In defence of Welsh tongue (From South Wales Argus)

Rhisga - how utterly pretentious. It does not even have a valid Welsh language etymology!

Not so look here http : // www. genuki. org. uk/ big/wal/ MON/ Risca/index. html seems valid enough. I can agree we all have a right to speak how we want and use what language we want, no-one is criticising the English speaker. Why they persist in a relentless attack on the non-english speakers is a mystery, I prefer mystery as opposed to relentless moans and whines about it. If you cannot understand then learn, else... ? I bet the go to Spain and demand the Spanish speak english... I understand that is how a third of the world now follows English but they got there the same way, a blanket refusal to accept 'foreigners' or their languages. It is why we are now at the back of the que in Asia/Europe and elsewhere we are too limited in what we can speak. And too determined never to learn also. Now we learn or ELSE. Your decision. We cannot be little Englanders any more and expect to succeed at anything.

The Welsh language is a burden to school children and the business in Wales. It is not forward thinking it provides nothing but nostalgia and those hanging on to the past. Dont get me wrong I love history and culture and the importance of it all but the culture of having it forced down our throats and teachers having to learn it to teach english speakers - I would love to know the cost the WAG have allocated for this. While the English are looking forward and using school time to educate we are backwards in learning a language that will provide our children with no better prospects than working for WAG!!! Rather our children spent this time playing sport.

Floppy backed wrote:
The Welsh language is a burden to school children and the business in Wales. It is not forward thinking it provides nothing but nostalgia and those hanging on to the past. Dont get me wrong I love history and culture and the importance of it all but the culture of having it forced down our throats and teachers having to learn it to teach english speakers - I would love to know the cost the WAG have allocated for this. While the English are looking forward and using school time to educate we are backwards in learning a language that will provide our children with no better prospects than working for WAG!!! Rather our children spent this time playing sport.

Well said. One thing though, you'll never find out just how much WAG spend on it, they're terrified that if the facts were made public, those people who have had awful experiences in dreadful Welsh health facilities might get noisy.

i see david cameron is trying to cut contributions to the EU and good job too. But our glorious WAG are complaining about cuts they may receive spending 200 million per year in a dying language while pleading to the British taxpayer they are skint . Absolutely shocking .

The money should be spent on nationalising the severn bridge and encouraging businesses to locate to Wales.

No money spent on a culture is ever wasted, it is identity. Some of us don't want to be clones, or with no culture at all except TV and takeaways. They just attack the 'welshies' of course that zeroes everything they say after. It's discrimination it is virtual racial abuse. That they seem quite happy to ignore an UK law passing it as a right goes right over their heads. That's a worry, in that it targets welsh speakers in their own country. Perhaps we should let English die out and speak Arabic, n 50 years we will anyway, or maybe the polish will do it. English have no central identity, they are jealous the welsh have.

we should blow up the Severn bridges tell Westminster we dont what their grants and ban english.

third world here we come!!

Mervyn James wrote:
No money spent on a culture is ever wasted, it is identity. Some of us don't want to be clones, or with no culture at all except TV and takeaways. They just attack the 'welshies' of course that zeroes everything they say after. It's discrimination it is virtual racial abuse. That they seem quite happy to ignore an UK law passing it as a right goes right over their heads. That's a worry, in that it targets welsh speakers in their own country. Perhaps we should let English die out and speak Arabic, n 50 years we will anyway, or maybe the polish will do it. English have no central identity, they are jealous the welsh have.

There's hardly a word in that post that can't be taken apart. 'No money spent on culture is ever wasted'? Really? Surely it depends on how much and whether it has any beneficial effect? 'Racial abuse'? Welsh people discussing how Welsh budgets are spent can't be termed 'racial'. And as for 'discrimination' well it could be argued that the people who disagree with the WAGs 'Welsh anything at any price' policy are the ones being discriminated against. Only this week WAG stumped up £20k to save yet another Welsh speaker only event after Cardiff City Council decided it was inappropriate for them to fund it. I wonder which budget they stole that from?

The Welsh language has become a serious burdon on the economy and education of Wales.

In spite of the billions thrown at Welsh the speaking of it is falling fast the latests census figures show a 2.2% fall. Actual usage is now below 10%

Have Welsh as an optional subject in schools and encourage it's social use but that is as far as it goes.

Those that want more than that should have to pay for it. They though are not so keen on Welsh when it comes to them picking up the cost

Mervyn - you have failed to show the etymology of "Rhisga" - you have merely linked to a site that uses it!

Sources show the place name has been consistently spelled "Risca" since 1146. Using made-up Welsh-sounding names like "Rhisga" or "Cil-y-coed" is pure pretension.

It's a price I am happy to pay, and to approve of. I cannot see how welsh speakers getting funds for an welsh education for their children, is wrong, perhaps you can enlighten me. The WAG spends many millions supporting Bengali/Urdu, Polish and 17 other languages used in Education on a daily basis.

Fact. Wales has 3m people, 1 in every 6, 500,000 last census, has welsh at their core. talk here is if only half a dozen are involved. Obviously there are instances where it may not be appropriate to offer funds. Westminster/Wales gave LG millions and they did a runner. They would not have got that funding from anyone with a brain cell, but quangoes aer fund drainers, all we can do is tryto get them wound up. I don't recall all that many instances where Welsh access was funded where there was no need for it. Anyway it is an legal obligation.

Mervyn James wrote:
It's a price I am happy to pay, and to approve of. I cannot see how welsh speakers getting funds for an welsh education for their children, is wrong, perhaps you can enlighten me. The WAG spends many millions supporting Bengali/Urdu, Polish and 17 other languages used in Education on a daily basis.

Fact. Wales has 3m people, 1 in every 6, 500,000 last census, has welsh at their core. talk here is if only half a dozen are involved. Obviously there are instances where it may not be appropriate to offer funds. Westminster/Wales gave LG millions and they did a runner. They would not have got that funding from anyone with a brain cell, but quangoes aer fund drainers, all we can do is tryto get them wound up. I don't recall all that many instances where Welsh access was funded where there was no need for it. Anyway it is an legal obligation.

'I cannot see how welsh speakers getting funds for an welsh education for their children, is wrong'. Neither can I. It's compelling every child to learn regardless of parental wishes that concerns me.
'Westminster/Wales gave LG millions and they did a runner'. Precisely. Governments waste money and should be scrutinised at every turn. Which is why we should hold them to account for wasting money on spending on language if it's being done for purely dogmatic reasons and not because it actually achieves anything.

As a SME owner I cannot see why when tendering for work in the community I get deducted points because I dont have a welsh language policy or do I offer any Welsh services - why is this? what is the point? A business cannot afford to employ a translator just in case. I nor my parents have ever spoken welsh and only my grandparents very lightly. Its still for the minority and is minority indeed - I get so annoyed when I phone the local authority of a non-welsh speaking area of Wales I have to endure the Welsh language first rambling on and on and receiving booklets in welsh and english....you seriously cant tell me its worth it for a bit of culture!

A welsh education is a legal right, so like any other form of medium in education the funds are there or should be to meet it. You don't challenge other languages supported in schools ? most of them are NOT for educational purposes or such but interpreting and training children in basic English before you start.

Following the logic they should not even be benefiting via an British education but should have learnt English first. Their parents use English second and demand a right to use whatever language is theirs again, FIRST.

Welsh children are bi-lingual. How can learning the language of your own country, be viewed as an dogmatic act ? What does it achieve ? What achievement/s are you demanding ? I is no use to you, it is no use to anyone else ?

If you want to debate about wasted money, I would not personally start with the welsh language, it would not be on my list of perceived waste. I think perhaps Newport CC might, ATOS, many charities, Westminster MP's, tax perks for rich bankers and political *ankers, or a dozen others would be way up there.

Surely they biggest sector of criminal wastage are the City Bankers, who wasted Billions playing poker with our money. A Culture enriches a country, fraud's don't.

Here, here Mervyn!

The one place Welsh speakers should be able to speak their own language without harrassment or discrimination is in their own country. Equality is what we ask for and to be able to go about our lives without having someone ranting their anti-welsh rubbish at us.

Floppy backed wrote:
As a SME owner I cannot see why when tendering for work in the community I get deducted points because I dont have a welsh language policy or do I offer any Welsh services - why is this? what is the point? A business cannot afford to employ a translator just in case. I nor my parents have ever spoken welsh and only my grandparents very lightly. Its still for the minority and is minority indeed - I get so annoyed when I phone the local authority of a non-welsh speaking area of Wales I have to endure the Welsh language first rambling on and on and receiving booklets in welsh and english....you seriously cant tell me its worth it for a bit of culture!

This is another post Mervyn will ignore. In one of the most depressed areas of Europe, our politicians think its a great idea to load obstacles and bureacracy on to entrepreneurs and small businesses to absolutely no benefit whatever other than their own petty dogma. They then blame the poor job prospects here on Westminster. The costs of this fruitless exercise in appeasing 10% of the Welsh population is both obvious and, as in this case, hidden. It's a disgrace that the debate can't even be had without someone dragging up bankers, LG and all the other waste which isn't disputed but not relevant here.

Mwy Eira wrote:
Here, here Mervyn!

The one place Welsh speakers should be able to speak their own language without harrassment or discrimination is in their own country. Equality is what we ask for and to be able to go about our lives without having someone ranting their anti-welsh rubbish at us.

You clearly haven't read a single word of the actual debate. Why am I not surprised.

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Floppy backed wrote:
As a SME owner I cannot see why when tendering for work in the community I get deducted points because I dont have a welsh language policy or do I offer any Welsh services - why is this? what is the point? A business cannot afford to employ a translator just in case. I nor my parents have ever spoken welsh and only my grandparents very lightly. Its still for the minority and is minority indeed - I get so annoyed when I phone the local authority of a non-welsh speaking area of Wales I have to endure the Welsh language first rambling on and on and receiving booklets in welsh and english....you seriously cant tell me its worth it for a bit of culture!

This is another post Mervyn will ignore. In one of the most depressed areas of Europe, our politicians think its a great idea to load obstacles and bureacracy on to entrepreneurs and small businesses to absolutely no benefit whatever other than their own petty dogma. They then blame the poor job prospects here on Westminster. The costs of this fruitless exercise in appeasing 10% of the Welsh population is both obvious and, as in this case, hidden. It's a disgrace that the debate can't even be had without someone dragging up bankers, LG and all the other waste which isn't disputed but not relevant here.

Not ignoring the post, I just do not find it pertinent to welsh language rights. Given most by default here are English-speaking (Welsh are bi-lingual too), this is not 'proof' the welsh language hinders job prospects at all.

My experience, is where a job is advertised, a welsh speaker would NOT go out of their way to demand everything in Welsh to make things harder. You say we should not drag up bankers/Westminster etc, but the poster did quote another area as well, it seems if a poster agrees with YOU that validates the anti-welsh stance.

I do not believe small business is suffering because of an onus to conduct everything in Welsh, you cannot prove that. In predominantly welsh-speaking areas, then obviously they would be more adamant about it being used at POS areas, and quite rightly too. It is even more important then.

No benefit, no use, no-one cares about it, enough with the negativity and harassments, it is a right of half a million living welsh people, America has 5 million welsh speakers....get over it, and move on.

Floppy backed wrote:
As a SME owner I cannot see why when tendering for work in the community I get deducted points because I dont have a welsh language policy or do I offer any Welsh services - why is this? what is the point? A business cannot afford to employ a translator just in case. I nor my parents have ever spoken welsh and only my grandparents very lightly. Its still for the minority and is minority indeed - I get so annoyed when I phone the local authority of a non-welsh speaking area of Wales I have to endure the Welsh language first rambling on and on and receiving booklets in welsh and english....you seriously cant tell me its worth it for a bit of culture!

This is the same pile of idiots that base the grading of schools on how many free school meals they provide.
They couldn't run a p**s up in a brewery.

There is no excuse for the budget on Welsh being reduced. In most of Wales hardly anyone uses it, Most other budgets are being cut but that of Welsh is being protected.

Is it better to try to keep hospitals open and the Ambulance service and Sports facilities going which dramatically more people use or does the WElsh budget stay protected even though almost no one uses Welsh and they can in any case speak English

It is a matter of priorties when money it tight. WE seem to have strange priorites

Yes, 99% of Welsh speakers do speak English but when they are ill or stressed they revert to their mother tongue. You obviously have no idea do you. As for almost no one using Welsh, again you have no idea do you.

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mwy Eira wrote:
Here, here Mervyn!

The one place Welsh speakers should be able to speak their own language without harrassment or discrimination is in their own country. Equality is what we ask for and to be able to go about our lives without having someone ranting their anti-welsh rubbish at us.

You clearly haven't read a single word of the actual debate. Why am I not surprised.

Could you elaborate please, especially the last sentence. Are you trying to imply that I am not able to read English properly, which would be farcical as it is my mother tongue. Welsh speakers have just as much rights as you to have whatever official literature or signs in Welsh as the English speaker has. Perhaps we should remove all the English signs and official literature in Anglesey as only 10% of the population use them anyway. What a waste of money you could say. Or how about the English signs in Birmingham and Bradford? No one uses them. Actually while we are about it, lets remove the deaf signing and subtitles on the TV as I can hear perfectly well. That would save a fortune. Just because you don't use something doesn't mean it is a waste of money.

Mwy Eira wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mwy Eira wrote:
Here, here Mervyn!

The one place Welsh speakers should be able to speak their own language without harrassment or discrimination is in their own country. Equality is what we ask for and to be able to go about our lives without having someone ranting their anti-welsh rubbish at us.

You clearly haven't read a single word of the actual debate. Why am I not surprised.

Could you elaborate please, especially the last sentence. Are you trying to imply that I am not able to read English properly, which would be farcical as it is my mother tongue. Welsh speakers have just as much rights as you to have whatever official literature or signs in Welsh as the English speaker has. Perhaps we should remove all the English signs and official literature in Anglesey as only 10% of the population use them anyway. What a waste of money you could say. Or how about the English signs in Birmingham and Bradford? No one uses them. Actually while we are about it, lets remove the deaf signing and subtitles on the TV as I can hear perfectly well. That would save a fortune. Just because you don't use something doesn't mean it is a waste of money.

Well the debate here is about whether or not the spending on it has stemmed the decline. If it hasn't then it is arguably being wasted.Comparing it with 'deaf subtitles' is nonsense because the deaf have no alternative so that's a spurious argument. And no-one is harassing anyone or discriminating but in a democracy, one is free to debate how their taxes are spent. Many of us believe that the spending on Welsh is disproportionate to the outcome and the methods of delivery questionable (a TV sattion costing £100M p.a. with programs of such great interest, no-one watches them, saturation duplication of every single message, regardless of audience, compulsory education etc). Why, for example, in Newport, do public bodies answer telephones in Welsh first (Royal Gwent Hospital for example), when the likelihood of encountering anyone who understands it is slight indeed. Polish is more widely used here. Minority cultural issues are always going to be the subject of 'how much should we spend of taxpayers money?' style discussions, be it Opera, Art Galleries or language. You are free to hold your view as I am mine.

Using the NHS is spurious too, telephones are a joke, the BBC in Wales just put out an 'panorama' program whereby patients with hearing loss and other communication issues (Your 'minorities'), had not been able to USE the NHS for years, 76% had never been attended to by OOH services, and most never get access at the RGH on admissions either.

How many 'minorities' are you going to blame ? we've had welsh-speakers, now those with hearing loss, (Currently 9 million in the UK, 15,000 profound deaf, 300,000 in Wales alone, another piddling minority I suppose), maybe no-one should get ill at all and have done with it.

Yes we all have a right to a view, so why are you opposing ours ? Cest la vie seems a bit one-sided ! Welsh people starved to get that access. No matter how people try to justify ant-welsh language stances it only comes out one way, you are opposing the basic equal rights of half a million people.


When you advocate Polish instead, time for this debate to end I think. Polish IS the language of Poland.

They don't answer the phone in Welsh first at the Royal Gwent. "Aneurin Bevan Health Board, Operator Services" is what you get as far as I am aware. Unless you count "Aneurin Bevan" of course.

Not all welsh speakers have any choice either. Again you have no idea what you are talking about as you are not part of the welsh speaking community. This is Wales not England, people here speak Welsh. End of debate.

You defeat your own argument. Myself and others on here would rather see the money currently being wasted on Welsh spent on people with disabilities such as deafness. Their pain is real and not some kind of professional persecution complex. And if people don't want their views challenged or debated well why send their letters in the first place? And I wasn't advocating Polish just pointing out that its more widely used in Newport and Cardiff than Welsh.

Mwy Eira wrote:
They don't answer the phone in Welsh first at the Royal Gwent. "Aneurin Bevan Health Board, Operator Services" is what you get as far as I am aware. Unless you count "Aneurin Bevan" of course.

Not all welsh speakers have any choice either. Again you have no idea what you are talking about as you are not part of the welsh speaking community. This is Wales not England, people here speak Welsh. End of debate.

We're both right on the Royal Gwent. Live operators answer in English (they would, they are from Newport) but the voicemail def does Welsh first. And as for 'end of debate'? Well with spending on Welsh rising and use of it falling, even in it's heartlands, and with no sign of any reversal in that, in your dreams.

I really find it laughable that people living in Wales who are against the welsh language think the money spent on trying to save the language and promote the welsh language. will solve huge problems elsewhere, such as the NHS, regeneration of our towns, reduce the severn bridge toll, better social care services. I can't see this money actually skimming the surface! Someone sarcastically commented that perhaps we should go further and not spend money on other nations literature in schools or interpretative services who live here. But their point was correct that would be discrimination against a minority. It doesn't matter if it is needed a language is part of someone's identity. You could argue that religion is not a need but it is part of someone's identity and refusing someone that is discrimination. Just like not providing services and literature in Welsh would be for the minority that speak welsh or choose to speak Welsh in Wales, however small. Also for those who would like Wales to abandon its main source of culture due to the economy crisis when would you deem it ok for us to get it up and running again; when the economy is in recovery again or when the economy is thriving again. I don't think it can or work like that. It is an asset where a value cannot be placed upon it.It can't be just shut and reopened like a history museum. I still think even if we were a rich country the doubters would still see it as a waste of money people. I don 't speak Welsh but i think it's amazing for our country to have our own native language, something which makes us stand out and unique. Who knows one day it might catch fire and a generation might be speaking it. I won't live to see that but lets hope that we don't discriminate against the English language and lets keep the literature and road signs available to the minority :)

jonathan25 wrote:
I really find it laughable that people living in Wales who are against the welsh language think the money spent on trying to save the language and promote the welsh language. will solve huge problems elsewhere, such as the NHS, regeneration of our towns, reduce the severn bridge toll, better social care services. I can't see this money actually skimming the surface! Someone sarcastically commented that perhaps we should go further and not spend money on other nations literature in schools or interpretative services who live here. But their point was correct that would be discrimination against a minority. It doesn't matter if it is needed a language is part of someone's identity. You could argue that religion is not a need but it is part of someone's identity and refusing someone that is discrimination. Just like not providing services and literature in Welsh would be for the minority that speak welsh or choose to speak Welsh in Wales, however small. Also for those who would like Wales to abandon its main source of culture due to the economy crisis when would you deem it ok for us to get it up and running again; when the economy is in recovery again or when the economy is thriving again. I don't think it can or work like that. It is an asset where a value cannot be placed upon it.It can't be just shut and reopened like a history museum. I still think even if we were a rich country the doubters would still see it as a waste of money people. I don 't speak Welsh but i think it's amazing for our country to have our own native language, something which makes us stand out and unique. Who knows one day it might catch fire and a generation might be speaking it. I won't live to see that but lets hope that we don't discriminate against the English language and lets keep the literature and road signs available to the minority :)

What a barrel of contradictions. So if you don't spend 16k you have in the bank in a new car you can't spend it replacing the roof? £1Billion has been spent in the last 8 years on Welsh language broadcasting alone. You could remove the bridge tolls and build the M4 extension for that. If Welsh broadcasting is helping prevent the demise of the language then how come virtually no-one watches or listens? And how come its still not stemming the decline? Now add in all the other costs, signage, documentation, costs to businesses and services and I think you'll discover its very serious money. But then, you're probably not regularly visiting a food kitchen are you?

Who are you to assume what i am doing or not doing for that matter? Make your point but don't get personal. It stinks of desperation, bitterness and is an underhand and typically(from what i have read of your posts) oppressive way of getting your point across.

Let's revisit what I actually said then eh? 'YOU'RE PROBABLY NOT' followed by a 'question' mark. In other words, I didn't say you were, I enquired with predictive probability. That probability is based on the likelihood of someone unable to feed their family, thinking squandering money at that sort of level in one of the most depressed parts of Britain was a good idea. You said the amount is insignificant, I evidenced that it is anything but. I note you don't take issue with that now though?

I could make a lot of preconceived judgements about you without knowing a single thing about your life and then throw the word 'probably' in like some sort of get out of jail card. What is that probability based on? the fact that i can access a computer and am fairly articulate. Judgemental people like yourself are single minded and fail to see the merit in other's opinions. Although, they always think they are right they are sometimes way off the mark. I don't feel i have to justify my life to you in order to be allowed to make a point, but you are way off the mark. I actually didn't say the amount of money spent is insignificant i just stated that it wouldn't solve all the problems that people have suggested it will on here! Everyone from businesses, social services and people are having to tighten their belts so i think maybe the budget for welsh language or media should be cut(probably already has been but i don't think it should just be abandoned) I actually agree with some of the points made on here in particular that welsh should not be mandatory in high especially in areas like Newport where young people are apathetic towards the language. I am though in favour of making welsh schools more available to children across Wales. Wrongly or rightly thats just my opinion! So i am not going to let someone who PROBABLY has nothing better to do than spend all his time working out how he can belittle and undermine other people's concerns and views on here!!

Then there is hope yet. I wasn't suggesting the money could solve all the ills either. But it does strike me as strange that it could make a serious material difference in many ways and yet its a no-go area for Welsh politicians who throw the blame for Wales' poverty at Westminster.