Low opinion

MR NORMAN Jones seems to have a pretty low opinion of his fellow residents of south Wales (Letters, December 6). Because a majority of us “keep voting Labour”, Mr Jones thinks we’re “ignorant”.

Perhaps he hasn’t quite got the hang of democracy?

If a majority of us keep electing Labour AMs, MPs and councillors, then who is Mr Jones to hold us in contempt?

And the great majority of school leavers are neither uneducated nor unemployable. Mr Jones, shame on you for writing off our young people.

Cllr Gez Kirby St Andrews Drive Pontllanfraith

Comments (86)

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12:37pm Thu 12 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies. _Bryan_

12:48pm Thu 12 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
its one man, one vote. i dont understand how you can think this is not representative?

if someone wants a donkey to represent them, have at it!
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]its one man, one vote. i dont understand how you can think this is not representative? if someone wants a donkey to represent them, have at it! whatintheworld

1:09pm Thu 12 Dec 13

Mr Angry says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
I take it you think the same of the people who who elect donkeys with blue rossettes in the South East of England ?
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]I take it you think the same of the people who who elect donkeys with blue rossettes in the South East of England ? Mr Angry

1:27pm Thu 12 Dec 13

county mad says...

Its the frustration of being unrepresented by closed minds driven by the politics of envy,the labour pparty has in 4 administrstions since 1945 wrecked the economy with reckless abandon,and still people cannot see the damage it does to their living standards and their childrens future. The hoary old tales ,"Churchill shot the miners " false Thatcher closed thr mines, Callaghan closed 260+ Thatcher 168 and that after a long damaging strike Thatcher milk snatcher WRONG Edward Short Labour education secretary started that in 1968 for secondry schools with juniors to lose it in 1973 Thatcher brought it forward 1yr due to the economic mire we were in.
If people made an informed choice based on the candidate not who their family has always voted for we might have better local govt,look at the mess the gas factory in Cardiff are making thats why Cameron is trying to put more responsibility on them then we will see the incompetence for ourselves!
Its the frustration of being unrepresented by closed minds driven by the politics of envy,the labour pparty has in 4 administrstions since 1945 wrecked the economy with reckless abandon,and still people cannot see the damage it does to their living standards and their childrens future. The hoary old tales ,"Churchill shot the miners " false Thatcher closed thr mines, Callaghan closed 260+ Thatcher 168 and that after a long damaging strike Thatcher milk snatcher WRONG Edward Short Labour education secretary started that in 1968 for secondry schools with juniors to lose it in 1973 Thatcher brought it forward 1yr due to the economic mire we were in. If people made an informed choice based on the candidate not who their family has always voted for we might have better local govt,look at the mess the gas factory in Cardiff are making thats why Cameron is trying to put more responsibility on them then we will see the incompetence for ourselves! county mad

1:31pm Thu 12 Dec 13

county mad says...

Mr Angry wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
I take it you think the same of the people who who elect donkeys with blue rossettes in the South East of England ?
Quite agree its the same closed minds that elect incompetant imbeciles from all sides
[quote][p][bold]Mr Angry[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]I take it you think the same of the people who who elect donkeys with blue rossettes in the South East of England ?[/p][/quote]Quite agree its the same closed minds that elect incompetant imbeciles from all sides county mad

2:19pm Thu 12 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

'Because a majority of us “keep voting Labour”, Mr Jones thinks we’re “ignorant”.'

Not ignorant necessarily, just insane. Well, basing it on Einstein's definition of insanity being 'repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result' that is. Or is someone going to tell us that Labour domination here has improved anything in the last twenty five years except for the residents of their plush building in the Bay?
'Because a majority of us “keep voting Labour”, Mr Jones thinks we’re “ignorant”.' Not ignorant necessarily, just insane. Well, basing it on Einstein's definition of insanity being 'repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result' that is. Or is someone going to tell us that Labour domination here has improved anything in the last twenty five years except for the residents of their plush building in the Bay? Llanmartinangel

3:12pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

a lot of People in Wales will not vote conservatives. They are hated, especially Cameron. The only problem is, Labour are not a much better option but who else is there to vote for. Its a two horse race and I think that's the problem. I know I would like to vote for 'none of the above' but that's a wasted vote so I wouldn't but I cannot vote Cameron because of his welfare policy reforms which are devastating the disabled. Ive never really been in to politics but since seeing the hardship people are having to live through (working families too) I have come to believe that the only way out for our country is to get a totally new party in leadership. But who?
a lot of People in Wales will not vote conservatives. They are hated, especially Cameron. The only problem is, Labour are not a much better option but who else is there to vote for. Its a two horse race and I think that's the problem. I know I would like to vote for 'none of the above' but that's a wasted vote so I wouldn't but I cannot vote Cameron because of his welfare policy reforms which are devastating the disabled. Ive never really been in to politics but since seeing the hardship people are having to live through (working families too) I have come to believe that the only way out for our country is to get a totally new party in leadership. But who? endthelies

3:28pm Thu 12 Dec 13

Mr Angry says...

endthelies wrote:
a lot of People in Wales will not vote conservatives. They are hated, especially Cameron. The only problem is, Labour are not a much better option but who else is there to vote for. Its a two horse race and I think that's the problem. I know I would like to vote for 'none of the above' but that's a wasted vote so I wouldn't but I cannot vote Cameron because of his welfare policy reforms which are devastating the disabled. Ive never really been in to politics but since seeing the hardship people are having to live through (working families too) I have come to believe that the only way out for our country is to get a totally new party in leadership. But who?
Don't vote. If there is a really low turnout maybe they will get the message
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: a lot of People in Wales will not vote conservatives. They are hated, especially Cameron. The only problem is, Labour are not a much better option but who else is there to vote for. Its a two horse race and I think that's the problem. I know I would like to vote for 'none of the above' but that's a wasted vote so I wouldn't but I cannot vote Cameron because of his welfare policy reforms which are devastating the disabled. Ive never really been in to politics but since seeing the hardship people are having to live through (working families too) I have come to believe that the only way out for our country is to get a totally new party in leadership. But who?[/p][/quote]Don't vote. If there is a really low turnout maybe they will get the message Mr Angry

3:34pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.
Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that. endthelies

3:42pm Thu 12 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

endthelies wrote:
Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.
Do you have any evidence to support this claim? On face value it sounds like pure socialist propoganda.
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.[/p][/quote]Do you have any evidence to support this claim? On face value it sounds like pure socialist propoganda. _Bryan_

3:48pm Thu 12 Dec 13

pwlldu says...

The facts show worsts education and health results in western europe. Wales poverty is the highest in western europe.
The facts show worsts education and health results in western europe. Wales poverty is the highest in western europe. pwlldu

3:49pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

You know me Bryan. I always have evidence and here it is
http://www.express.c
o.uk/news/uk/371465/
Deaths-warning-as-MP
s-blast-Atos
You know me Bryan. I always have evidence and here it is http://www.express.c o.uk/news/uk/371465/ Deaths-warning-as-MP s-blast-Atos endthelies

3:54pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

That's THOUSANDS of disabled folk, and if people are choosing to ignore it, then they are as bad as those who are helping it to happen.
That's THOUSANDS of disabled folk, and if people are choosing to ignore it, then they are as bad as those who are helping it to happen. endthelies

4:06pm Thu 12 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

some contributors here arent concerned that there is a lack of representation.

theyre just frustrated at what they see as an unenlightened majority.

bit arrogant if you ask me!
some contributors here arent concerned that there is a lack of representation. theyre just frustrated at what they see as an unenlightened majority. bit arrogant if you ask me! whatintheworld

4:10pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

Call it what you will whatintheworld. I just gave my reasons for not voting tory.
Call it what you will whatintheworld. I just gave my reasons for not voting tory. endthelies

4:14pm Thu 12 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

endthelies wrote:
Call it what you will whatintheworld. I just gave my reasons for not voting tory.
im refering to those who suggest labour keep getting in because the voters are either "ignorant", "insane" or have "closed minds".
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: Call it what you will whatintheworld. I just gave my reasons for not voting tory.[/p][/quote]im refering to those who suggest labour keep getting in because the voters are either "ignorant", "insane" or have "closed minds". whatintheworld

4:17pm Thu 12 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

by the way - as a member of a household who will be directly affected by the bedroom tax (one of whom is a housebound disabled man), i commend your repeated posts speaking against the policy on these boards!
by the way - as a member of a household who will be directly affected by the bedroom tax (one of whom is a housebound disabled man), i commend your repeated posts speaking against the policy on these boards! whatintheworld

4:19pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

whatintheworld wrote:
endthelies wrote:
Call it what you will whatintheworld. I just gave my reasons for not voting tory.
im refering to those who suggest labour keep getting in because the voters are either "ignorant", "insane" or have "closed minds".
OOps, My mistake. Apologies xx
[quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: Call it what you will whatintheworld. I just gave my reasons for not voting tory.[/p][/quote]im refering to those who suggest labour keep getting in because the voters are either "ignorant", "insane" or have "closed minds".[/p][/quote]OOps, My mistake. Apologies xx endthelies

4:22pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

whatintheworld wrote:
by the way - as a member of a household who will be directly affected by the bedroom tax (one of whom is a housebound disabled man), i commend your repeated posts speaking against the policy on these boards!
And thank you for that too. I just can't stand to see the way disabled people are being treated, but I get knocked down a lot on here. However, I'm as tough as old boots :)
[quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: by the way - as a member of a household who will be directly affected by the bedroom tax (one of whom is a housebound disabled man), i commend your repeated posts speaking against the policy on these boards![/p][/quote]And thank you for that too. I just can't stand to see the way disabled people are being treated, but I get knocked down a lot on here. However, I'm as tough as old boots :) endthelies

4:32pm Thu 12 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

Not the most reliable of sources (either the express or Mr Meacher) but taking these figures at face value 1,300 people have died "after being placed in the "work-related activity group", for those currently too ill to be in a job but expected to take steps towards an eventual return to employment."

that clearly states that the assessment had acknowledged that these people were too ill to work, but would be able to do so if the recovered.

Further, the Office for National Statistics gives the UK annual death rate as 6,236 deaths per million. As there were 1.6m being assessed, the mortality rate of this group is far below that of the population in general which suggests that the assessment is achieving its aim.
Not the most reliable of sources (either the express or Mr Meacher) but taking these figures at face value 1,300 people have died "after being placed in the "work-related activity group", for those currently too ill to be in a job but expected to take steps towards an eventual return to employment." that clearly states that the assessment had acknowledged that these people were too ill to work, but would be able to do so if the recovered. Further, the Office for National Statistics gives the UK annual death rate as 6,236 deaths per million. As there were 1.6m being assessed, the mortality rate of this group is far below that of the population in general which suggests that the assessment is achieving its aim. _Bryan_

5:41pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

That's fine Bryan. You keep on believing what you want. In my mind, one person dying is to many, and please look into the ways Atos assess their claimants. I guarantee you, there are thousands upon thousands of complaints about the lies this company put on their assessments of people. They override Doctors that have known a patient for years in a 5 minute medical examination. But hey. You keep your blinkers on if it makes you feel better.
That's fine Bryan. You keep on believing what you want. In my mind, one person dying is to many, and please look into the ways Atos assess their claimants. I guarantee you, there are thousands upon thousands of complaints about the lies this company put on their assessments of people. They override Doctors that have known a patient for years in a 5 minute medical examination. But hey. You keep your blinkers on if it makes you feel better. endthelies

5:48pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

Please read this report from Macmillan Cancer. Maybe this will enlighten you as to why people die when they are placed In the work related activity group.

http://www.macmillan
.org.uk/Documents/Ge
tInvolved/Campaigns/
Benefits/FailedByThe
SystemReport.pdf
Please read this report from Macmillan Cancer. Maybe this will enlighten you as to why people die when they are placed In the work related activity group. http://www.macmillan .org.uk/Documents/Ge tInvolved/Campaigns/ Benefits/FailedByThe SystemReport.pdf endthelies

6:35pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

I cant believe I was marked down for putting the Macmillan Cancer report on here. On second thoughts yes I can believe it and its sad. Maybe I'm too empathetic but I make no apologies for that because I'd rather show empathy than ignorance.
I cant believe I was marked down for putting the Macmillan Cancer report on here. On second thoughts yes I can believe it and its sad. Maybe I'm too empathetic but I make no apologies for that because I'd rather show empathy than ignorance. endthelies

6:59pm Thu 12 Dec 13

Mervyn James says...

I think I would have a very low opinion of any area voting Tory, but each to his own, so long as they stay in England lol.... Given tory policies are doing a great recruiting drive for Labour, I'm not complaining yet.... then again I'd vote for the devil himself before any tory.
I think I would have a very low opinion of any area voting Tory, but each to his own, so long as they stay in England lol.... Given tory policies are doing a great recruiting drive for Labour, I'm not complaining yet.... then again I'd vote for the devil himself before any tory. Mervyn James

7:10pm Thu 12 Dec 13

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.
It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes. GardenVarietyMushroom

7:48pm Thu 12 Dec 13

blackandamber says...

Iv'e said it before so I.ll say it again you could stick a red rosette on Bubbles the chimp and people would vote for it. Anybody who votes Labour after what they did to this once great country in their last thirteen years in office deserve all they get.
Iv'e said it before so I.ll say it again you could stick a red rosette on Bubbles the chimp and people would vote for it. Anybody who votes Labour after what they did to this once great country in their last thirteen years in office deserve all they get. blackandamber

7:58pm Thu 12 Dec 13

lowandhardandinthecorner says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.
I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor-
bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can.
I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.[/p][/quote]I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor- bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can. I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve. lowandhardandinthecorner

8:18pm Thu 12 Dec 13

scraptheWAG says...

i think the original letter was the surprise that people keep voting for a failed labour party devolution for wales has been a huge mistake we are now at the bottom of ever single table going and yet in my opinion the benefits culture in wales they still vote for this trash. money that is given by the eu for economic regeneration is now squandered on 70" plasmas empty planes to north wales the list goes on
i think the original letter was the surprise that people keep voting for a failed labour party devolution for wales has been a huge mistake we are now at the bottom of ever single table going and yet in my opinion the benefits culture in wales they still vote for this trash. money that is given by the eu for economic regeneration is now squandered on 70" plasmas empty planes to north wales the list goes on scraptheWAG

8:24pm Thu 12 Dec 13

welshmen says...

I can't understand why Wales is brainwashed into believing that any of the Labour, Conservative, Liberal and UKIP parties will do anything for the ordinary blue collar workers, they all talk the talk but NEVER walk the walk, yet all the Dia boys will vote for their fairy stories.

All you have to do is look back through our History, even when Wales had the Coal and Steel we were still the poor Nation, Wales needs a British National Party, not the pretender Plaid Cymru who would sell Wales to Foreigners for Forty pieces of Silver, similar to our neighbours in England, the Conservatives encourage, Chinese and Arab money buying London properties day by day,

We have to get back to producing making and selling our own goods, get our Elec Gas Water back under our Control, we are held to ransom over fuel needed for our growth, the people who control our energy control our Industries and GROWTH....
I can't understand why Wales is brainwashed into believing that any of the Labour, Conservative, Liberal and UKIP parties will do anything for the ordinary blue collar workers, they all talk the talk but NEVER walk the walk, yet all the Dia boys will vote for their fairy stories. All you have to do is look back through our History, even when Wales had the Coal and Steel we were still the poor Nation, Wales needs a British National Party, not the pretender Plaid Cymru who would sell Wales to Foreigners for Forty pieces of Silver, similar to our neighbours in England, the Conservatives encourage, Chinese and Arab money buying London properties day by day, We have to get back to producing making and selling our own goods, get our Elec Gas Water back under our Control, we are held to ransom over fuel needed for our growth, the people who control our energy control our Industries and GROWTH.... welshmen

8:41pm Thu 12 Dec 13

scraptheWAG says...

endthelies wrote:
Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.
no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.[/p][/quote]no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up scraptheWAG

9:34pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.
I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud. endthelies

9:37pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.
That's how I feel Mushroom. there's not a lot of choice in who you vote for but hell would freeze over before I'd vote Tory.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.[/p][/quote]That's how I feel Mushroom. there's not a lot of choice in who you vote for but hell would freeze over before I'd vote Tory. endthelies

9:45pm Thu 12 Dec 13

scraptheWAG says...

endthelies wrote:
I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.
no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.[/p][/quote]no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid. scraptheWAG

10:13pm Thu 12 Dec 13

Limestonecowboy says...

these posts are so funny as if Labour would make any diffference! has everyone forgotten Tony Blair ...oh well short memory syndrome things can only get better!
these posts are so funny as if Labour would make any diffference! has everyone forgotten Tony Blair ...oh well short memory syndrome things can only get better! Limestonecowboy

10:48pm Thu 12 Dec 13

endthelies says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.
no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.
Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you.
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.[/p][/quote]no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.[/p][/quote]Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you. endthelies

6:59am Fri 13 Dec 13

scraptheWAG says...

endthelies wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.
no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.
Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you.
Incapacity benefit was used by the government to stop the true unemployment figures being released. in merthr 25% of everyone in the town claim to be too disabled to work its like a premium job seekers allowance if you like
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.[/p][/quote]no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.[/p][/quote]Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you.[/p][/quote]Incapacity benefit was used by the government to stop the true unemployment figures being released. in merthr 25% of everyone in the town claim to be too disabled to work its like a premium job seekers allowance if you like scraptheWAG

9:26am Fri 13 Dec 13

Mervyn James says...

Limestonecowboy wrote:
these posts are so funny as if Labour would make any diffference! has everyone forgotten Tony Blair ...oh well short memory syndrome things can only get better!
It is the awful alternative, Tories are the worst party for Wales. As for generational voting blindly for Labour, don't belive it, people voting today don't know what a pit looks like and traditionally children of strong labour voters go the opposite way or not vote at all, most of the posters here don't vote, so they don't count. The answer is in themselves they don't like it, stand for office and change it, whinging from the sidelines is hardly going to do a thing, and just think of the wages you will shortly be able to pick up. Up by 11% no employer would match that. The issue seems to be armchair dissent, not real voting to change things.
[quote][p][bold]Limestonecowboy[/bold] wrote: these posts are so funny as if Labour would make any diffference! has everyone forgotten Tony Blair ...oh well short memory syndrome things can only get better![/p][/quote]It is the awful alternative, Tories are the worst party for Wales. As for generational voting blindly for Labour, don't belive it, people voting today don't know what a pit looks like and traditionally children of strong labour voters go the opposite way or not vote at all, most of the posters here don't vote, so they don't count. The answer is in themselves they don't like it, stand for office and change it, whinging from the sidelines is hardly going to do a thing, and just think of the wages you will shortly be able to pick up. Up by 11% no employer would match that. The issue seems to be armchair dissent, not real voting to change things. Mervyn James

10:19am Fri 13 Dec 13

endthelies says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.
no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.
Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you.
Incapacity benefit was used by the government to stop the true unemployment figures being released. in merthr 25% of everyone in the town claim to be too disabled to work its like a premium job seekers allowance if you like
That's fine Scrap. You too choose to believe what suits you without checking out the reality of the affects of welfare cuts on the disabled. Cancer patients being told their fit for work. Limbless servicemen being told their fit for work. Autistic people being told their fit for work. It disgusts me personally but there you go.
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.[/p][/quote]no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.[/p][/quote]Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you.[/p][/quote]Incapacity benefit was used by the government to stop the true unemployment figures being released. in merthr 25% of everyone in the town claim to be too disabled to work its like a premium job seekers allowance if you like[/p][/quote]That's fine Scrap. You too choose to believe what suits you without checking out the reality of the affects of welfare cuts on the disabled. Cancer patients being told their fit for work. Limbless servicemen being told their fit for work. Autistic people being told their fit for work. It disgusts me personally but there you go. endthelies

10:48am Fri 13 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

In the same way I challenged the "thousands" in end's post, I have to question the 25% figure from ScrapTheWag.

While I have no doubt that there are a number of people inappropriately claiming incapacity benefit, it is unlikely to be anywhere near that number. I don't have the time today to do the research for actual numbers, but (using high estimates) assuming that 5% of residents were claiming this benefit and that 20% of these should not be entitled to claim, this still only equates to 1% of the population.
In the same way I challenged the "thousands" in end's post, I have to question the 25% figure from ScrapTheWag. While I have no doubt that there are a number of people inappropriately claiming incapacity benefit, it is unlikely to be anywhere near that number. I don't have the time today to do the research for actual numbers, but (using high estimates) assuming that 5% of residents were claiming this benefit and that 20% of these should not be entitled to claim, this still only equates to 1% of the population. _Bryan_

3:37pm Fri 13 Dec 13

varteg1 says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.
no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up
You have the option to report these people. do it and be damned.
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.[/p][/quote]no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up[/p][/quote]You have the option to report these people. do it and be damned. varteg1

3:48pm Fri 13 Dec 13

pwlldu says...

All most Labour candidates need is between 30%- 40% of the vote to win. They hope that at least 30% maybe more don't vote, with the other candidates sharing the rest of the votes.
All most Labour candidates need is between 30%- 40% of the vote to win. They hope that at least 30% maybe more don't vote, with the other candidates sharing the rest of the votes. pwlldu

3:53pm Fri 13 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote: Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.
no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up
what youve got their mate is annecdotal evidence.

come back with some facts and figures like endthelies has
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.[/p][/quote]no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up[/p][/quote]what youve got their mate is annecdotal evidence. come back with some facts and figures like endthelies has whatintheworld

4:56pm Fri 13 Dec 13

endthelies says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.
no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.
Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you.
Incapacity benefit was used by the government to stop the true unemployment figures being released. in merthr 25% of everyone in the town claim to be too disabled to work its like a premium job seekers allowance if you like
That's true Scrap. Margaret Thatcher introduced them to hide the true unemployment figures caused by the mine closures. However, the government are now trying to distance themselves from that legacy at the cost of the lives of sick and disabled people.
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I see you didn't read the input from Macmillans then Scrapthewag. Tell me. Have you reported these people for benefit fraud.[/p][/quote]no i have not but i know a couple of people have as he works on a sat night and your typical civil servant works mon - fri 9 -5 with a hour for a lunch he is laughing, he was called in by the dss and asked was it true that he was working a and claiming and he said he was driving a bus every night for 12 hours as a favour and not getting paid.[/p][/quote]Well you should report him again then. You shouldn't go by another persons word. Do it yourself if its bothering you.[/p][/quote]Incapacity benefit was used by the government to stop the true unemployment figures being released. in merthr 25% of everyone in the town claim to be too disabled to work its like a premium job seekers allowance if you like[/p][/quote]That's true Scrap. Margaret Thatcher introduced them to hide the true unemployment figures caused by the mine closures. However, the government are now trying to distance themselves from that legacy at the cost of the lives of sick and disabled people. endthelies

5:34pm Fri 13 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

varteg1 wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
endthelies wrote:
Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.
no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up
You have the option to report these people. do it and be damned.
Indeed. If whistle-blowing is de riguer for our public servants then it's good enough for us.
[quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: Thousands have died already after having been declared 'fit for work'. I can't, in all good conscience, vote for a government that supports that.[/p][/quote]no this is a stupid post i know of two people personally who are perfectly capable of work - one claims incapacity for depression but still goes out drinking and working driving a bus of people nightclubbing on the weekend. The other claims to have a bad back put can still go to the gym twice a week and has a part time job in a pub serving on five hour shifts stood up[/p][/quote]You have the option to report these people. do it and be damned.[/p][/quote]Indeed. If whistle-blowing is de riguer for our public servants then it's good enough for us. Llanmartinangel

12:44am Sat 14 Dec 13

lowandhardandinthecorner says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
i think the original letter was the surprise that people keep voting for a failed labour party devolution for wales has been a huge mistake we are now at the bottom of ever single table going and yet in my opinion the benefits culture in wales they still vote for this trash. money that is given by the eu for economic regeneration is now squandered on 70" plasmas empty planes to north wales the list goes on
It's not that we are NOW, we have always been, at the bottom of the education league table and NOT as a result of the Welsh Assembly. We have such poor indicators in almost every criterion you might wish to measure,health, employment etc. included because Welsh matters have always been a matter of complete didinterest in Westminster except wayback when it could plunder it's natural resources.

Nothing has changed since that time and it's idle to suggest that the assembly can make dramatic improvements when it is starved of revenue-raising powers ( even if the population had enough spare cash to fund them ) and of course we lack any meaningful industrial and strategic infrastructure.
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: i think the original letter was the surprise that people keep voting for a failed labour party devolution for wales has been a huge mistake we are now at the bottom of ever single table going and yet in my opinion the benefits culture in wales they still vote for this trash. money that is given by the eu for economic regeneration is now squandered on 70" plasmas empty planes to north wales the list goes on[/p][/quote]It's not that we are NOW, we have always been, at the bottom of the education league table and NOT as a result of the Welsh Assembly. We have such poor indicators in almost every criterion you might wish to measure,health, employment etc. included because Welsh matters have always been a matter of complete didinterest in Westminster except wayback when it could plunder it's natural resources. Nothing has changed since that time and it's idle to suggest that the assembly can make dramatic improvements when it is starved of revenue-raising powers ( even if the population had enough spare cash to fund them ) and of course we lack any meaningful industrial and strategic infrastructure. lowandhardandinthecorner

12:51am Sat 14 Dec 13

lowandhardandinthecorner says...

lowandhardandintheco
rner
wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.
I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor-

bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can.
I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.
I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government.
[quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.[/p][/quote]I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor- bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can. I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.[/p][/quote]I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government. lowandhardandinthecorner

7:36am Sat 14 Dec 13

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

lowandhardandintheco
rner
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco

rner
wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.
I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor-


bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can.
I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.
I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government.
It certainly is. Try criticising David Davies (AKA 'The Tory Twonk') and see how many negatives you rack up for that.

Much as I cannot abide the WAG and what they're doing - the Tories are right about one thing, they're bloody useless - what they fail to understand though is that you could pin a red rosette on Jedward and they'd still get elected before the tories. It must drive them nuts.

About the only good thing that came from the eighties was that it made the Conservative Party unelectable in this country for quite some time.

Long may it continue.
[quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.[/p][/quote]I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor- bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can. I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.[/p][/quote]I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government.[/p][/quote]It certainly is. Try criticising David Davies (AKA 'The Tory Twonk') and see how many negatives you rack up for that. Much as I cannot abide the WAG and what they're doing - the Tories are right about one thing, they're bloody useless - what they fail to understand though is that you could pin a red rosette on Jedward and they'd still get elected before the tories. It must drive them nuts. About the only good thing that came from the eighties was that it made the Conservative Party unelectable in this country for quite some time. Long may it continue. GardenVarietyMushroom

9:28am Sat 14 Dec 13

county mad says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco

rner
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco


rner
wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo



m
wrote:
It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.
I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor-



bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can.
I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.
I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government.
It certainly is. Try criticising David Davies (AKA 'The Tory Twonk') and see how many negatives you rack up for that.

Much as I cannot abide the WAG and what they're doing - the Tories are right about one thing, they're bloody useless - what they fail to understand though is that you could pin a red rosette on Jedward and they'd still get elected before the tories. It must drive them nuts.

About the only good thing that came from the eighties was that it made the Conservative Party unelectable in this country for quite some time.

Long may it continue.
Has hurling abuse now replaced comment? Of course the feral left have always relied on slogans personality attacks myth and halftruths as opposed to reasoned arguement so yahboo sucks nah nah neh na na to you
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.[/p][/quote]I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor- bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can. I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.[/p][/quote]I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government.[/p][/quote]It certainly is. Try criticising David Davies (AKA 'The Tory Twonk') and see how many negatives you rack up for that. Much as I cannot abide the WAG and what they're doing - the Tories are right about one thing, they're bloody useless - what they fail to understand though is that you could pin a red rosette on Jedward and they'd still get elected before the tories. It must drive them nuts. About the only good thing that came from the eighties was that it made the Conservative Party unelectable in this country for quite some time. Long may it continue.[/p][/quote]Has hurling abuse now replaced comment? Of course the feral left have always relied on slogans personality attacks myth and halftruths as opposed to reasoned arguement so yahboo sucks nah nah neh na na to you county mad

10:13am Sat 14 Dec 13

scraptheWAG says...

lowandhardandintheco
rner
wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
i think the original letter was the surprise that people keep voting for a failed labour party devolution for wales has been a huge mistake we are now at the bottom of ever single table going and yet in my opinion the benefits culture in wales they still vote for this trash. money that is given by the eu for economic regeneration is now squandered on 70" plasmas empty planes to north wales the list goes on
It's not that we are NOW, we have always been, at the bottom of the education league table and NOT as a result of the Welsh Assembly. We have such poor indicators in almost every criterion you might wish to measure,health, employment etc. included because Welsh matters have always been a matter of complete didinterest in Westminster except wayback when it could plunder it's natural resources.

Nothing has changed since that time and it's idle to suggest that the assembly can make dramatic improvements when it is starved of revenue-raising powers ( even if the population had enough spare cash to fund them ) and of course we lack any meaningful industrial and strategic infrastructure.
starved of revenue raising powers WHAT you want to pay more tax these clowns are given billions by the EU most just wasted the WAG alone costs nearly half a billion per year to run the old welsh office just a fraction of this!
[quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: i think the original letter was the surprise that people keep voting for a failed labour party devolution for wales has been a huge mistake we are now at the bottom of ever single table going and yet in my opinion the benefits culture in wales they still vote for this trash. money that is given by the eu for economic regeneration is now squandered on 70" plasmas empty planes to north wales the list goes on[/p][/quote]It's not that we are NOW, we have always been, at the bottom of the education league table and NOT as a result of the Welsh Assembly. We have such poor indicators in almost every criterion you might wish to measure,health, employment etc. included because Welsh matters have always been a matter of complete didinterest in Westminster except wayback when it could plunder it's natural resources. Nothing has changed since that time and it's idle to suggest that the assembly can make dramatic improvements when it is starved of revenue-raising powers ( even if the population had enough spare cash to fund them ) and of course we lack any meaningful industrial and strategic infrastructure.[/p][/quote]starved of revenue raising powers WHAT you want to pay more tax these clowns are given billions by the EU most just wasted the WAG alone costs nearly half a billion per year to run the old welsh office just a fraction of this! scraptheWAG

10:14am Sat 14 Dec 13

Nig says...

People vote Labour to keep the Tories out , who by the way have not won an election for 21 years. Folk are not stupid , those who complain have to remember we live in democracy
People vote Labour to keep the Tories out , who by the way have not won an election for 21 years. Folk are not stupid , those who complain have to remember we live in democracy Nig

10:27am Sat 14 Dec 13

Nig says...

Mr Jones would have us all voting for UKIP a party that hates modern Britain, with its anti women comments , Mr Bloom called women **** for not cleaning behind the fridge , lets have a look behind Norman fridge. UKIP is a party with no women as elected representatives, which will be running no female candidates anywhere in the East of England next time round, whose only female MEP left the party because it was too sexist. They have consistently – in both word and deed – committed to reduce the rights of women. Godfrey Bloom really was the tip of the iceberg. UKIP Not a serious,credible party, but ideal for MR Norman Jones our resident Alf Garnet
Mr Jones would have us all voting for UKIP a party that hates modern Britain, with its anti women comments , Mr Bloom called women **** for not cleaning behind the fridge , lets have a look behind Norman fridge. UKIP is a party with no women as elected representatives, which will be running no female candidates anywhere in the East of England next time round, whose only female MEP left the party because it was too sexist. They have consistently – in both word and deed – committed to reduce the rights of women. Godfrey Bloom really was the tip of the iceberg. UKIP Not a serious,credible party, but ideal for MR Norman Jones our resident Alf Garnet Nig

10:47am Sat 14 Dec 13

Nig says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city. Nig

10:50am Sat 14 Dec 13

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

county mad wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco


rner
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco



rner
wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo




m
wrote:
It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.
I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor-




bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can.
I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.
I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government.
It certainly is. Try criticising David Davies (AKA 'The Tory Twonk') and see how many negatives you rack up for that.

Much as I cannot abide the WAG and what they're doing - the Tories are right about one thing, they're bloody useless - what they fail to understand though is that you could pin a red rosette on Jedward and they'd still get elected before the tories. It must drive them nuts.

About the only good thing that came from the eighties was that it made the Conservative Party unelectable in this country for quite some time.

Long may it continue.
Has hurling abuse now replaced comment? Of course the feral left have always relied on slogans personality attacks myth and halftruths as opposed to reasoned arguement so yahboo sucks nah nah neh na na to you
Sorry - we were obviously just phrasing our answers in language you Tories would understand.

Couldn't quite manage the hypocrisy part enough for an exact portrayal of a tory, but hey ho, no one is perfect.
[quote][p][bold]county mad[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: It's pretty straightforward really. People think that elections are a two horse race, and they're not voting for Labour, they're voting against the Tories... it'll be another generation at least before that changes.[/p][/quote]I tend to agree, if I thought Plaid had a chance in Newport I'd vote for them but I vote tactically to keep croney-helping,poor- bashing, corrupt lying tory barstewards as far away from this country's government as I can. I can't do much about England obviously and unfortunately the tories keep the South of England and the high population midlands happy to ensure they'll get enough votes to be re-elected with the help of their boot-licking Lib Dem turncoats : let's hope the latter get routed in 2015 - it's what they deserve.[/p][/quote]I see my post is currently rated as -3 which is surprising considering the MP's that this area returns to Parliament. It would tend to indicate that this little forum is a hotbed of apologists for this scumbag Tory/LibDem government.[/p][/quote]It certainly is. Try criticising David Davies (AKA 'The Tory Twonk') and see how many negatives you rack up for that. Much as I cannot abide the WAG and what they're doing - the Tories are right about one thing, they're bloody useless - what they fail to understand though is that you could pin a red rosette on Jedward and they'd still get elected before the tories. It must drive them nuts. About the only good thing that came from the eighties was that it made the Conservative Party unelectable in this country for quite some time. Long may it continue.[/p][/quote]Has hurling abuse now replaced comment? Of course the feral left have always relied on slogans personality attacks myth and halftruths as opposed to reasoned arguement so yahboo sucks nah nah neh na na to you[/p][/quote]Sorry - we were obviously just phrasing our answers in language you Tories would understand. Couldn't quite manage the hypocrisy part enough for an exact portrayal of a tory, but hey ho, no one is perfect. GardenVarietyMushroom

12:13pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

Nig wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.
Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.
[quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.[/p][/quote]Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot. Llanmartinangel

2:00pm Sat 14 Dec 13

endthelies says...

I think you only have to look at the living standards of people on low income, whether they be working or not, to see that this conservative government are dragging the people of this country down. soaring utility bills, food prices rising practically daily, petrol prices increasing and yet they take away working benefits and housing benefits to make sure these people have it doubly hard whilst they themselves have a £7000+ pay rise. They keep repeating they are for the working people of this country but that's a lie because they are not supporting the low paid worker and they also insist that 'we're all in this together' over austerity which is another crock of sh**. they haven't suffered any austerity measures at all. People are not stupid and know when they are being conned. They see what's going on around them and they will not vote this government in again. Thank God.
I think you only have to look at the living standards of people on low income, whether they be working or not, to see that this conservative government are dragging the people of this country down. soaring utility bills, food prices rising practically daily, petrol prices increasing and yet they take away working benefits and housing benefits to make sure these people have it doubly hard whilst they themselves have a £7000+ pay rise. They keep repeating they are for the working people of this country but that's a lie because they are not supporting the low paid worker and they also insist that 'we're all in this together' over austerity which is another crock of sh**. they haven't suffered any austerity measures at all. People are not stupid and know when they are being conned. They see what's going on around them and they will not vote this government in again. Thank God. endthelies

2:11pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

endthelies wrote:
I think you only have to look at the living standards of people on low income, whether they be working or not, to see that this conservative government are dragging the people of this country down. soaring utility bills, food prices rising practically daily, petrol prices increasing and yet they take away working benefits and housing benefits to make sure these people have it doubly hard whilst they themselves have a £7000+ pay rise. They keep repeating they are for the working people of this country but that's a lie because they are not supporting the low paid worker and they also insist that 'we're all in this together' over austerity which is another crock of sh**. they haven't suffered any austerity measures at all. People are not stupid and know when they are being conned. They see what's going on around them and they will not vote this government in again. Thank God.
Far be it from me to defend politicians but they had no input into the pay rise proposal and, as I understand it, they lose out in other ways even if they accept the deal (pensions etc). One thing is clear though, whilst it is always going to be difficult reigning public spending back, the size of the state in this country is way too big. I'd start by increasing the minimum wage and abolishing tax credits (and the civil service department that administers them). Abolish foreign aid abolish the Welsh Assembly. That'd be around £15 Billion without me even needing to get out of bed.
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I think you only have to look at the living standards of people on low income, whether they be working or not, to see that this conservative government are dragging the people of this country down. soaring utility bills, food prices rising practically daily, petrol prices increasing and yet they take away working benefits and housing benefits to make sure these people have it doubly hard whilst they themselves have a £7000+ pay rise. They keep repeating they are for the working people of this country but that's a lie because they are not supporting the low paid worker and they also insist that 'we're all in this together' over austerity which is another crock of sh**. they haven't suffered any austerity measures at all. People are not stupid and know when they are being conned. They see what's going on around them and they will not vote this government in again. Thank God.[/p][/quote]Far be it from me to defend politicians but they had no input into the pay rise proposal and, as I understand it, they lose out in other ways even if they accept the deal (pensions etc). One thing is clear though, whilst it is always going to be difficult reigning public spending back, the size of the state in this country is way too big. I'd start by increasing the minimum wage and abolishing tax credits (and the civil service department that administers them). Abolish foreign aid abolish the Welsh Assembly. That'd be around £15 Billion without me even needing to get out of bed. Llanmartinangel

2:12pm Sat 14 Dec 13

endthelies says...

I forgot to mention rising homelessness and foodbank numbers.
I forgot to mention rising homelessness and foodbank numbers. endthelies

2:15pm Sat 14 Dec 13

endthelies says...

I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.
I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too. endthelies

2:34pm Sat 14 Dec 13

welshmen says...

All of us putting our points over to others who have their point put back, it wont put anything right in this Country, our National debt, if you have seen the graph then you will know it keeps rising, its about £129 trillion, NO Government will be able to pay that back, the money men/women wont allow it anyway.

With the debt in their favour they have the power over any Government and Country, we need a Government who will tell the Bankers you can have your money paid back net of interest or you don't get any repayment, at the end of the day Government can print their own legal money excluding the banks, as long as the Government guarantee their money it's legal.

Stop all foreign Aid £12 Billion until we have all our NHS Hospitals fully manned with everything that's needed, the people of this Country give more to foreign charities than ANY other Country.

Get rid of the 2 million illegal immigrants here, any foreigner commits a crime is deported after sentence served, Get out of the EU swindle save us Billions, bring our Soldiers home £4-5 Billion a year they will round up the illegals and radical's and deport them aided by the UK Boarder Force/Agency....
All of us putting our points over to others who have their point put back, it wont put anything right in this Country, our National debt, if you have seen the graph then you will know it keeps rising, its about £129 trillion, NO Government will be able to pay that back, the money men/women wont allow it anyway. With the debt in their favour they have the power over any Government and Country, we need a Government who will tell the Bankers you can have your money paid back net of interest or you don't get any repayment, at the end of the day Government can print their own legal money excluding the banks, as long as the Government guarantee their money it's legal. Stop all foreign Aid £12 Billion until we have all our NHS Hospitals fully manned with everything that's needed, the people of this Country give more to foreign charities than ANY other Country. Get rid of the 2 million illegal immigrants here, any foreigner commits a crime is deported after sentence served, Get out of the EU swindle save us Billions, bring our Soldiers home £4-5 Billion a year they will round up the illegals and radical's and deport them aided by the UK Boarder Force/Agency.... welshmen

4:21pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

endthelies wrote:
I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.
They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.[/p][/quote]They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits. Llanmartinangel

6:34pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Nig says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.
Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.
and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.[/p][/quote]Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.[/p][/quote]and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt Nig

6:39pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Nig says...

all those city institutions that you care so much about have brought the country to its knees and received billions of Tax payers money and then pay 'each other millions in bounces for failing , That's Tory land
all those city institutions that you care so much about have brought the country to its knees and received billions of Tax payers money and then pay 'each other millions in bounces for failing , That's Tory land Nig

6:46pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Nig says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
In the same way I challenged the "thousands" in end's post, I have to question the 25% figure from ScrapTheWag.

While I have no doubt that there are a number of people inappropriately claiming incapacity benefit, it is unlikely to be anywhere near that number. I don't have the time today to do the research for actual numbers, but (using high estimates) assuming that 5% of residents were claiming this benefit and that 20% of these should not be entitled to claim, this still only equates to 1% of the population.
Government Stats show less than 1% of benefits claimed fraudulently , with 2% being paid out wrongfully by the DWP. The Tories know this, however they need a scapegoat for their failures and the poor will do
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: In the same way I challenged the "thousands" in end's post, I have to question the 25% figure from ScrapTheWag. While I have no doubt that there are a number of people inappropriately claiming incapacity benefit, it is unlikely to be anywhere near that number. I don't have the time today to do the research for actual numbers, but (using high estimates) assuming that 5% of residents were claiming this benefit and that 20% of these should not be entitled to claim, this still only equates to 1% of the population.[/p][/quote]Government Stats show less than 1% of benefits claimed fraudulently , with 2% being paid out wrongfully by the DWP. The Tories know this, however they need a scapegoat for their failures and the poor will do Nig

8:38pm Sat 14 Dec 13

endthelies says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.
They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.
They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.[/p][/quote]They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.[/p][/quote]They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country. endthelies

11:27pm Sat 14 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

endthelies wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.
They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.
They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country.
Your statement was 'they've stopped benefits and legal aid' which is not the same as you said second time.
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.[/p][/quote]They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.[/p][/quote]They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country.[/p][/quote]Your statement was 'they've stopped benefits and legal aid' which is not the same as you said second time. Llanmartinangel

8:39am Sun 15 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

Nig wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.
Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.
and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt
That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted.
[quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.[/p][/quote]Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.[/p][/quote]and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt[/p][/quote]That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted. Llanmartinangel

10:25am Sun 15 Dec 13

endthelies says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
endthelies wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.
They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.
They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country.
Your statement was 'they've stopped benefits and legal aid' which is not the same as you said second time.
Ergo, They've stopped legal aid. They've also stopped disabled people getting the benefits they deserve. Ergo, they've stopped benefits. I can't see the problem with that statement myself but there you go. If you want to pick holes to avoid the truth then so be it.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.[/p][/quote]They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.[/p][/quote]They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country.[/p][/quote]Your statement was 'they've stopped benefits and legal aid' which is not the same as you said second time.[/p][/quote]Ergo, They've stopped legal aid. They've also stopped disabled people getting the benefits they deserve. Ergo, they've stopped benefits. I can't see the problem with that statement myself but there you go. If you want to pick holes to avoid the truth then so be it. endthelies

10:40am Sun 15 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

endthelies wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
endthelies wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
endthelies wrote:
I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.
They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.
They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country.
Your statement was 'they've stopped benefits and legal aid' which is not the same as you said second time.
Ergo, They've stopped legal aid. They've also stopped disabled people getting the benefits they deserve. Ergo, they've stopped benefits. I can't see the problem with that statement myself but there you go. If you want to pick holes to avoid the truth then so be it.
At the risk of being pedantic, the only 'benefit' that has been stopped is child benefit to working people earning at the higher than £50k threshold, which becomes entirely negated and recovered through tax. Some benefits have been varied but no benefits have been 'dropped' apart from that one.
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: I'm sure that the politicians wouldn't have to except the pay rise if they didn't want to. after all, they are the ones with the power to stop benefits and legal aid (which they've done) so I'm sure they could stop their pay rise too.[/p][/quote]They haven't 'stopped' legal aid or benefits.[/p][/quote]They have stopped legal aid for those who wish to go to tribunal to fight their right for benefit and that's fact. you really should check on these things because its coming across to me that you really don't know what's going on in this country.[/p][/quote]Your statement was 'they've stopped benefits and legal aid' which is not the same as you said second time.[/p][/quote]Ergo, They've stopped legal aid. They've also stopped disabled people getting the benefits they deserve. Ergo, they've stopped benefits. I can't see the problem with that statement myself but there you go. If you want to pick holes to avoid the truth then so be it.[/p][/quote]At the risk of being pedantic, the only 'benefit' that has been stopped is child benefit to working people earning at the higher than £50k threshold, which becomes entirely negated and recovered through tax. Some benefits have been varied but no benefits have been 'dropped' apart from that one. Llanmartinangel

10:45am Sun 15 Dec 13

endthelies says...

They've stopped people being able to claim disability benefits by employing Atos, who lie to get people off disability benefits. You google how many people have had their disability benefits stopped, only to have them reinstated at an independent tribunal. Therefore. Their benefits are stopped from the moment Atos says they are not entitled (by their own dubious methods). Google Atos complaints as well and see what this company, with the backing of this government, are doing.
They've stopped people being able to claim disability benefits by employing Atos, who lie to get people off disability benefits. You google how many people have had their disability benefits stopped, only to have them reinstated at an independent tribunal. Therefore. Their benefits are stopped from the moment Atos says they are not entitled (by their own dubious methods). Google Atos complaints as well and see what this company, with the backing of this government, are doing. endthelies

12:19pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Nig says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.
Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.
and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt
That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted.
sorry you need to educate yourself the Governments own figures show that Cameron has borrowed more in 3 years than Labour did in 13, ( see the Times & Guardian) and the reason is set out by the institute of fiscal studies, simply put the Tories sucked demand out of the economy , tax revenues fell and they had to borrow more, to keep the UK a float, their promise to pay off the deficit will not be kept, that’s why they looking to cut more and more. Tosh will not do, the facts , however Facts Will.
The recovery is built on record personal debt and huge tax payers loans to banks to pump cheap money into the mortgage market that’s what caused the crash in 2008, the Tories always make things worse with their neo liberal far right monetarist failed dogma, which always cost the country and the poor pay the price, while Dave soaks the rich with tax breaks.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.[/p][/quote]Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.[/p][/quote]and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt[/p][/quote]That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted.[/p][/quote]sorry you need to educate yourself the Governments own figures show that Cameron has borrowed more in 3 years than Labour did in 13, ( see the Times & Guardian) and the reason is set out by the institute of fiscal studies, simply put the Tories sucked demand out of the economy , tax revenues fell and they had to borrow more, to keep the UK a float, their promise to pay off the deficit will not be kept, that’s why they looking to cut more and more. Tosh will not do, the facts , however Facts Will. The recovery is built on record personal debt and huge tax payers loans to banks to pump cheap money into the mortgage market that’s what caused the crash in 2008, the Tories always make things worse with their neo liberal far right monetarist failed dogma, which always cost the country and the poor pay the price, while Dave soaks the rich with tax breaks. Nig

12:25pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Nig says...

Nig wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.
Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.
and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt
That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted.
sorry you need to educate yourself the Governments own figures show that Cameron has borrowed more in 3 years than Labour did in 13, ( see the Times & Guardian) and the reason is set out by the institute of fiscal studies, simply put the Tories sucked demand out of the economy , tax revenues fell and they had to borrow more, to keep the UK a float, their promise to pay off the deficit will not be kept, that’s why they looking to cut more and more. Tosh will not do, the facts , however Facts Will.
The recovery is built on record personal debt and huge tax payers loans to banks to pump cheap money into the mortgage market that’s what caused the crash in 2008, the Tories always make things worse with their neo liberal far right monetarist failed dogma, which always cost the country and the poor pay the price, while Dave soaks the rich with tax breaks.
See article, I am always happy to educate > George Osborne's claims to be prudent with the nation's finances have been brutally undermined by the fact he has added more to Britain's £1.2 trillion debt pile in his three years as Chancellor than Labour did in thirteen.

The latest economic figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that the coalition has borrowed £430.072 billion, whereas the last Labour government managed to borrow just £429.975 billion.
[quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.[/p][/quote]Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.[/p][/quote]and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt[/p][/quote]That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted.[/p][/quote]sorry you need to educate yourself the Governments own figures show that Cameron has borrowed more in 3 years than Labour did in 13, ( see the Times & Guardian) and the reason is set out by the institute of fiscal studies, simply put the Tories sucked demand out of the economy , tax revenues fell and they had to borrow more, to keep the UK a float, their promise to pay off the deficit will not be kept, that’s why they looking to cut more and more. Tosh will not do, the facts , however Facts Will. The recovery is built on record personal debt and huge tax payers loans to banks to pump cheap money into the mortgage market that’s what caused the crash in 2008, the Tories always make things worse with their neo liberal far right monetarist failed dogma, which always cost the country and the poor pay the price, while Dave soaks the rich with tax breaks.[/p][/quote]See article, I am always happy to educate > George Osborne's claims to be prudent with the nation's finances have been brutally undermined by the fact he has added more to Britain's £1.2 trillion debt pile in his three years as Chancellor than Labour did in thirteen. The latest economic figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that the coalition has borrowed £430.072 billion, whereas the last Labour government managed to borrow just £429.975 billion. Nig

12:30pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Nig says...

Osborne Debt £417 Billion in 3 YEARS , what a joke this lot are and Austerity forever
Osborne Debt £417 Billion in 3 YEARS , what a joke this lot are and Austerity forever Nig

12:31pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Nig says...

Nig wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Nig wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country.

There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike.

Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.
the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.
Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.
and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt
That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted.
sorry you need to educate yourself the Governments own figures show that Cameron has borrowed more in 3 years than Labour did in 13, ( see the Times & Guardian) and the reason is set out by the institute of fiscal studies, simply put the Tories sucked demand out of the economy , tax revenues fell and they had to borrow more, to keep the UK a float, their promise to pay off the deficit will not be kept, that’s why they looking to cut more and more. Tosh will not do, the facts , however Facts Will.
The recovery is built on record personal debt and huge tax payers loans to banks to pump cheap money into the mortgage market that’s what caused the crash in 2008, the Tories always make things worse with their neo liberal far right monetarist failed dogma, which always cost the country and the poor pay the price, while Dave soaks the rich with tax breaks.
ee article, I am always happy to educate > George Osborne's claims to be prudent with the nation's finances have been brutally undermined by the fact he has added more to Britain's £1.2 trillion debt pile in his three years as Chancellor than Labour did in thirteen.

The latest economic figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that the coalition has borrowed £430.072 billion, whereas the last Labour government managed to borrow just £429.975 billion.
[quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Nig[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The fact that a donkey with a red rosette could get elected in Wales shows that there is clearly something wrong with democracy in this country. There is clearly more to it than simple ignorance on the part of these voters. Perhaps its a simple case of people voting in their best interests for the party most likely to support a benefit-dependant underclass. It may simply be family members with long memories who have yet to forgive the conservative party for breaking the union stranglehold on the country during the miner's strike. Whatever the case may be, it cannot be democratic for a representative of the people to be elected based purely on the colour of their tie with no recourse to the individuals concerned, their past conduct or their policies.[/p][/quote]the Tories will not break the strangle hold the Bankers have on this country. The Bankers have taken the UK to economic ruin, and cost the country far more than trade unions ever did , the crash was caused by corrupt bankers , imagine if the trade unions had caused a Global crash, Cameron would be legislating to take power from them , however he is in the pockets of the banks , it Osborne who was running around Europe fight to keep bankers bounces , who get 4x their annual salary in bounces , when their banks don;t even make a profit , can you imagine a worker failing and getting rewarded for it , by getting 4x their salary, the government has given the banks £380 Billion pounds of tax payers money and the banks keep breaking the law , fixing the libour rate, mis selling products , winding small business, not a day goes by without the banks being caught out and Cameron DOES NOTHING , as he paid for by the banks and for bankers , after all the Tory party has over 100 ex bankers as sitting MPs plus they get a majority of their funds from the city.[/p][/quote]Wasn't Liam ('there's no money left') Byrne a banker before becoming Labour Chief Sec to the Treasury? And didn't Gordon Brown hoover up vast quantities of dosh from City institutions in tax and squander it on ensuring that he had plenty of Labour voters at the next election? If you are looking for honest politicians you are going to have to mine a lot deeper than any of that lot.[/p][/quote]and Dave and George have borrowed twice the amount labour did , in only 3 years and deficit is no smaller , the cost failure is very expense, hence the cuts and all this eye watering borrowing , saddling our young with all this debt[/p][/quote]That's tosh. The country was borrowed up to the hilt and when the current lot took over just the cost of servicing Labour's debt and increases in the public sector pay bill which Brown had racked up was always going to be tough with the EU states dropping like flies. I'm not the biggest fan of Cameron but accept he's being held back by spineless Clegg but they've done well to return one of the few western countries to growth. Labour will always leave power when they've spent everyone else's money as Byrne himself admitted.[/p][/quote]sorry you need to educate yourself the Governments own figures show that Cameron has borrowed more in 3 years than Labour did in 13, ( see the Times & Guardian) and the reason is set out by the institute of fiscal studies, simply put the Tories sucked demand out of the economy , tax revenues fell and they had to borrow more, to keep the UK a float, their promise to pay off the deficit will not be kept, that’s why they looking to cut more and more. Tosh will not do, the facts , however Facts Will. The recovery is built on record personal debt and huge tax payers loans to banks to pump cheap money into the mortgage market that’s what caused the crash in 2008, the Tories always make things worse with their neo liberal far right monetarist failed dogma, which always cost the country and the poor pay the price, while Dave soaks the rich with tax breaks.[/p][/quote]ee article, I am always happy to educate > George Osborne's claims to be prudent with the nation's finances have been brutally undermined by the fact he has added more to Britain's £1.2 trillion debt pile in his three years as Chancellor than Labour did in thirteen. The latest economic figures from the Office for National Statistics showed that the coalition has borrowed £430.072 billion, whereas the last Labour government managed to borrow just £429.975 billion. Nig

12:40pm Mon 16 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

I have posted elsewhere to explain the difference in the borrowing incurred by the current Government and the previous labour one, particularly under Gordon Brown.

The borrowing under labour occcurred during a period of sustained growth, at a time when Governemtn spending should have been running at a surplus. As a result of this borrowing, there was no money available to feed into the system during the downturn, meaning further borrowing was necessary.

Rather than saving for a rainy day, the laour government instead took out loans to pay for luxuries we didn't really need and as such THEY are the ones who should be blamed for the drastic financial measures that have had to be taken in recent years.
I have posted elsewhere to explain the difference in the borrowing incurred by the current Government and the previous labour one, particularly under Gordon Brown. The borrowing under labour occcurred during a period of sustained growth, at a time when Governemtn spending should have been running at a surplus. As a result of this borrowing, there was no money available to feed into the system during the downturn, meaning further borrowing was necessary. Rather than saving for a rainy day, the laour government instead took out loans to pay for luxuries we didn't really need and as such THEY are the ones who should be blamed for the drastic financial measures that have had to be taken in recent years. _Bryan_

1:23pm Mon 16 Dec 13

BassalegCountyFan says...

county mad wrote:
Its the frustration of being unrepresented by closed minds driven by the politics of envy,the labour pparty has in 4 administrstions since 1945 wrecked the economy with reckless abandon,and still people cannot see the damage it does to their living standards and their childrens future. The hoary old tales ,"Churchill shot the minersSo what about the Labour government of 1945 establishing the National Health Service, clearing slums and building hundreds of thousands of new council homes, bringing about the welfare state. Was that all 'reckless abandon'.

If you want to talk about 'wrecking the economy' look no further than Thatcher. Her governments are the primary reason we no longer make anything in Britain and their reckless, ideological obsession with privatisation is the reason we no longer own any of our own utilities.

Myself and the majority of voters in South Wales vote for Labour because - for all the flaws of the Blair years in failing to reverse Thatcherism - it is still the party that best represents the interests of ordinary people.
Gideon Osbourne, Ian Hereditary Mansion Duncan Smith and co wouldn't know an ordinary person's concerns if they came up and bit them on the back side.
[quote][p][bold]county mad[/bold] wrote: Its the frustration of being unrepresented by closed minds driven by the politics of envy,the labour pparty has in 4 administrstions since 1945 wrecked the economy with reckless abandon,and still people cannot see the damage it does to their living standards and their childrens future. The hoary old tales ,"Churchill shot the minersSo what about the Labour government of 1945 establishing the National Health Service, clearing slums and building hundreds of thousands of new council homes, bringing about the welfare state. Was that all 'reckless abandon'. If you want to talk about 'wrecking the economy' look no further than Thatcher. Her governments are the primary reason we no longer make anything in Britain and their reckless, ideological obsession with privatisation is the reason we no longer own any of our own utilities. Myself and the majority of voters in South Wales vote for Labour because - for all the flaws of the Blair years in failing to reverse Thatcherism - it is still the party that best represents the interests of ordinary people. Gideon Osbourne, Ian Hereditary Mansion Duncan Smith and co wouldn't know an ordinary person's concerns if they came up and bit them on the back side. BassalegCountyFan

1:47pm Mon 16 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

This country wasn't manufacturing anything long before Thatcher was elected. Of course, that was mainly due to the ironically named "industrial action" when the only question would be which union's turn it was to bring the country grinding to a halt.

There was a very good reason Britain was viewed as the "sick old man of Europe" and was a laughing stock worldwide. Thatcherite policies were inevitably unpopular in some quarters, but it is largely thanks to them that this country has any industry whatsoever.
This country wasn't manufacturing anything long before Thatcher was elected. Of course, that was mainly due to the ironically named "industrial action" when the only question would be which union's turn it was to bring the country grinding to a halt. There was a very good reason Britain was viewed as the "sick old man of Europe" and was a laughing stock worldwide. Thatcherite policies were inevitably unpopular in some quarters, but it is largely thanks to them that this country has any industry whatsoever. _Bryan_

2:39pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

BassalegCountyFan wrote:
county mad wrote:
Its the frustration of being unrepresented by closed minds driven by the politics of envy,the labour pparty has in 4 administrstions since 1945 wrecked the economy with reckless abandon,and still people cannot see the damage it does to their living standards and their childrens future. The hoary old tales ,"Churchill shot the minersSo what about the Labour government of 1945 establishing the National Health Service, clearing slums and building hundreds of thousands of new council homes, bringing about the welfare state. Was that all 'reckless abandon'.

If you want to talk about 'wrecking the economy' look no further than Thatcher. Her governments are the primary reason we no longer make anything in Britain and their reckless, ideological obsession with privatisation is the reason we no longer own any of our own utilities.

Myself and the majority of voters in South Wales vote for Labour because - for all the flaws of the Blair years in failing to reverse Thatcherism - it is still the party that best represents the interests of ordinary people.
Gideon Osbourne, Ian Hereditary Mansion Duncan Smith and co wouldn't know an ordinary person's concerns if they came up and bit them on the back side.'Gideon Osbourne, Ian Hereditary Mansion Duncan Smith and co wouldn't know an ordinary person's concerns if they came up and bit them on the back side.'

And the millionaires Blair, Balls, Cooper, Hilary Benn, Vaz, Mandleson, Baroness Scotland, Milleband, Byrne, Jowell are all fully conversant with life in the valleys on minimum wage. Not.
[quote][p][bold]BassalegCountyFan[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]county mad[/bold] wrote: Its the frustration of being unrepresented by closed minds driven by the politics of envy,the labour pparty has in 4 administrstions since 1945 wrecked the economy with reckless abandon,and still people cannot see the damage it does to their living standards and their childrens future. The hoary old tales ,"Churchill shot the minersSo what about the Labour government of 1945 establishing the National Health Service, clearing slums and building hundreds of thousands of new council homes, bringing about the welfare state. Was that all 'reckless abandon'. If you want to talk about 'wrecking the economy' look no further than Thatcher. Her governments are the primary reason we no longer make anything in Britain and their reckless, ideological obsession with privatisation is the reason we no longer own any of our own utilities. Myself and the majority of voters in South Wales vote for Labour because - for all the flaws of the Blair years in failing to reverse Thatcherism - it is still the party that best represents the interests of ordinary people. Gideon Osbourne, Ian Hereditary Mansion Duncan Smith and co wouldn't know an ordinary person's concerns if they came up and bit them on the back side.[/p][/quote]'Gideon Osbourne, Ian Hereditary Mansion Duncan Smith and co wouldn't know an ordinary person's concerns if they came up and bit them on the back side.' And the millionaires Blair, Balls, Cooper, Hilary Benn, Vaz, Mandleson, Baroness Scotland, Milleband, Byrne, Jowell are all fully conversant with life in the valleys on minimum wage. Not. Llanmartinangel

3:09pm Mon 16 Dec 13

BassalegCountyFan says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
This country wasn't manufacturing anything long before Thatcher was elected. Of course, that was mainly due to the ironically named "industrial actionBryan, that is simply not true.
I accept that the process of decline in British (and indeed Western) heavy industry had begun before Thatcher - but instead of trying to reverse this decline, her government' relished in it, realising that the end of British industry was a hammer blow to the long, noble tradition of British working class politics. Even she knew that the disputes of the 1970's were far more to do with the stubbornness of British industry bosses to negotiate with unions (you only have to look at the German economy since the war to see what can be done when bosses listen to their workforce's needs) but gained political capital by demonising the unions.

The rapid decline of British steelmaking, shipbuilding and coalmining on Thatcher's watch is the reason that areas like South Wales, the North East and Yorkshire are areas of large-scale unemployment that are still suffering
- it's no surprise that the gradual decline of Newport high street coincided with the gradual decline of Llanwern Steelworks for example.

Meanwhile the legacy of her archaic anti-union legislation can be seen in the rise of zero-hours and part time contracts, and what amounts to legal industrial blackmail by employers (as seen at Grangemouth in Scotland).
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: This country wasn't manufacturing anything long before Thatcher was elected. Of course, that was mainly due to the ironically named "industrial actionBryan, that is simply not true. I accept that the process of decline in British (and indeed Western) heavy industry had begun before Thatcher - but instead of trying to reverse this decline, her government' relished in it, realising that the end of British industry was a hammer blow to the long, noble tradition of British working class politics. Even she knew that the disputes of the 1970's were far more to do with the stubbornness of British industry bosses to negotiate with unions (you only have to look at the German economy since the war to see what can be done when bosses listen to their workforce's needs) but gained political capital by demonising the unions. The rapid decline of British steelmaking, shipbuilding and coalmining on Thatcher's watch is the reason that areas like South Wales, the North East and Yorkshire are areas of large-scale unemployment that are still suffering - it's no surprise that the gradual decline of Newport high street coincided with the gradual decline of Llanwern Steelworks for example. Meanwhile the legacy of her archaic anti-union legislation can be seen in the rise of zero-hours and part time contracts, and what amounts to legal industrial blackmail by employers (as seen at Grangemouth in Scotland). BassalegCountyFan

3:30pm Mon 16 Dec 13

BassalegCountyFan says...

Llanmartin - I absolutely accept your point about the millionaires you mention and it seems part of a wider and troubling problem with British society- we need more people from working-class backgrounds in politics.

However, what distinguishes the individuals you mention - with the exception of closet tories mandelson and blair!- from the current tory government is that they have entered politics to side with ordinary people, rather than the wealthy.

For example, although Ed M is by no means hard-up, he has shown an awareness of what matters to people who are struggling to make ends meet - as seen in his commitment to freeze rising energy prices. I'm not suggesting that he or any of the other shadow cabinet members are perfect - but in becoming a Labour Party member they are committed to a progressive agenda and will be judged on whether they adhere to this.

The energy prices policy caught the tories off guard because they simply don't think in these terms - so far their plans for 'deficit reduction' have targeted those on low incomes, while millionaires have received a handy tax break. For example, their boasts of an economic 'recovery' could not be more alien to people in South Wales, the North, the Midlands or Scotland.

I don't dislike Osborne and Cameron because they're posh (one of my heroes, Tony Benn, could be described as posh) - or even just because they're tories - but because they commit themselves to the preservation of privilege and the interests of a wealthy elite over the majority of British people.
Llanmartin - I absolutely accept your point about the millionaires you mention and it seems part of a wider and troubling problem with British society- we need more people from working-class backgrounds in politics. However, what distinguishes the individuals you mention - with the exception of closet tories mandelson and blair!- from the current tory government is that they have entered politics to side with ordinary people, rather than the wealthy. For example, although Ed M is by no means hard-up, he has shown an awareness of what matters to people who are struggling to make ends meet - as seen in his commitment to freeze rising energy prices. I'm not suggesting that he or any of the other shadow cabinet members are perfect - but in becoming a Labour Party member they are committed to a progressive agenda and will be judged on whether they adhere to this. The energy prices policy caught the tories off guard because they simply don't think in these terms - so far their plans for 'deficit reduction' have targeted those on low incomes, while millionaires have received a handy tax break. For example, their boasts of an economic 'recovery' could not be more alien to people in South Wales, the North, the Midlands or Scotland. I don't dislike Osborne and Cameron because they're posh (one of my heroes, Tony Benn, could be described as posh) - or even just because they're tories - but because they commit themselves to the preservation of privilege and the interests of a wealthy elite over the majority of British people. BassalegCountyFan

5:14pm Mon 16 Dec 13

Llanmartinangel says...

BassalegCountyFan wrote:
Llanmartin - I absolutely accept your point about the millionaires you mention and it seems part of a wider and troubling problem with British society- we need more people from working-class backgrounds in politics.

However, what distinguishes the individuals you mention - with the exception of closet tories mandelson and blair!- from the current tory government is that they have entered politics to side with ordinary people, rather than the wealthy.

For example, although Ed M is by no means hard-up, he has shown an awareness of what matters to people who are struggling to make ends meet - as seen in his commitment to freeze rising energy prices. I'm not suggesting that he or any of the other shadow cabinet members are perfect - but in becoming a Labour Party member they are committed to a progressive agenda and will be judged on whether they adhere to this.

The energy prices policy caught the tories off guard because they simply don't think in these terms - so far their plans for 'deficit reduction' have targeted those on low incomes, while millionaires have received a handy tax break. For example, their boasts of an economic 'recovery' could not be more alien to people in South Wales, the North, the Midlands or Scotland.

I don't dislike Osborne and Cameron because they're posh (one of my heroes, Tony Benn, could be described as posh) - or even just because they're tories - but because they commit themselves to the preservation of privilege and the interests of a wealthy elite over the majority of British people.
Good post BCF but I would argue that Ed M is as big a part of the problem as anyone else. For a start he is an academic professional politician. He was placed by a union block vote, which is about as insane an idea as that of selecting any Tory. The unions are an out-dated concept representing less than 20% of the people who work and pretty much no-one else. When they did hold sway back in the seventies, they guaranteed Thatcher a landslide by showing their contempt for ordinary people by wrecking the economy (it's when I switched from Labour to Tory and for a council hose boy who left school with nothing that was a big deal). As for Ed's big idea on energy prices well (a) it might just as easily have come from a researcher and (b) will probably not work. I wouldn't argue however that the energy market is broken. As for 'privilege', I'd say aspiration. I hold the belief that without incentive and the reward of innovation we are all sunk. Finally, having people who have held a real job as MPs is all well and good as long as it's every kind of job. It's no good having the Commons stuffed full with miners or shipyard workers who have no clue about how other aspects of life work.
[quote][p][bold]BassalegCountyFan[/bold] wrote: Llanmartin - I absolutely accept your point about the millionaires you mention and it seems part of a wider and troubling problem with British society- we need more people from working-class backgrounds in politics. However, what distinguishes the individuals you mention - with the exception of closet tories mandelson and blair!- from the current tory government is that they have entered politics to side with ordinary people, rather than the wealthy. For example, although Ed M is by no means hard-up, he has shown an awareness of what matters to people who are struggling to make ends meet - as seen in his commitment to freeze rising energy prices. I'm not suggesting that he or any of the other shadow cabinet members are perfect - but in becoming a Labour Party member they are committed to a progressive agenda and will be judged on whether they adhere to this. The energy prices policy caught the tories off guard because they simply don't think in these terms - so far their plans for 'deficit reduction' have targeted those on low incomes, while millionaires have received a handy tax break. For example, their boasts of an economic 'recovery' could not be more alien to people in South Wales, the North, the Midlands or Scotland. I don't dislike Osborne and Cameron because they're posh (one of my heroes, Tony Benn, could be described as posh) - or even just because they're tories - but because they commit themselves to the preservation of privilege and the interests of a wealthy elite over the majority of British people.[/p][/quote]Good post BCF but I would argue that Ed M is as big a part of the problem as anyone else. For a start he is an academic professional politician. He was placed by a union block vote, which is about as insane an idea as that of selecting any Tory. The unions are an out-dated concept representing less than 20% of the people who work and pretty much no-one else. When they did hold sway back in the seventies, they guaranteed Thatcher a landslide by showing their contempt for ordinary people by wrecking the economy (it's when I switched from Labour to Tory and for a council hose boy who left school with nothing that was a big deal). As for Ed's big idea on energy prices well (a) it might just as easily have come from a researcher and (b) will probably not work. I wouldn't argue however that the energy market is broken. As for 'privilege', I'd say aspiration. I hold the belief that without incentive and the reward of innovation we are all sunk. Finally, having people who have held a real job as MPs is all well and good as long as it's every kind of job. It's no good having the Commons stuffed full with miners or shipyard workers who have no clue about how other aspects of life work. Llanmartinangel

7:13pm Mon 16 Dec 13

endthelies says...

BassalegCountyFan wrote:
Llanmartin - I absolutely accept your point about the millionaires you mention and it seems part of a wider and troubling problem with British society- we need more people from working-class backgrounds in politics.

However, what distinguishes the individuals you mention - with the exception of closet tories mandelson and blair!- from the current tory government is that they have entered politics to side with ordinary people, rather than the wealthy.

For example, although Ed M is by no means hard-up, he has shown an awareness of what matters to people who are struggling to make ends meet - as seen in his commitment to freeze rising energy prices. I'm not suggesting that he or any of the other shadow cabinet members are perfect - but in becoming a Labour Party member they are committed to a progressive agenda and will be judged on whether they adhere to this.

The energy prices policy caught the tories off guard because they simply don't think in these terms - so far their plans for 'deficit reduction' have targeted those on low incomes, while millionaires have received a handy tax break. For example, their boasts of an economic 'recovery' could not be more alien to people in South Wales, the North, the Midlands or Scotland.

I don't dislike Osborne and Cameron because they're posh (one of my heroes, Tony Benn, could be described as posh) - or even just because they're tories - but because they commit themselves to the preservation of privilege and the interests of a wealthy elite over the majority of British people.
Great post bcf and all very true.
[quote][p][bold]BassalegCountyFan[/bold] wrote: Llanmartin - I absolutely accept your point about the millionaires you mention and it seems part of a wider and troubling problem with British society- we need more people from working-class backgrounds in politics. However, what distinguishes the individuals you mention - with the exception of closet tories mandelson and blair!- from the current tory government is that they have entered politics to side with ordinary people, rather than the wealthy. For example, although Ed M is by no means hard-up, he has shown an awareness of what matters to people who are struggling to make ends meet - as seen in his commitment to freeze rising energy prices. I'm not suggesting that he or any of the other shadow cabinet members are perfect - but in becoming a Labour Party member they are committed to a progressive agenda and will be judged on whether they adhere to this. The energy prices policy caught the tories off guard because they simply don't think in these terms - so far their plans for 'deficit reduction' have targeted those on low incomes, while millionaires have received a handy tax break. For example, their boasts of an economic 'recovery' could not be more alien to people in South Wales, the North, the Midlands or Scotland. I don't dislike Osborne and Cameron because they're posh (one of my heroes, Tony Benn, could be described as posh) - or even just because they're tories - but because they commit themselves to the preservation of privilege and the interests of a wealthy elite over the majority of British people.[/p][/quote]Great post bcf and all very true. endthelies

9:41am Tue 17 Dec 13

DavidMclean says...

I really can't decide whether it's hilarious or depressing that so many people actually believe there is any fundamental difference between Labour and the Tories and also still stick so loyalty to the idea of voting for the rosette they've always voted for.

The idea that 'I've always voted Labour/Tory and will continue to vote Labour/Tory" is the great betrayal of democracy. It shows that the voter - unwilling or unable to look beyond the colour of the rosette - and treats politics in the same way a football fan supports their team.

The situation takes on an element of the surreal when those very same people fire off shots at each other for doing just this. "If only people didn't keep voting Labour/Tory". In other words "If only people stopped supporting different football teams to me."

Partisan voting in endemic. It always has been and it always will be. It's based on arrogance and a fear of admitting, even to oneself, that you might actually be backing the wrong horse. This becomes evident by peoples' steadfast refusal to even consider alternatives. The idea that other politicians/parties should be considered as alternatives is almost always dismissed out of hand and instantly by the 'Rosette Voter'. Does anyone really bother to check whether the Greens, Plaid Cymru, The Peoples' Front of Judea have anything to offer? No. It's simply 'my chosen team or nothing.'

So keep up the party loyalty folks. The more you do it, the more things will stay the same. Just do us a favour and try and keep the volume down with blaming the other guys when you're equally as guilty yourself.
I really can't decide whether it's hilarious or depressing that so many people actually believe there is any fundamental difference between Labour and the Tories and also still stick so loyalty to the idea of voting for the rosette they've always voted for. The idea that 'I've always voted Labour/Tory and will continue to vote Labour/Tory" is the great betrayal of democracy. It shows that the voter - unwilling or unable to look beyond the colour of the rosette - and treats politics in the same way a football fan supports their team. The situation takes on an element of the surreal when those very same people fire off shots at each other for doing just this. "If only people didn't keep voting Labour/Tory". In other words "If only people stopped supporting different football teams to me." Partisan voting in endemic. It always has been and it always will be. It's based on arrogance and a fear of admitting, even to oneself, that you might actually be backing the wrong horse. This becomes evident by peoples' steadfast refusal to even consider alternatives. The idea that other politicians/parties should be considered as alternatives is almost always dismissed out of hand and instantly by the 'Rosette Voter'. Does anyone really bother to check whether the Greens, Plaid Cymru, The Peoples' Front of Judea have anything to offer? No. It's simply 'my chosen team or nothing.' So keep up the party loyalty folks. The more you do it, the more things will stay the same. Just do us a favour and try and keep the volume down with blaming the other guys when you're equally as guilty yourself. DavidMclean

11:47pm Tue 17 Dec 13

scraptheWAG says...

it does make me laugh the old red rosette brigade under labour council tax doubled under labour they flooded the country with millions of eastern european labour letting large employers like tesco and asda warehouse drop their wages (hardly helping the working classes)

You only have to see what they are doing in wales how many times have we seen that fat bag of wind jones say wales problems are down to underfunding from westminster it was the same day he earmarked another 5 million for welsh language tripe.
it does make me laugh the old red rosette brigade under labour council tax doubled under labour they flooded the country with millions of eastern european labour letting large employers like tesco and asda warehouse drop their wages (hardly helping the working classes) You only have to see what they are doing in wales how many times have we seen that fat bag of wind jones say wales problems are down to underfunding from westminster it was the same day he earmarked another 5 million for welsh language tripe. scraptheWAG

8:16am Wed 18 Dec 13

pwlldu says...

Labour idea is to keep the uneducated masses down. That is why Labour fudges issues with half baked comments and scare mongering. The tabloid reader is where they take their advise from. Labour candidates only need to win 30% -40% of the vote which include postal votes to win. While hoping for low turnouts to affect the floating voter.
Labour idea is to keep the uneducated masses down. That is why Labour fudges issues with half baked comments and scare mongering. The tabloid reader is where they take their advise from. Labour candidates only need to win 30% -40% of the vote which include postal votes to win. While hoping for low turnouts to affect the floating voter. pwlldu

9:23am Wed 18 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

If it is true that the poor, uneducated and those living on benefits are more likely to vote labour, then surely it is in labour's interests to ensure that a majority of people are poor, uneducated or living on benefits.

By the same token, if the rich and well educated are more likely to vote Tory, surely it is in tory interests to raise the standard of education and wealth levels of the general population.
If it is true that the poor, uneducated and those living on benefits are more likely to vote labour, then surely it is in labour's interests to ensure that a majority of people are poor, uneducated or living on benefits. By the same token, if the rich and well educated are more likely to vote Tory, surely it is in tory interests to raise the standard of education and wealth levels of the general population. _Bryan_

11:00am Thu 19 Dec 13

Anne teak says...

I'd like to vote for the donkey.
I'd like to vote for the donkey. Anne teak

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