv.
European grants AREN'T borrowing. What we saw was this money given to improve Wales syphoned off via Westminster thus we never got it. Without borrowing we couldn't buy a house, car, business couldn't prosper or survive or expand, jobs would never arrive. I don't disagree with those that say individuals should not be allowed to borrow with no collateral, but they have stifled financial blood to the heart of Business and progress. Many councils SIT on assets unable to spend them to improve, because of an Westminster directive too. Giving tax raising powers to Wales might help as well, as well as nationalising the water here.

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Llanmartinangel says...
12:02pm Fri 26 Oct 12

Mervyn James wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
By the cringe. Wales gets EU grants because its poor. No-one ever successfully borrowed their way out of poverty (Greece again). If the borrowing is secured against tax receipts then tax receipts from where? Who? Answer that one Merv.
European grants AREN'T borrowing. What we saw was this money given to improve Wales syphoned off via Westminster thus we never got it. Without borrowing we couldn't buy a house, car, business couldn't prosper or survive or expand, jobs would never arrive. I don't disagree with those that say individuals should not be allowed to borrow with no collateral, but they have stifled financial blood to the heart of Business and progress. Many councils SIT on assets unable to spend them to improve, because of an Westminster directive too. Giving tax raising powers to Wales might help as well, as well as nationalising the water here.
I didn't suggest that the grants were borrowing Mervyn, is even reading English beyond you? Poor areas of the EU get them. I said that if you are skint then borrowing is a bad idea as an improvement strategy. Wales is incapable of generating wealth on it's own by the usual means, as it's largely a tax-payer funded economy already. You still haven't answered who would be responsible for the repayments on anything Wales borrows.

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cwmbran man says...
3:24pm Fri 26 Oct 12

CM1 wrote:
One example is Tax Increment Financng, whereby you borrow to invest in infrastructure and pay back though the business rates generated by the businesses that move to the 'scheme' as a result. There is a valid argument regarding borrowing to invest, leading to increased private sector investment and reducing benefit payments due to increased employment. Whether you believe this to be a valid argument or otherwise, politicians attempting to simply equate national borrowing to a household budget are either misguided or misleading, depending upon your level of cynicism. Greece really is not a good comparison; its economy is nothing like that of the UK. A little off track from the original topic but.....
T I F Financing wont work, have a drive around, there are already hundreds of empty business / office units, who are going to be filling these new ones to pay off the debt ???

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cwmbran man says...
3:25pm Fri 26 Oct 12

On the above point, theres hundreds in cwmbran so i would suggest 10's of thousands countrywide.

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Mervyn James says...
6:44pm Fri 26 Oct 12

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
By the cringe. Wales gets EU grants because its poor. No-one ever successfully borrowed their way out of poverty (Greece again). If the borrowing is secured against tax receipts then tax receipts from where? Who? Answer that one Merv.
European grants AREN'T borrowing. What we saw was this money given to improve Wales syphoned off via Westminster thus we never got it. Without borrowing we couldn't buy a house, car, business couldn't prosper or survive or expand, jobs would never arrive. I don't disagree with those that say individuals should not be allowed to borrow with no collateral, but they have stifled financial blood to the heart of Business and progress. Many councils SIT on assets unable to spend them to improve, because of an Westminster directive too. Giving tax raising powers to Wales might help as well, as well as nationalising the water here.
I didn't suggest that the grants were borrowing Mervyn, is even reading English beyond you? Poor areas of the EU get them. I said that if you are skint then borrowing is a bad idea as an improvement strategy. Wales is incapable of generating wealth on it's own by the usual means, as it's largely a tax-payer funded economy already. You still haven't answered who would be responsible for the repayments on anything Wales borrows.
You, and me.

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Llanmartinangel says...
8:06am Sat 27 Oct 12

Well you may be fine with that, I'm not. We pay too much now.

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Cymru Am Beth says...
9:04am Sat 27 Oct 12

county mad wrote:
Wasting scarce resources on a dead language brilliant! Then it takes a genius like Mr ap pretentious to defend it Ima ap palled
Very good.

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Cymru Am Beth says...
9:18am Sat 27 Oct 12

I agree with most of the comments on here.
Wales is a benefit dependant nation and would be unable in its present state to support itself.
I voted against the formation of a Welsh Assembly, beacause I thought it would be divisive.
I have noticed that since the incarnation of this entity, attitudes towards the Welsh (especially by the English) seem to have been on the whole, more negative.
The last thing we want to endear ourselves to others is this sort of attitude displayed by ap Watcyn.
I am all for Welsh tradition, but I think that this ridiculous rant by him is a step too far.

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Mervyn James says...
11:36am Sat 27 Oct 12

I read lots about Wales being run-down, and 'benefit dependent' the suggestion being it happens nowhere else. It is time to quit the carping and the obvious fear the benefits will stop as an excuse to welsh bashing and running it down, in case it means rolling up our sleeves to sort it out.

I detect a distinct lack of pride in Wales or the will to do ANYTHING to get Wales out of the mess it is in. Over-focusing on 'language' is just an excuse, to do NOTHING but stop Wales Doing anything for itself in case we get 'cut off without a penny', we should be reading that bottom line and doing it for Wales not against it.

If we abandoned the assembly tomorrow do you think for a minute it means England will pour money into Wales, in your dreams. So, a lack of realism too.

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Llanmartinangel says...
1:34pm Sat 27 Oct 12

England pours money into Wales and Scotland now. The WAG is an irrelevance. The issue with WAG is that it presides over a disintegrating health service and a disproportionately tax funded economy. It's largesse on language, which matters little to those waiting for operations, smacks of fiddling while Rome burns.

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Mervyn James says...
10:33am Sun 28 Oct 12

I noticed yesterdat Jim (Hi Jim !), posted mail regarding this issue yet again. I would ask he could please stop using the term 'Welshies' I'd welcome any debate on bi-liguality, It goes at the person not the issue, it exhibits as a general derogatory term for all welsh people too. I'm not in the PC game, I oppose it, but that way of addressing welsh supporters isn't playing the game. So far we have put up with 'language fascists' and other terms unrelated to the issue. Let's keep it clean.

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Llanmartinangel says...
11:26am Sun 28 Oct 12

Strange that no-one is ever offended by the terms 'Brits' or 'Limeys'. As for 'language fascists' which doesn't imply any racial slur at all, it does illustrate the extreme approach of forcing a language education on children of people who expressly don't want it. Much of the commentary on here is level-headed analysis of the futility of taking an extreme approach. I haven't for example, seen anyone say 'ban Welsh altogether', so why therefore is it not fair play to allow people who want to opt out, to do so?

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Mervyn James says...
11:26am Mon 29 Oct 12

I can't see WHERE the coercion is. OK they post bi-lingual to you, it is not read by you you read presumably the other side in your preferred language, so who is being 'coerced' ? Your access is there the welsh reader's access is there. No-one is saying get rid of the English access are they ? Having to reiterate all the time is getting very very boring. The bi-lingual access is law, that was a law formed democratically. The comment ceased to be about bilingual access and deteriorated into name-calling quite quickly ! Language fascism and welshies has nothing to do with bi-lingual access and more to do with opposing people who support welsh and that access, who having lost the argument at day one, then resorted to name-calling and all sorts of spurious claims welsh was being forced on them. I don't call it level-headed It just seems now argument for argument sake.

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