Language waste

First published in Letters

OBVIOUSLY, the great majority of Welsh citizens who use English as their first language want Wales to prosper and succeed in industry, jobs, sport, tourism, public services, etc. So why are millions spent forcing the ancient Welsh language on our struggling country? This month, S4C TV has gifted (from our TV licence fee?) a “grant” of £56,000.00 to Bangor University for new Welsh language computer facilities – “to ensure the (antique) language flourishes in the 21st century” – according to First Minster, Carwyn Jones who is enjoying a trip to Africa. I wonder if advanced and progressive countries using English as the first language would entertain this costly waste of public money. Would Australia impose the Aborigine language on the majority (and road signs?), would New Zealand force the Maori language of the majority of English speakers, and the USA. force the Red Indian language on the massive English speaking population? Is there a fiendish plot to split Wales, penalising and jeopardising the future of English speaking Welsh citizens, especially our prospective young talent!?

Brian Donovan Darlington Court Newport

Comments (88)

Please log in to enable comment sorting

12:51pm Fri 10 Jan 14

Gareth says...

You had me right up until "Red Indian language."

I've never heard of it, so I looked it up.

Did you know that there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans, but not one of them is Red Indian? In fact, there seems to be NO variation of Indian spoken (blue, green, red...none!) in America.

And if you find that shocking, you'll be aghast at the fact that not even Indians - y'know, the people from India - don't speak a language called Indian!

Brian, the Welsh language debate is a serious one, and many of its players are serious people. If you truly want your opinion to be heard, respected and acted upon, then the facts on which you base your opinion should also be serious.
You had me right up until "Red Indian language." I've never heard of it, so I looked it up. Did you know that there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans, but not one of them is Red Indian? In fact, there seems to be NO variation of Indian spoken (blue, green, red...none!) in America. And if you find that shocking, you'll be aghast at the fact that not even Indians - y'know, the people from India - don't speak a language called Indian! Brian, the Welsh language debate is a serious one, and many of its players are serious people. If you truly want your opinion to be heard, respected and acted upon, then the facts on which you base your opinion should also be serious. Gareth
  • Score: 11

1:21pm Fri 10 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Here we go again!
Here we go again! Banjalucka
  • Score: -5

1:58pm Fri 10 Jan 14

_Bryan_ says...

"there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans"

How many of those languages have ridiculous amounts of public money spent on them and are any of the associated districts legally required to provide dual language signage, telephone access or internet sites?
"there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans" How many of those languages have ridiculous amounts of public money spent on them and are any of the associated districts legally required to provide dual language signage, telephone access or internet sites? _Bryan_
  • Score: 14

2:14pm Fri 10 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

It is scary though that on yet another day of horrific news re the Welsh NHS (diagnostic tests, you know, those things that detect cancers, are falling way behind England), the WAG go on their merry way throwing millions at this medieval tripe. I don't argue with anyone's right to speak or learn it but prioritise public money for Christ's sake.
It is scary though that on yet another day of horrific news re the Welsh NHS (diagnostic tests, you know, those things that detect cancers, are falling way behind England), the WAG go on their merry way throwing millions at this medieval tripe. I don't argue with anyone's right to speak or learn it but prioritise public money for Christ's sake. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 40

3:35pm Fri 10 Jan 14

welshmen says...

Stop ALL Language translations in Wales across the Board, until the Welsh NHS is up to the standard required, then re-introduce the Welsh Language only....
Stop ALL Language translations in Wales across the Board, until the Welsh NHS is up to the standard required, then re-introduce the Welsh Language only.... welshmen
  • Score: 13

5:08pm Fri 10 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.
Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's. Mervyn James
  • Score: -20

5:19pm Fri 10 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Yes here we go again with the Welshies coming in all guns ablazing!
Yes here we go again with the Welshies coming in all guns ablazing! Banjalucka
  • Score: 12

6:05pm Fri 10 Jan 14

dailoco says...

Once again the old cherry has surfaced . This Immotive subject will never be put to rest.we have the for. ie., the minority being served by the gas plant in Cardiff bay mainly against the ground swell of opinions from the majority.
As it has been pointed out that the Welsh NHS is cash strapped, the money that is thrown at the Welsh Laguage would go some way to help. Plus could anyone out there tell the rest of us how much is wasted on Welsh Forms,signs and all other items we could axe for the said health service.
Once again the old cherry has surfaced . This Immotive subject will never be put to rest.we have the for. ie., the minority being served by the gas plant in Cardiff bay mainly against the ground swell of opinions from the majority. As it has been pointed out that the Welsh NHS is cash strapped, the money that is thrown at the Welsh Laguage would go some way to help. Plus could anyone out there tell the rest of us how much is wasted on Welsh Forms,signs and all other items we could axe for the said health service. dailoco
  • Score: 22

7:51pm Fri 10 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets.

The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity.
I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets. The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity. scraptheWAG
  • Score: 16

7:53pm Fri 10 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

and why £56,000 a pc only costs £1000 at most and thats for a apple mac so are they buying 56,000 computers what are they spending it on??
and why £56,000 a pc only costs £1000 at most and thats for a apple mac so are they buying 56,000 computers what are they spending it on?? scraptheWAG
  • Score: 14

9:21pm Fri 10 Jan 14

endthelies says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets.

The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity.
People vote labour because they hate the Tories. Its simple really. No need to scratch your head over it.
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets. The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity.[/p][/quote]People vote labour because they hate the Tories. Its simple really. No need to scratch your head over it. endthelies
  • Score: -5

4:13am Sat 11 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

endthelies wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets.

The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity.
People vote labour because they hate the Tories. Its simple really. No need to scratch your head over it.
they could not do any worse than labour
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets. The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity.[/p][/quote]People vote labour because they hate the Tories. Its simple really. No need to scratch your head over it.[/p][/quote]they could not do any worse than labour scraptheWAG
  • Score: 10

8:16am Sat 11 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.
The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.[/p][/quote]The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 35

9:49am Sat 11 Jan 14

dailoco says...

O ! so we are Welsh language fascists to ask what is being spent on what is now nothing more than a hobby language . I have ask on numerous occasions what is spent on said language and if we ever get a straight answer ( which I dought ) only then can this subject be put to rest.
O ! so we are Welsh language fascists to ask what is being spent on what is now nothing more than a hobby language . I have ask on numerous occasions what is spent on said language and if we ever get a straight answer ( which I dought ) only then can this subject be put to rest. dailoco
  • Score: 12

11:52am Sat 11 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.
The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved.
What they 'save' on eradicating welsh,will be spent on Urdu/Bengali or Polish a the NHS, huge amounts are being spent now, as was £200,000 alone spent recently by Gwent police to translate migrants...... multiply that across Wales, the cost is staggering...... The money goes NOT on English access, or even health services, but on translating other languages for foreign patients to avail themselves of an NHS on its knees already.

Why attack welsh without highlighting the fact these other languages have equal right too ? Chicken ? It seems we are ever willing to attack our own people, local cultures and traditions, and even religious belief, so long as we protect those rights for others... CRAZY. If commentators who despise welsh want a cause, they know where to look, but HR laws has ensured they have no other target to go at, most unfair. And the Assembly is bound as are everyone else by the LAW. Give it a rest.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.[/p][/quote]The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved.[/p][/quote]What they 'save' on eradicating welsh,will be spent on Urdu/Bengali or Polish a the NHS, huge amounts are being spent now, as was £200,000 alone spent recently by Gwent police to translate migrants...... multiply that across Wales, the cost is staggering...... The money goes NOT on English access, or even health services, but on translating other languages for foreign patients to avail themselves of an NHS on its knees already. Why attack welsh without highlighting the fact these other languages have equal right too ? Chicken ? It seems we are ever willing to attack our own people, local cultures and traditions, and even religious belief, so long as we protect those rights for others... CRAZY. If commentators who despise welsh want a cause, they know where to look, but HR laws has ensured they have no other target to go at, most unfair. And the Assembly is bound as are everyone else by the LAW. Give it a rest. Mervyn James
  • Score: -14

12:46pm Sat 11 Jan 14

blackandamber says...

The NHS spends in excess of £20 million per annum on bi and multi lingual forms and signs. Now anyone who professes to be a regular Welsh speaker
or any other minority language speaker in this country, and is a tax payer do you honestly, hand on heart think this is money well spent
The NHS spends in excess of £20 million per annum on bi and multi lingual forms and signs. Now anyone who professes to be a regular Welsh speaker or any other minority language speaker in this country, and is a tax payer do you honestly, hand on heart think this is money well spent blackandamber
  • Score: 24

1:12pm Sat 11 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense.
Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense. Banjalucka
  • Score: 21

1:37pm Sat 11 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

Banjalucka wrote:
Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense.
Absolutely right and nationalise the severn bridge and revitalise the towns in wales with all the spare cash. Newport could do with new library and sports centre.
[quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense.[/p][/quote]Absolutely right and nationalise the severn bridge and revitalise the towns in wales with all the spare cash. Newport could do with new library and sports centre. scraptheWAG
  • Score: 16

1:38pm Sat 11 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.
The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved.
What they 'save' on eradicating welsh,will be spent on Urdu/Bengali or Polish a the NHS, huge amounts are being spent now, as was £200,000 alone spent recently by Gwent police to translate migrants...... multiply that across Wales, the cost is staggering...... The money goes NOT on English access, or even health services, but on translating other languages for foreign patients to avail themselves of an NHS on its knees already.

Why attack welsh without highlighting the fact these other languages have equal right too ? Chicken ? It seems we are ever willing to attack our own people, local cultures and traditions, and even religious belief, so long as we protect those rights for others... CRAZY. If commentators who despise welsh want a cause, they know where to look, but HR laws has ensured they have no other target to go at, most unfair. And the Assembly is bound as are everyone else by the LAW. Give it a rest.
I know scrap it all if they are arrested and need an interpretor (many of them don't) and are playing a game they should pay for it
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.[/p][/quote]The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved.[/p][/quote]What they 'save' on eradicating welsh,will be spent on Urdu/Bengali or Polish a the NHS, huge amounts are being spent now, as was £200,000 alone spent recently by Gwent police to translate migrants...... multiply that across Wales, the cost is staggering...... The money goes NOT on English access, or even health services, but on translating other languages for foreign patients to avail themselves of an NHS on its knees already. Why attack welsh without highlighting the fact these other languages have equal right too ? Chicken ? It seems we are ever willing to attack our own people, local cultures and traditions, and even religious belief, so long as we protect those rights for others... CRAZY. If commentators who despise welsh want a cause, they know where to look, but HR laws has ensured they have no other target to go at, most unfair. And the Assembly is bound as are everyone else by the LAW. Give it a rest.[/p][/quote]I know scrap it all if they are arrested and need an interpretor (many of them don't) and are playing a game they should pay for it scraptheWAG
  • Score: 9

3:11pm Sat 11 Jan 14

varteg1 says...

Gareth wrote:
You had me right up until "Red Indian language."

I've never heard of it, so I looked it up.

Did you know that there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans, but not one of them is Red Indian? In fact, there seems to be NO variation of Indian spoken (blue, green, red...none!) in America.

And if you find that shocking, you'll be aghast at the fact that not even Indians - y'know, the people from India - don't speak a language called Indian!

Brian, the Welsh language debate is a serious one, and many of its players are serious people. If you truly want your opinion to be heard, respected and acted upon, then the facts on which you base your opinion should also be serious.
Being a tad pedantic there G.

Maybe the writer is unaware of the need to refer to Native Americans. rather than the cowboy term Red Indians.

As history has shown, whenever a nation state expands to become an empire, it more or less forces it's own language on those it conquers, and usually suppresses.

The Greeks did it, so did the Romans, but they did it by the sword and terror tactics, English never did that, it persuaded by educational methods.

At least not as a direct state policy, what happened in colonial spots was pretty well the pattern of behaviour of administrators in those regions.

Wales, likewise was not forced to take on English, the Welsh themselves were in the main responsible for what happened historically to Cymraeg. They saw the distinct advantage of rejecting their own language in favour of a language that could see their children and families benefit from, whereas Cymraeg offered little benefits, nor does it today.
It represents a begging bowl mentality, plain to see.
[quote][p][bold]Gareth[/bold] wrote: You had me right up until "Red Indian language." I've never heard of it, so I looked it up. Did you know that there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans, but not one of them is Red Indian? In fact, there seems to be NO variation of Indian spoken (blue, green, red...none!) in America. And if you find that shocking, you'll be aghast at the fact that not even Indians - y'know, the people from India - don't speak a language called Indian! Brian, the Welsh language debate is a serious one, and many of its players are serious people. If you truly want your opinion to be heard, respected and acted upon, then the facts on which you base your opinion should also be serious.[/p][/quote]Being a tad pedantic there G. Maybe the writer is unaware of the need to refer to Native Americans. rather than the cowboy term Red Indians. As history has shown, whenever a nation state expands to become an empire, it more or less forces it's own language on those it conquers, and usually suppresses. The Greeks did it, so did the Romans, but they did it by the sword and terror tactics, English never did that, it persuaded by educational methods. At least not as a direct state policy, what happened in colonial spots was pretty well the pattern of behaviour of administrators in those regions. Wales, likewise was not forced to take on English, the Welsh themselves were in the main responsible for what happened historically to Cymraeg. They saw the distinct advantage of rejecting their own language in favour of a language that could see their children and families benefit from, whereas Cymraeg offered little benefits, nor does it today. It represents a begging bowl mentality, plain to see. varteg1
  • Score: 8

4:11pm Sat 11 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.
The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved.
What they 'save' on eradicating welsh,will be spent on Urdu/Bengali or Polish a the NHS, huge amounts are being spent now, as was £200,000 alone spent recently by Gwent police to translate migrants...... multiply that across Wales, the cost is staggering...... The money goes NOT on English access, or even health services, but on translating other languages for foreign patients to avail themselves of an NHS on its knees already.

Why attack welsh without highlighting the fact these other languages have equal right too ? Chicken ? It seems we are ever willing to attack our own people, local cultures and traditions, and even religious belief, so long as we protect those rights for others... CRAZY. If commentators who despise welsh want a cause, they know where to look, but HR laws has ensured they have no other target to go at, most unfair. And the Assembly is bound as are everyone else by the LAW. Give it a rest.
For clarity, I wouldn't provide any translation service in any language. If the mantra of the politicians is. 'Immigrants come here too contribute' then perhaps they can explain how they do that without speaking English. So yes, abolish those AND Welsh translation and plough ever cent saved into frontline health services. Happy now?
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Like most I am of two minds being bored stupid and horrified by the English language fascists, or saddened and annoyed at the constant carping at other people's cultures. It just seems to suggest the English language speaker has gone back to the old ways of "Why doesn't everyone speak English and then shouting at them to enlighten them...in case they didn't understand first time..." With so much happening in the country at this time, facts suggest the welsh language is the least of anyone's worries,and we still won't get a proper NHS if welsh goes forever,nor will we get a better deal from England. The money will just get cut, or wasted elsewhere. There is absolutely no guarantee the cash will be used for what you ask for.... since what's asked, invited the Assembly or even Westminster break the law, you cannot get rid of one language without opening up the issue of banning others, a sure-fire loser. Welsh speakers would be well within rights to link any ban on their access, to a ban on everyone else's.[/p][/quote]The WAG has a budget. Every pound it spends on Welsh is money it can't spend on health. It's that simple. You can't speak any language if you are dead. Why can you not grasp that simple concept? It is nothing to do with how much money Westminster gives Wales. It's all devolved.[/p][/quote]What they 'save' on eradicating welsh,will be spent on Urdu/Bengali or Polish a the NHS, huge amounts are being spent now, as was £200,000 alone spent recently by Gwent police to translate migrants...... multiply that across Wales, the cost is staggering...... The money goes NOT on English access, or even health services, but on translating other languages for foreign patients to avail themselves of an NHS on its knees already. Why attack welsh without highlighting the fact these other languages have equal right too ? Chicken ? It seems we are ever willing to attack our own people, local cultures and traditions, and even religious belief, so long as we protect those rights for others... CRAZY. If commentators who despise welsh want a cause, they know where to look, but HR laws has ensured they have no other target to go at, most unfair. And the Assembly is bound as are everyone else by the LAW. Give it a rest.[/p][/quote]For clarity, I wouldn't provide any translation service in any language. If the mantra of the politicians is. 'Immigrants come here too contribute' then perhaps they can explain how they do that without speaking English. So yes, abolish those AND Welsh translation and plough ever cent saved into frontline health services. Happy now? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 19

8:16pm Sat 11 Jan 14

Cymro i'r Carn says...

Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw?

A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti.
Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw? A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti. Cymro i'r Carn
  • Score: -16

8:44pm Sat 11 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Cymro -That's a show stopper Taff.
Cymro -That's a show stopper Taff. Banjalucka
  • Score: 3

10:27pm Sat 11 Jan 14

blackandamber says...

Banjalucka wrote:
Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense.
You haven't answered my question.
[quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense.[/p][/quote]You haven't answered my question. blackandamber
  • Score: 3

12:52am Sun 12 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

black and amber - Who me? Nothing to do wiuth me pal - NHS?
black and amber - Who me? Nothing to do wiuth me pal - NHS? Banjalucka
  • Score: 3

8:58am Sun 12 Jan 14

Dai Rear says...

endthelies wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets.

The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity.
People vote labour because they hate the Tories. Its simple really. No need to scratch your head over it.
And because they're profoundly stupid
For those like me who can "do" French German and Spanish but not minority stuff here's what it said above, roughly
Carn says the Welshman ...

Very sad. Brian Donovan, how biased and unintelligent are you? Do you really know anything about Wales and have you ever travelled from Newport to any other area of Wales to see that the language is very relevant to the lives of large numbers of the population. If the removal of non Welsh is your priority in life, ma that's what you say about it? And indeed, either in Wales ddyle be? If Do you want to live in a country only, you have not got much choice as Most countries hold more than one language but you've got England. How about you move to a van to live?

And why we have to choose between the NHS or Welsh? What about all the other services that are funded by the Government? I do not want to waste more of our time on eilaid fool like you.
Carn, I fear you're having an "episode" Whilst lack of intelligence is associated with belief in the socialist myth it in no way correlates to ignorance of minority tongues,. In fact many would argue for the opposite correlation.
[quote][p][bold]endthelies[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: I am at a loss why people in wales always vote labour i think it is a benefits thing, they run the nation into the ground whilst lining their own pockets. The WAG spend million upon millions on themselves and tell the thick and gulliable in newport the town they are living in is a absolute dive because of nasty tory cuts. Money that was given to the WAG by westminster to improve the lives of the poorest country in western europe is now all thrown away on stupidity.[/p][/quote]People vote labour because they hate the Tories. Its simple really. No need to scratch your head over it.[/p][/quote]And because they're profoundly stupid For those like me who can "do" French German and Spanish but not minority stuff here's what it said above, roughly Carn says the Welshman ... Very sad. Brian Donovan, how biased and unintelligent are you? Do you really know anything about Wales and have you ever travelled from Newport to any other area of Wales to see that the language is very relevant to the lives of large numbers of the population. If the removal of non Welsh is your priority in life, ma that's what you say about it? And indeed, either in Wales ddyle be? If Do you want to live in a country only, you have not got much choice as Most countries hold more than one language but you've got England. How about you move to a van to live? And why we have to choose between the NHS or Welsh? What about all the other services that are funded by the Government? I do not want to waste more of our time on eilaid fool like you. Carn, I fear you're having an "episode" Whilst lack of intelligence is associated with belief in the socialist myth it in no way correlates to ignorance of minority tongues,. In fact many would argue for the opposite correlation. Dai Rear
  • Score: -6

11:36am Sun 12 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Cymro i'r Carn wrote:
Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw?

A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti.
But that's just the point. A choice IS being made between Welsh and the NHS and the language lobby is winning hands down. The appalling statistics of the Welsh NHS are writ large for all to see. If you don't believe that the £250Million p.a. strewn about by the WAG on language 'stuff' would make a difference to the Welsh NHS then google just how much is owed by each NHS trust here. And don't give me all that 'living language' bananas, if it were 'living' it wouldn't need endless funds to try and keep it off life support and it certainly wouldn't need it's own 'minister' on £104K a year either. No other 'living language' has one.
[quote][p][bold]Cymro i'r Carn[/bold] wrote: Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw? A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti.[/p][/quote]But that's just the point. A choice IS being made between Welsh and the NHS and the language lobby is winning hands down. The appalling statistics of the Welsh NHS are writ large for all to see. If you don't believe that the £250Million p.a. strewn about by the WAG on language 'stuff' would make a difference to the Welsh NHS then google just how much is owed by each NHS trust here. And don't give me all that 'living language' bananas, if it were 'living' it wouldn't need endless funds to try and keep it off life support and it certainly wouldn't need it's own 'minister' on £104K a year either. No other 'living language' has one. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 23

12:59pm Sun 12 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

Cymro i'r Carn wrote:
Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw?

A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti.
i like the vast majority of people living in newport have not got a clue what this gibbirish is
[quote][p][bold]Cymro i'r Carn[/bold] wrote: Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw? A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti.[/p][/quote]i like the vast majority of people living in newport have not got a clue what this gibbirish is scraptheWAG
  • Score: 21

6:07pm Sun 12 Jan 14

blackandamber says...

Nie mogę zrozumieć to słowo, które znaczy.
More than 1.5 million people in this country can understand the sentence above. Less than half a million can understand Welsh.
Nie mogę zrozumieć to słowo, które znaczy. More than 1.5 million people in this country can understand the sentence above. Less than half a million can understand Welsh. blackandamber
  • Score: 10

6:55pm Sun 12 Jan 14

Ollie254 says...

If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction.
If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction. Ollie254
  • Score: 16

7:56pm Sun 12 Jan 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language.

http://www.opendemoc
racy.net/ourkingdom/
evan-harris/home-tru
ths-decline-of-welsh
-language
Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language. http://www.opendemoc racy.net/ourkingdom/ evan-harris/home-tru ths-decline-of-welsh -language GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: 6

10:26pm Sun 12 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

Ollie254 wrote:
If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction.
it should be a pay per view channel like sky sports and we will see once the welsh language gang have to pay for this crap how keen they will be then
[quote][p][bold]Ollie254[/bold] wrote: If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction.[/p][/quote]it should be a pay per view channel like sky sports and we will see once the welsh language gang have to pay for this crap how keen they will be then scraptheWAG
  • Score: 12

9:21am Mon 13 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

blackandamber wrote:
Banjalucka wrote:
Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense.
You haven't answered my question.
If you are asking me to justify welsh language access for the welsh speakers, then I don't have to, it is a right. The negatives are just boring, and obsessed with a language they don't understand anyway. I don't understand Polish, I don't post here every day asking for it to be got rid of, I'd end up in court, it is a pity welsh hasn't the same protection, to stop the bile here.
[quote][p][bold]blackandamber[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Mervyn - all predictable repeats bro. Should be English only, keep the Welsh for cultural stuff, only Eng forms, get rid of WAG (only got it by a few dubious votes on a low turnout), get rid of all the Welsh quangos only there to promote Welsh language. You know it makes sense.[/p][/quote]You haven't answered my question.[/p][/quote]If you are asking me to justify welsh language access for the welsh speakers, then I don't have to, it is a right. The negatives are just boring, and obsessed with a language they don't understand anyway. I don't understand Polish, I don't post here every day asking for it to be got rid of, I'd end up in court, it is a pity welsh hasn't the same protection, to stop the bile here. Mervyn James
  • Score: -7

10:12am Mon 13 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language.

http://www.opendemoc

racy.net/ourkingdom/

evan-harris/home-tru

ths-decline-of-welsh

-language
Good article. But that level of logic and analysis will definitely not appeal to the people who spend our money on it. Far too 'inconvenient'.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language. http://www.opendemoc racy.net/ourkingdom/ evan-harris/home-tru ths-decline-of-welsh -language[/p][/quote]Good article. But that level of logic and analysis will definitely not appeal to the people who spend our money on it. Far too 'inconvenient'. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 10

11:48am Mon 13 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Mervyn - Please stop using words like 'bile' because you don't like other views. Nothing against Welsh being used for culture or private Masonic rituals, but not in day to day living. It's a waste of spce in such a cosmopolitan town.
Mervyn - Please stop using words like 'bile' because you don't like other views. Nothing against Welsh being used for culture or private Masonic rituals, but not in day to day living. It's a waste of spce in such a cosmopolitan town. Banjalucka
  • Score: 10

12:08pm Mon 13 Jan 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language.

http://www.opendemoc


racy.net/ourkingdom/


evan-harris/home-tru


ths-decline-of-welsh


-language
Good article. But that level of logic and analysis will definitely not appeal to the people who spend our money on it. Far too 'inconvenient'.
The Welsh language doesn't really have any intrinsic use apart from being a part of the whole 'Welsh Brand Identity' that gets presented to the world to promote the false idea that we're somehow unique.

Time for it to end.

And Mervyn - beating your children used to be a right, as did owning slaves, or any number of other vile practices. Just because they're rights, doesn't make them right.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language. http://www.opendemoc racy.net/ourkingdom/ evan-harris/home-tru ths-decline-of-welsh -language[/p][/quote]Good article. But that level of logic and analysis will definitely not appeal to the people who spend our money on it. Far too 'inconvenient'.[/p][/quote]The Welsh language doesn't really have any intrinsic use apart from being a part of the whole 'Welsh Brand Identity' that gets presented to the world to promote the false idea that we're somehow unique. Time for it to end. And Mervyn - beating your children used to be a right, as did owning slaves, or any number of other vile practices. Just because they're rights, doesn't make them right. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: 8

12:45pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Gareth says...

varteg1 wrote:
Gareth wrote:
You had me right up until "Red Indian language."

I've never heard of it, so I looked it up.

Did you know that there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans, but not one of them is Red Indian? In fact, there seems to be NO variation of Indian spoken (blue, green, red...none!) in America.

And if you find that shocking, you'll be aghast at the fact that not even Indians - y'know, the people from India - don't speak a language called Indian!

Brian, the Welsh language debate is a serious one, and many of its players are serious people. If you truly want your opinion to be heard, respected and acted upon, then the facts on which you base your opinion should also be serious.
Being a tad pedantic there G.

Maybe the writer is unaware of the need to refer to Native Americans. rather than the cowboy term Red Indians.

As history has shown, whenever a nation state expands to become an empire, it more or less forces it's own language on those it conquers, and usually suppresses.

The Greeks did it, so did the Romans, but they did it by the sword and terror tactics, English never did that, it persuaded by educational methods.

At least not as a direct state policy, what happened in colonial spots was pretty well the pattern of behaviour of administrators in those regions.

Wales, likewise was not forced to take on English, the Welsh themselves were in the main responsible for what happened historically to Cymraeg. They saw the distinct advantage of rejecting their own language in favour of a language that could see their children and families benefit from, whereas Cymraeg offered little benefits, nor does it today.
It represents a begging bowl mentality, plain to see.
Hi V, Sorry it took so long to reply; I got bored with the oh-so-usual boxing matches on here...

I like your post, though I'm not sure of us as nation using the nicely-nicely approach when it came to extending the English language. That said, I will have to bow to your superior knowledge on that one (...though I seem to remember an old law that forced colonies to trade only with the UK, and that trade was conducted through the medium of English?)

The one thing I've enjoyed on here is the idea of forced assimilation into the local culture: when you are in another country, you should respect the native language, culture, and law of the land you are in; and should end up coming to the attention of the police, then you should be forced to pay for a translator.

I think this is a fabulous idea, and so would, I imagine, every police force in every tourist destination around Europe who are unlucky enough to attract Brits.

Imagine these glorious European islands and suntraps being kept local. Gone would be the pandering to those foreigners and their culture.

No more "One Euro a pint during Man Utd game tonight"; no more pictures of chicken nuggets/burger/etc and chips on every walkway; where being served in a cafe, bar or restaurant would involve being able to understand and converse in the local language; ... and where, should you get arrested (or were the victim of a mugging/car accident etc) you'd pay for your own translation into the local language.

For once I agree with some of the angry mob on here. Let's petition for it.
[quote][p][bold]varteg1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Gareth[/bold] wrote: You had me right up until "Red Indian language." I've never heard of it, so I looked it up. Did you know that there are nearly 300 languages spoken north of Mexico by native Americans, but not one of them is Red Indian? In fact, there seems to be NO variation of Indian spoken (blue, green, red...none!) in America. And if you find that shocking, you'll be aghast at the fact that not even Indians - y'know, the people from India - don't speak a language called Indian! Brian, the Welsh language debate is a serious one, and many of its players are serious people. If you truly want your opinion to be heard, respected and acted upon, then the facts on which you base your opinion should also be serious.[/p][/quote]Being a tad pedantic there G. Maybe the writer is unaware of the need to refer to Native Americans. rather than the cowboy term Red Indians. As history has shown, whenever a nation state expands to become an empire, it more or less forces it's own language on those it conquers, and usually suppresses. The Greeks did it, so did the Romans, but they did it by the sword and terror tactics, English never did that, it persuaded by educational methods. At least not as a direct state policy, what happened in colonial spots was pretty well the pattern of behaviour of administrators in those regions. Wales, likewise was not forced to take on English, the Welsh themselves were in the main responsible for what happened historically to Cymraeg. They saw the distinct advantage of rejecting their own language in favour of a language that could see their children and families benefit from, whereas Cymraeg offered little benefits, nor does it today. It represents a begging bowl mentality, plain to see.[/p][/quote]Hi V, Sorry it took so long to reply; I got bored with the oh-so-usual boxing matches on here... I like your post, though I'm not sure of us as nation using the nicely-nicely approach when it came to extending the English language. That said, I will have to bow to your superior knowledge on that one (...though I seem to remember an old law that forced colonies to trade only with the UK, and that trade was conducted through the medium of English?) The one thing I've enjoyed on here is the idea of forced assimilation into the local culture: when you are in another country, you should respect the native language, culture, and law of the land you are in; and should end up coming to the attention of the police, then you should be forced to pay for a translator. I think this is a fabulous idea, and so would, I imagine, every police force in every tourist destination around Europe who are unlucky enough to attract Brits. Imagine these glorious European islands and suntraps being kept local. Gone would be the pandering to those foreigners and their culture. No more "One Euro a pint during Man Utd game tonight"; no more pictures of chicken nuggets/burger/etc and chips on every walkway; where being served in a cafe, bar or restaurant would involve being able to understand and converse in the local language; ... and where, should you get arrested (or were the victim of a mugging/car accident etc) you'd pay for your own translation into the local language. For once I agree with some of the angry mob on here. Let's petition for it. Gareth
  • Score: 6

1:12pm Mon 13 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote: Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language. http://www.opendemoc racy.net/ourkingdom/ evan-harris/home-tru ths-decline-of-welsh -language
Good article. But that level of logic and analysis will definitely not appeal to the people who spend our money on it. Far too 'inconvenient'.
The Welsh language doesn't really have any intrinsic use apart from being a part of the whole 'Welsh Brand Identity' that gets presented to the world to promote the false idea that we're somehow unique. Time for it to end. And Mervyn - beating your children used to be a right, as did owning slaves, or any number of other vile practices. Just because they're rights, doesn't make them right.
But surely the issue here is that of a nation that has been invaded may years ago, and had the language suppressed by the "conquerors". Without those actions, the Welsh language would have an intrinsic use - i.e to communicate with each other in our country. So how can asking for OUR language to be available in OUR country be wrong? Perhaps it would be easier if we were to ask for reparations from our invading neighbours? that would cover the cost of a few signs then, eh?

It was always something that shamed me that during my childhood I was taught no Welsh in school, and that I did not know or understand my own national anthem until I took evening courses to learn. This is why I do not begrudge the money spent to promote Welsh.

And finally, comparing keeping Welsh alive to owning slaves or beating kids - that's disgusting. Why is that the comments section on this site always seems to be a race to the gutter?
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: Rather good article I came across called Home Truths: The decline of the Welsh language. http://www.opendemoc racy.net/ourkingdom/ evan-harris/home-tru ths-decline-of-welsh -language[/p][/quote]Good article. But that level of logic and analysis will definitely not appeal to the people who spend our money on it. Far too 'inconvenient'.[/p][/quote]The Welsh language doesn't really have any intrinsic use apart from being a part of the whole 'Welsh Brand Identity' that gets presented to the world to promote the false idea that we're somehow unique. Time for it to end. And Mervyn - beating your children used to be a right, as did owning slaves, or any number of other vile practices. Just because they're rights, doesn't make them right.[/p][/quote]But surely the issue here is that of a nation that has been invaded may years ago, and had the language suppressed by the "conquerors". Without those actions, the Welsh language would have an intrinsic use - i.e to communicate with each other in our country. So how can asking for OUR language to be available in OUR country be wrong? Perhaps it would be easier if we were to ask for reparations from our invading neighbours? that would cover the cost of a few signs then, eh? It was always something that shamed me that during my childhood I was taught no Welsh in school, and that I did not know or understand my own national anthem until I took evening courses to learn. This is why I do not begrudge the money spent to promote Welsh. And finally, comparing keeping Welsh alive to owning slaves or beating kids - that's disgusting. Why is that the comments section on this site always seems to be a race to the gutter? ollie72
  • Score: -3

1:54pm Mon 13 Jan 14

cymrostudent says...

Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters. cymrostudent
  • Score: -15

2:21pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

cymrostudent wrote:
Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
….and weighing in on the intellectual side of the debate. At least you are doing your bit to reinforce what many say about the cognitive capability of 'students'.
[quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]….and weighing in on the intellectual side of the debate. At least you are doing your bit to reinforce what many say about the cognitive capability of 'students'. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 10

2:39pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

cymrostudent wrote:
Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
[quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person! Vox Dei
  • Score: 15

3:06pm Mon 13 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

Vox Dei wrote:
cymrostudent wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
Vox,

You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood.

In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person![/p][/quote]Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"? ollie72
  • Score: -4

3:31pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

ollie72 wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
cymrostudent wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
Vox,

You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood.

In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?
If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely?
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person![/p][/quote]Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?[/p][/quote]If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 12

3:40pm Mon 13 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
Ollie254 wrote: If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction.
it should be a pay per view channel like sky sports and we will see once the welsh language gang have to pay for this crap how keen they will be then
So none of the Welsh speaking public are licence fee payers? Or tax payers?

They have to pay extra to receive communications in their language?

How about those who need sign language, or audio description? Should they pay more because the aren't the majority?
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ollie254[/bold] wrote: If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction.[/p][/quote]it should be a pay per view channel like sky sports and we will see once the welsh language gang have to pay for this crap how keen they will be then[/p][/quote]So none of the Welsh speaking public are licence fee payers? Or tax payers? They have to pay extra to receive communications in their language? How about those who need sign language, or audio description? Should they pay more because the aren't the majority? ollie72
  • Score: -4

3:48pm Mon 13 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
cymrostudent wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?
If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely?
So you don't agree that people moving to and living in England - and having no connection to the country apart from current residency - should be taught English?

There are 560,000 welsh speakers in Wales - around 20% of the population. This is not some lunatic fringe, it is a large number of people that wish to live, communicate and converse in their own language - An act that was punishable in schools in south wales by ridicule and corporal punishment as recently as the 60's.

Can I assume from your comment above that you are one of these people that are "living here, but with no connection to the place other than current residency"? And because our language inconveniences you and your offspring, you want the language to be scrapped? Isn't that colonialism as practiced by the English for centuries?
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person![/p][/quote]Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?[/p][/quote]If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely?[/p][/quote]So you don't agree that people moving to and living in England - and having no connection to the country apart from current residency - should be taught English? There are 560,000 welsh speakers in Wales - around 20% of the population. This is not some lunatic fringe, it is a large number of people that wish to live, communicate and converse in their own language - An act that was punishable in schools in south wales by ridicule and corporal punishment as recently as the 60's. Can I assume from your comment above that you are one of these people that are "living here, but with no connection to the place other than current residency"? And because our language inconveniences you and your offspring, you want the language to be scrapped? Isn't that colonialism as practiced by the English for centuries? ollie72
  • Score: -7

4:27pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

ollie72 wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
cymrostudent wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?
If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely?
So you don't agree that people moving to and living in England - and having no connection to the country apart from current residency - should be taught English?

There are 560,000 welsh speakers in Wales - around 20% of the population. This is not some lunatic fringe, it is a large number of people that wish to live, communicate and converse in their own language - An act that was punishable in schools in south wales by ridicule and corporal punishment as recently as the 60's.

Can I assume from your comment above that you are one of these people that are "living here, but with no connection to the place other than current residency"? And because our language inconveniences you and your offspring, you want the language to be scrapped? Isn't that colonialism as practiced by the English for centuries?
Anyone who has ever read my posts will know that I don't want it 'scrapped'. I question the validity and efficacy of the billions being spent on trying to keep it afloat which have some very dubious side effects. If you are taught English you can live anywhere in the UK and be able to converse. For most jobs, that is sufficient to be employed as well. The 560,000 number is suspect at best. I was born and brought up here and apart from a spell in Uni lived here and paid taxes here all my life. I am persuaded though that it is an expense which Wales can ill afford and the justification for such stupidity as employing a minister, having tortuous debates about place names and dual documentation for everything when, by definition, 50% of it goes to landfill unread, is insane. Especially when people are dying here for the want of treatment.
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person![/p][/quote]Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?[/p][/quote]If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely?[/p][/quote]So you don't agree that people moving to and living in England - and having no connection to the country apart from current residency - should be taught English? There are 560,000 welsh speakers in Wales - around 20% of the population. This is not some lunatic fringe, it is a large number of people that wish to live, communicate and converse in their own language - An act that was punishable in schools in south wales by ridicule and corporal punishment as recently as the 60's. Can I assume from your comment above that you are one of these people that are "living here, but with no connection to the place other than current residency"? And because our language inconveniences you and your offspring, you want the language to be scrapped? Isn't that colonialism as practiced by the English for centuries?[/p][/quote]Anyone who has ever read my posts will know that I don't want it 'scrapped'. I question the validity and efficacy of the billions being spent on trying to keep it afloat which have some very dubious side effects. If you are taught English you can live anywhere in the UK and be able to converse. For most jobs, that is sufficient to be employed as well. The 560,000 number is suspect at best. I was born and brought up here and apart from a spell in Uni lived here and paid taxes here all my life. I am persuaded though that it is an expense which Wales can ill afford and the justification for such stupidity as employing a minister, having tortuous debates about place names and dual documentation for everything when, by definition, 50% of it goes to landfill unread, is insane. Especially when people are dying here for the want of treatment. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 22

4:51pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Ollie254 says...

ollie72 wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
Ollie254 wrote: If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction.
it should be a pay per view channel like sky sports and we will see once the welsh language gang have to pay for this crap how keen they will be then
So none of the Welsh speaking public are licence fee payers? Or tax payers?

They have to pay extra to receive communications in their language?

How about those who need sign language, or audio description? Should they pay more because the aren't the majority?
Why should a licence fee payer pay to provide a service for others that he / she cannot understand. If you want a service then pay for it.
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Ollie254[/bold] wrote: If you want to receive welsh language literature register this fact with the relevant utility firm / organisation and then pay a fee. If you want welsh language broadcasting pay for that as well on a pay to view basis. All money currently spent on this complete waste of should be spent on health and eduction.[/p][/quote]it should be a pay per view channel like sky sports and we will see once the welsh language gang have to pay for this crap how keen they will be then[/p][/quote]So none of the Welsh speaking public are licence fee payers? Or tax payers? They have to pay extra to receive communications in their language? How about those who need sign language, or audio description? Should they pay more because the aren't the majority?[/p][/quote]Why should a licence fee payer pay to provide a service for others that he / she cannot understand. If you want a service then pay for it. Ollie254
  • Score: -1

5:44pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English.
As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no. Banjalucka
  • Score: 11

7:15pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

Banjalucka wrote:
Mervyn - Please stop using words like 'bile' because you don't like other views. Nothing against Welsh being used for culture or private Masonic rituals, but not in day to day living. It's a waste of spce in such a cosmopolitan town.
Cosmopolitan ? where do you live ? you cannot be talking about Newport ! Your derogatory remarks re masons are irrelevant, you asked me to answer you and I did, cosmopolitan hahahahahahahahahaha
h !!!! And it isn't even April 1st yet....
[quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Mervyn - Please stop using words like 'bile' because you don't like other views. Nothing against Welsh being used for culture or private Masonic rituals, but not in day to day living. It's a waste of spce in such a cosmopolitan town.[/p][/quote]Cosmopolitan ? where do you live ? you cannot be talking about Newport ! Your derogatory remarks re masons are irrelevant, you asked me to answer you and I did, cosmopolitan hahahahahahahahahaha h !!!! And it isn't even April 1st yet.... Mervyn James
  • Score: -9

8:31pm Mon 13 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

Banjalucka wrote:
Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English.
As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice.

500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population.

I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
[quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults... ollie72
  • Score: -10

9:05pm Mon 13 Jan 14

Dave on his Soapbox says...

Despite all the money being spent....the numbers speaking Welsh is falling and if it wasn't to the forced teaching in schools the decline would be event greater....
This article was on the BBC based on the 2011 Census results

http://www.bbc.co.uk
/news/uk-wales-20677
528
Despite all the money being spent....the numbers speaking Welsh is falling and if it wasn't to the forced teaching in schools the decline would be event greater.... This article was on the BBC based on the 2011 Census results http://www.bbc.co.uk /news/uk-wales-20677 528 Dave on his Soapbox
  • Score: 13

10:39pm Mon 13 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
Cymro i'r Carn wrote:
Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw?

A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti.
i like the vast majority of people living in newport have not got a clue what this gibbirish is
And it doesn't make you sad to say that?

This language did not decline naturally, it was suppressed - it's like blaming someone for not breathing while someone else is strangling him!
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymro i'r Carn[/bold] wrote: Trist iawn. Brian Donovan, pa mor unllygeidiog ac anneallus wyt ti? Wyt ti wir yn gwbod unrhyw beth am Gymru ac wyt ti erioed wedi teithio o Gasnewydd i unrhyw ardal arall o Gymru i gael gweld bod y Gymraeg yn berthnasol iawn i fywydau nifer fawr o'r boblogaeth. Os mai cael gwared o'r Gymraeg ydy dy flaenoriaeth di mewn bywyd, be ma hynna yn ddeud amdano ti? Ac yn wir, ai yng Nghymru ddyle ti fod? Os wyt ti isie byw mewn gwlad uniaith, does gen ti ddim llawer o ddewis gan fod y rhan fwya o wledydd yn arddel mwy nag un iaith ond mae gen ti Lloegr. Be am iti symud i fano i fyw? A pham fod rhaid dewis rhwng yr NHS neu'r Gymraeg? Be am yr holl wasanaethau eraill sy'n cael eu hariannu gan y Llywodraeth? Dwi ddim am wastraffu eilaid yn fwy o'n amser ar ffŵl fel ti.[/p][/quote]i like the vast majority of people living in newport have not got a clue what this gibbirish is[/p][/quote]And it doesn't make you sad to say that? This language did not decline naturally, it was suppressed - it's like blaming someone for not breathing while someone else is strangling him! ollie72
  • Score: -11

12:44am Tue 14 Jan 14

county mad says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
cymrostudent wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?
If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely?
So you don't agree that people moving to and living in England - and having no connection to the country apart from current residency - should be taught English?

There are 560,000 welsh speakers in Wales - around 20% of the population. This is not some lunatic fringe, it is a large number of people that wish to live, communicate and converse in their own language - An act that was punishable in schools in south wales by ridicule and corporal punishment as recently as the 60's.

Can I assume from your comment above that you are one of these people that are "living here, but with no connection to the place other than current residency"? And because our language inconveniences you and your offspring, you want the language to be scrapped? Isn't that colonialism as practiced by the English for centuries?
Anyone who has ever read my posts will know that I don't want it 'scrapped'. I question the validity and efficacy of the billions being spent on trying to keep it afloat which have some very dubious side effects. If you are taught English you can live anywhere in the UK and be able to converse. For most jobs, that is sufficient to be employed as well. The 560,000 number is suspect at best. I was born and brought up here and apart from a spell in Uni lived here and paid taxes here all my life. I am persuaded though that it is an expense which Wales can ill afford and the justification for such stupidity as employing a minister, having tortuous debates about place names and dual documentation for everything when, by definition, 50% of it goes to landfill unread, is insane. Especially when people are dying here for the want of treatment.
560000 Welsh speakers?!!
Why dont they watch S4C they dont getanywhere near that size audience which says an awful lot about the living language
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person![/p][/quote]Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?[/p][/quote]If it's 'living' why does it need 'promoting' at all? Surely the groundswell of eager Welsh language aficionados we keep hearing about are queuing up to keep it alive? Can you not see that anyone living here, but with no other connection to the place other than current residency (parentage, ethnic origin, etc), wonder why their kids HAVE to be taught it. Desperation is the only clear explanation surely?[/p][/quote]So you don't agree that people moving to and living in England - and having no connection to the country apart from current residency - should be taught English? There are 560,000 welsh speakers in Wales - around 20% of the population. This is not some lunatic fringe, it is a large number of people that wish to live, communicate and converse in their own language - An act that was punishable in schools in south wales by ridicule and corporal punishment as recently as the 60's. Can I assume from your comment above that you are one of these people that are "living here, but with no connection to the place other than current residency"? And because our language inconveniences you and your offspring, you want the language to be scrapped? Isn't that colonialism as practiced by the English for centuries?[/p][/quote]Anyone who has ever read my posts will know that I don't want it 'scrapped'. I question the validity and efficacy of the billions being spent on trying to keep it afloat which have some very dubious side effects. If you are taught English you can live anywhere in the UK and be able to converse. For most jobs, that is sufficient to be employed as well. The 560,000 number is suspect at best. I was born and brought up here and apart from a spell in Uni lived here and paid taxes here all my life. I am persuaded though that it is an expense which Wales can ill afford and the justification for such stupidity as employing a minister, having tortuous debates about place names and dual documentation for everything when, by definition, 50% of it goes to landfill unread, is insane. Especially when people are dying here for the want of treatment.[/p][/quote]560000 Welsh speakers?!! Why dont they watch S4C they dont getanywhere near that size audience which says an awful lot about the living language county mad
  • Score: 11

8:01am Tue 14 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote:
Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English.
As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice.

500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population.

I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
Please refrain from using the term 'welshies' it is an obvious abusive term the way it is used. We should ignore every word said after that term is included, time then to attack the person not the view. It is hard to believe some posters mount such vicious attacks on fellow welsh people, it's the sort of rhetoric we come to expect of little englanders, language bigots, spoilers, the ignorant, and trolls, and such, not our own people.
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]Please refrain from using the term 'welshies' it is an obvious abusive term the way it is used. We should ignore every word said after that term is included, time then to attack the person not the view. It is hard to believe some posters mount such vicious attacks on fellow welsh people, it's the sort of rhetoric we come to expect of little englanders, language bigots, spoilers, the ignorant, and trolls, and such, not our own people. Mervyn James
  • Score: -10

9:36am Tue 14 Jan 14

_Bryan_ says...

I got on a train the other day. There were two signs on the wall "Platform 1" and "Platfform 1". The rail company had to spend twice as much on signs because the Welsh word has an extra F in it.

This has to be one of the most blatant examples of waste ever.
I got on a train the other day. There were two signs on the wall "Platform 1" and "Platfform 1". The rail company had to spend twice as much on signs because the Welsh word has an extra F in it. This has to be one of the most blatant examples of waste ever. _Bryan_
  • Score: 17

10:19am Tue 14 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Mervyn
..... and anyone else who doesn't agree with your views ! I am as Welsh as anyone else Merv but why do you always advertise your poor down-trodden existence 'suppressing' your natural language.? Sounds like a skit from Nazi Germany!
And please stop this 500,000 Welsh speakers lark. there is no possible way that Wales has that number walking about spouting it fluently. 3/4 of that may be nearer.

The same monotonous comments by those individuals who considetr themselves more Welsh than the other Welsh.
Mervyn ..... and anyone else who doesn't agree with your views ! I am as Welsh as anyone else Merv but why do you always advertise your poor down-trodden existence 'suppressing' your natural language.? Sounds like a skit from Nazi Germany! And please stop this 500,000 Welsh speakers lark. there is no possible way that Wales has that number walking about spouting it fluently. 3/4 of that may be nearer. The same monotonous comments by those individuals who considetr themselves more Welsh than the other Welsh. Banjalucka
  • Score: 13

10:33am Tue 14 Jan 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote:
Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English.
As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice.

500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population.

I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that.

If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace.

How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't. GardenVarietyMushroom
  • Score: 16

11:00am Tue 14 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
I got on a train the other day. There were two signs on the wall "Platform 1" and "Platfform 1". The rail company had to spend twice as much on signs because the Welsh word has an extra F in it.

This has to be one of the most blatant examples of waste ever.
Especially when one considers that a much simpler sign could be produced with just a train symbol and the numeral "1" or, get ready for this, just the number! Of course, this would be the most practical answer to the problem, but wouldn't do anything to "promote" the Welsh language, so I doubt the zealots would be in favour of it.
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: I got on a train the other day. There were two signs on the wall "Platform 1" and "Platfform 1". The rail company had to spend twice as much on signs because the Welsh word has an extra F in it. This has to be one of the most blatant examples of waste ever.[/p][/quote]Especially when one considers that a much simpler sign could be produced with just a train symbol and the numeral "1" or, get ready for this, just the number! Of course, this would be the most practical answer to the problem, but wouldn't do anything to "promote" the Welsh language, so I doubt the zealots would be in favour of it. Vox Dei
  • Score: 16

11:07am Tue 14 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

ollie72 wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
cymrostudent wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
Vox,

You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood.

In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?
What I am doing is basing my opinion on whether Welsh should be promoted in NEWPORT solely on my view from NEWPORT. I could not care less what happens in Swansea, or Caernarvon, or anywhere else. This is not really a difficult concept for you to understand.
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person![/p][/quote]Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?[/p][/quote]What I am doing is basing my opinion on whether Welsh should be promoted in NEWPORT solely on my view from NEWPORT. I could not care less what happens in Swansea, or Caernarvon, or anywhere else. This is not really a difficult concept for you to understand. Vox Dei
  • Score: 12

11:39am Tue 14 Jan 14

county mad says...

Vox Dei wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
I got on a train the other day. There were two signs on the wall "Platform 1" and "Platfform 1". The rail company had to spend twice as much on signs because the Welsh word has an extra F in it.

This has to be one of the most blatant examples of waste ever.
Especially when one considers that a much simpler sign could be produced with just a train symbol and the numeral "1" or, get ready for this, just the number! Of course, this would be the most practical answer to the problem, but wouldn't do anything to "promote" the Welsh language, so I doubt the zealots would be in favour of it.
It infuriates me when words are weshified it devalues the arguement of a living vibrant language after mandarin english is th3 most spoken language it is the most widely used ,this shamefull waste of valuable resources to promote a little used narrow focused DEAD language is only a victory for the vocal minority
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: I got on a train the other day. There were two signs on the wall "Platform 1" and "Platfform 1". The rail company had to spend twice as much on signs because the Welsh word has an extra F in it. This has to be one of the most blatant examples of waste ever.[/p][/quote]Especially when one considers that a much simpler sign could be produced with just a train symbol and the numeral "1" or, get ready for this, just the number! Of course, this would be the most practical answer to the problem, but wouldn't do anything to "promote" the Welsh language, so I doubt the zealots would be in favour of it.[/p][/quote]It infuriates me when words are weshified it devalues the arguement of a living vibrant language after mandarin english is th3 most spoken language it is the most widely used ,this shamefull waste of valuable resources to promote a little used narrow focused DEAD language is only a victory for the vocal minority county mad
  • Score: 13

12:01pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

Something else has just struck me about the ridiculous "Platfform" nonsense. It's not even consistent. In North Wales they would use "Llwyfannau". So much for half-a-million speakers!
Something else has just struck me about the ridiculous "Platfform" nonsense. It's not even consistent. In North Wales they would use "Llwyfannau". So much for half-a-million speakers! Vox Dei
  • Score: 13

1:28pm Tue 14 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently.

And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers.

However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory:

Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it...

Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway.

Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget. ollie72
  • Score: -9

1:37pm Tue 14 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

Vox Dei wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Vox Dei wrote:
cymrostudent wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.
Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person!
Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?
What I am doing is basing my opinion on whether Welsh should be promoted in NEWPORT solely on my view from NEWPORT. I could not care less what happens in Swansea, or Caernarvon, or anywhere else. This is not really a difficult concept for you to understand.
So what you're actually saying here is "I'm commenting on a Welsh matter about the Welsh language, but could not care less about the rest of Wales, apart from the part I can see from my house"?

That actually is quite a difficult concept for me to understand - someone deciding that because HE doesn't read or speak Welsh, then no-one else should either...
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]cymrostudent[/bold] wrote: Blah blah blah we hate Wales, the Welsh and of course their language, blah, blah. Oh well plenty of English-only countries out there. Since we have toddlers learning the language it is most definitely here for the forseeable future. Good day haters.[/p][/quote]Toddlers learning it who will instantly forget it when they enter the real world and have no use for it... That's a forseeable future of what? A maximum of ten years per person![/p][/quote]Vox, You seem to be basing your opinion of whether Welsh should be promoted in Wales solely on your view from Newport/East Wales. I have mates from Uni who were born and raised in Swansea, and didn't learn English until high school - Welsh was their first and only language during childhood. In West and Mid Wales, it is a living language - it only dies away as you get closer to the border - so why have you decided that none of these people live in the "real world"?[/p][/quote]What I am doing is basing my opinion on whether Welsh should be promoted in NEWPORT solely on my view from NEWPORT. I could not care less what happens in Swansea, or Caernarvon, or anywhere else. This is not really a difficult concept for you to understand.[/p][/quote]So what you're actually saying here is "I'm commenting on a Welsh matter about the Welsh language, but could not care less about the rest of Wales, apart from the part I can see from my house"? That actually is quite a difficult concept for me to understand - someone deciding that because HE doesn't read or speak Welsh, then no-one else should either... ollie72
  • Score: -9

1:39pm Tue 14 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

blackandamber wrote:
The NHS spends in excess of £20 million per annum on bi and multi lingual forms and signs. Now anyone who professes to be a regular Welsh speaker or any other minority language speaker in this country, and is a tax payer do you honestly, hand on heart think this is money well spent
That is quite a claim - and needs backing up with evidence, otherwise it could just be a number you have made up for impact...
[quote][p][bold]blackandamber[/bold] wrote: The NHS spends in excess of £20 million per annum on bi and multi lingual forms and signs. Now anyone who professes to be a regular Welsh speaker or any other minority language speaker in this country, and is a tax payer do you honestly, hand on heart think this is money well spent[/p][/quote]That is quite a claim - and needs backing up with evidence, otherwise it could just be a number you have made up for impact... ollie72
  • Score: -9

1:43pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

So what you're actually saying here is "I'm commenting on a Welsh matter about the Welsh language, but could not care less about the rest of Wales, apart from the part I can see from my house"?

That actually is quite a difficult concept for me to understand - someone deciding that because HE doesn't read or speak Welsh, then no-one else should either...

Are you deliberately being obtuse? I'm commenting on the history and traditions of Newport and Monmouthshire, not "Welsh matters". Please try to understand this -- if you want to spend money trying to prop up the language where people actually speak it then go for it. People in this city and county traditionally don't, so don't bother wasting our money trying to force it on us!
[quote]So what you're actually saying here is "I'm commenting on a Welsh matter about the Welsh language, but could not care less about the rest of Wales, apart from the part I can see from my house"? That actually is quite a difficult concept for me to understand - someone deciding that because HE doesn't read or speak Welsh, then no-one else should either...[/quote] Are you deliberately being obtuse? I'm commenting on the history and traditions of Newport and Monmouthshire, not "Welsh matters". Please try to understand this -- if you want to spend money trying to prop up the language where people actually speak it then go for it. People in this city and county traditionally don't, so don't bother wasting our money trying to force it on us! Vox Dei
  • Score: 15

2:04pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently.

And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers.

However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory:

Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it...

Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway.

Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
Are you ignoring cost of S4C, grants to Eistedfod & festivals, signage (including the latest fashion of giving English places Welsh names on signs), renaming towns, dual documentation, compulsory education, translation of everything public bodies produce, costs to businesses of doubling up? As for the claims to fluency, you see these stories from bodies like National Savings on actual use of them.
http://www.dailypost
.co.uk/news/north-wa
les-news/national-di
sgrace-disgust-axe-w
elsh-6166785
Barclays revealed the stats on people who use the 'Welsh' option on cash machines - guess what, it was minuscule.
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]Are you ignoring cost of S4C, grants to Eistedfod & festivals, signage (including the latest fashion of giving English places Welsh names on signs), renaming towns, dual documentation, compulsory education, translation of everything public bodies produce, costs to businesses of doubling up? As for the claims to fluency, you see these stories from bodies like National Savings on actual use of them. http://www.dailypost .co.uk/news/north-wa les-news/national-di sgrace-disgust-axe-w elsh-6166785 Barclays revealed the stats on people who use the 'Welsh' option on cash machines - guess what, it was minuscule. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 15

2:08pm Tue 14 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

Vox Dei wrote:
So what you're actually saying here is "I'm commenting on a Welsh matter about the Welsh language, but could not care less about the rest of Wales, apart from the part I can see from my house"? That actually is quite a difficult concept for me to understand - someone deciding that because HE doesn't read or speak Welsh, then no-one else should either...
Are you deliberately being obtuse? I'm commenting on the history and traditions of Newport and Monmouthshire, not "Welsh matters". Please try to understand this -- if you want to spend money trying to prop up the language where people actually speak it then go for it. People in this city and county traditionally don't, so don't bother wasting our money trying to force it on us!
And yet the original correspondence above, and the general discussion in the replies, is regarding a national discussion.

So if the WAG decide to spend some money in your street, or your neighbourhood, or on something that benefits only those in Newport - then the rest of Wales would be fully justified in griping and whinging about it?
[quote][p][bold]Vox Dei[/bold] wrote: [quote]So what you're actually saying here is "I'm commenting on a Welsh matter about the Welsh language, but could not care less about the rest of Wales, apart from the part I can see from my house"? That actually is quite a difficult concept for me to understand - someone deciding that because HE doesn't read or speak Welsh, then no-one else should either...[/quote] Are you deliberately being obtuse? I'm commenting on the history and traditions of Newport and Monmouthshire, not "Welsh matters". Please try to understand this -- if you want to spend money trying to prop up the language where people actually speak it then go for it. People in this city and county traditionally don't, so don't bother wasting our money trying to force it on us![/p][/quote]And yet the original correspondence above, and the general discussion in the replies, is regarding a national discussion. So if the WAG decide to spend some money in your street, or your neighbourhood, or on something that benefits only those in Newport - then the rest of Wales would be fully justified in griping and whinging about it? ollie72
  • Score: -10

2:13pm Tue 14 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

And yet the original correspondence above, and the general discussion in the replies, is regarding a national discussion.

So if the WAG decide to spend some money in your street, or your neighbourhood, or on something that benefits only those in Newport - then the rest of Wales would be fully justified in griping and whinging about it?

Do you have a degree in straw-man arguments or something? Neither you nor I can speak for the entirety of Wales, but we can speak about our own communities. If you have been reading the previous posts and witnessing the voting on said posts you should come to the conclusion that in Newport and Monmouthshire the vast majority of people do not want this "promotion". With regard to spending on the Welsh language, I would be over the moon if the WAG spent money on other areas and ignored my city and county completely.
[quote]And yet the original correspondence above, and the general discussion in the replies, is regarding a national discussion. So if the WAG decide to spend some money in your street, or your neighbourhood, or on something that benefits only those in Newport - then the rest of Wales would be fully justified in griping and whinging about it?[/quote] Do you have a degree in straw-man arguments or something? Neither you nor I can speak for the entirety of Wales, but we can speak about our own communities. If you have been reading the previous posts and witnessing the voting on said posts you should come to the conclusion that in Newport and Monmouthshire the vast majority of people do not want this "promotion". With regard to spending on the Welsh language, I would be over the moon if the WAG spent money on other areas and ignored my city and county completely. Vox Dei
  • Score: 10

9:13pm Tue 14 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently.

And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers.

However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory:

Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it...

Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway.

Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
Are you ignoring cost of S4C, grants to Eistedfod & festivals, signage (including the latest fashion of giving English places Welsh names on signs), renaming towns, dual documentation, compulsory education, translation of everything public bodies produce, costs to businesses of doubling up? As for the claims to fluency, you see these stories from bodies like National Savings on actual use of them.
http://www.dailypost

.co.uk/news/north-wa

les-news/national-di

sgrace-disgust-axe-w

elsh-6166785
Barclays revealed the stats on people who use the 'Welsh' option on cash machines - guess what, it was minuscule.
of course it is its no wonder no private business wants to come to wales and Cardiff huge reliance on non jobs in the public sector
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]Are you ignoring cost of S4C, grants to Eistedfod & festivals, signage (including the latest fashion of giving English places Welsh names on signs), renaming towns, dual documentation, compulsory education, translation of everything public bodies produce, costs to businesses of doubling up? As for the claims to fluency, you see these stories from bodies like National Savings on actual use of them. http://www.dailypost .co.uk/news/north-wa les-news/national-di sgrace-disgust-axe-w elsh-6166785 Barclays revealed the stats on people who use the 'Welsh' option on cash machines - guess what, it was minuscule.[/p][/quote]of course it is its no wonder no private business wants to come to wales and Cardiff huge reliance on non jobs in the public sector scraptheWAG
  • Score: 13

9:38pm Tue 14 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently.

And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers.

However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory:

Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it...

Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway.

Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers scraptheWAG
  • Score: 10

9:38pm Tue 14 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently.

And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers.

However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory:

Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it...

Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway.

Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers scraptheWAG
  • Score: 7

11:52am Wed 15 Jan 14

ollie72 says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers
I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time...

£100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air.

The facts:

S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation.

S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year).

S4C employs over 150 people.


If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m)

So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year.

I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above.
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers[/p][/quote]I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time... £100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air. The facts: S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation. S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year). S4C employs over 150 people. If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m) So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year. I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above. ollie72
  • Score: -8

12:20pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

ollie72 wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers
I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time...

£100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air.

The facts:

S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation.

S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year).

S4C employs over 150 people.


If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m)

So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year.

I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above.
All of that might make sense if the Welsh speaking viewers didn't ever use other BBC services like the other channels or radio. You can guarantee that they do. Would it not be more sensible to place the few programs that do attract a Welsh speaking audience on rented space on an existing broadcasters digital platform (like Sky Arts). They could then do away with their premises , executives and production costs for the programs which no-one watches.
[quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers[/p][/quote]I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time... £100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air. The facts: S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation. S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year). S4C employs over 150 people. If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m) So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year. I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above.[/p][/quote]All of that might make sense if the Welsh speaking viewers didn't ever use other BBC services like the other channels or radio. You can guarantee that they do. Would it not be more sensible to place the few programs that do attract a Welsh speaking audience on rented space on an existing broadcasters digital platform (like Sky Arts). They could then do away with their premises , executives and production costs for the programs which no-one watches. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 13

12:31pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Regarding costs to business and also the claims regarding the number of fluent speakers (as specious as hell): This from NSI

'Not cost effective'
NS&I said that as of February 2012, there were 107 customers corresponding with it in Welsh.

That represented 0.007% of the 1,549,577 NS&I customers living in Wales, and only 0.06% of Welsh deposits.

"At an annual cost of around £900 per Welsh speaking NS&I customer, or an additional cost of 3.78% for every pound of their deposits, our Welsh language scheme is not a cost effective use of public funds," it added in a statement to BBC Radio Cymru's Taro'r Post programme.
Regarding costs to business and also the claims regarding the number of fluent speakers (as specious as hell): This from NSI 'Not cost effective' NS&I said that as of February 2012, there were 107 customers corresponding with it in Welsh. That represented 0.007% of the 1,549,577 NS&I customers living in Wales, and only 0.06% of Welsh deposits. "At an annual cost of around £900 per Welsh speaking NS&I customer, or an additional cost of 3.78% for every pound of their deposits, our Welsh language scheme is not a cost effective use of public funds," it added in a statement to BBC Radio Cymru's Taro'r Post programme. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 11

1:52pm Wed 15 Jan 14

_Bryan_ says...

The quoted number of 562,000 Welsh speakers is misleading in the context of this debate.

The relevant number is actually the amount of people who speak Welsh and DON'T speak English, which is vanishingly small. It is only these people that could conceivably need to have documentation and signage printed in both English and Welsh as the remainder would be able to understand these in the majority language.
The quoted number of 562,000 Welsh speakers is misleading in the context of this debate. The relevant number is actually the amount of people who speak Welsh and DON'T speak English, which is vanishingly small. It is only these people that could conceivably need to have documentation and signage printed in both English and Welsh as the remainder would be able to understand these in the majority language. _Bryan_
  • Score: 9

7:17pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers
I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time...

£100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air.

The facts:

S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation.

S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year).

S4C employs over 150 people.


If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m)

So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year.

I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above.
All of that might make sense if the Welsh speaking viewers didn't ever use other BBC services like the other channels or radio. You can guarantee that they do. Would it not be more sensible to place the few programs that do attract a Welsh speaking audience on rented space on an existing broadcasters digital platform (like Sky Arts). They could then do away with their premises , executives and production costs for the programs which no-one watches.
S4C IS actually funded via theTV licence payer. That includes not just Welsh residents, but English and Scottish, and Irish), so we don't as a welsh nation fund it all ourselves. Just a small, percentage. Not that the antiWAG and anti-Language moaners are to be deterred by facts. I am wondering how many watch S4C ? they seem here to be authorities on it without ever turning it on ! Its quite accessible always has been to English, and they even provided Polish subtitling at one point. I expect we will get the moaners complaining about subtitles next, as someone who relies on them expect I will defend those too. NO we don't want welsh culture dumped in the dead zones of SKY arts or anywhere else. That ignores the fact many do not subscribe to SKY, I don't.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers[/p][/quote]I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time... £100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air. The facts: S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation. S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year). S4C employs over 150 people. If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m) So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year. I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above.[/p][/quote]All of that might make sense if the Welsh speaking viewers didn't ever use other BBC services like the other channels or radio. You can guarantee that they do. Would it not be more sensible to place the few programs that do attract a Welsh speaking audience on rented space on an existing broadcasters digital platform (like Sky Arts). They could then do away with their premises , executives and production costs for the programs which no-one watches.[/p][/quote]S4C IS actually funded via theTV licence payer. That includes not just Welsh residents, but English and Scottish, and Irish), so we don't as a welsh nation fund it all ourselves. Just a small, percentage. Not that the antiWAG and anti-Language moaners are to be deterred by facts. I am wondering how many watch S4C ? they seem here to be authorities on it without ever turning it on ! Its quite accessible always has been to English, and they even provided Polish subtitling at one point. I expect we will get the moaners complaining about subtitles next, as someone who relies on them expect I will defend those too. NO we don't want welsh culture dumped in the dead zones of SKY arts or anywhere else. That ignores the fact many do not subscribe to SKY, I don't. Mervyn James
  • Score: -5

8:00pm Wed 15 Jan 14

Banjalucka says...

Merv, the only one moaning is you!Must admit i do watch S4C now and then and pick up a few extra Welsh words. Getting quite good at it too. Like Denis the Penis on there. Got no probs with it myself. But as i have said time and again, its for culture only not everyday living communication. All te figures bandied around by the Welshies are vastly overexagerated and the forms etc are a waste of cash. That's all.
Merv, the only one moaning is you!Must admit i do watch S4C now and then and pick up a few extra Welsh words. Getting quite good at it too. Like Denis the Penis on there. Got no probs with it myself. But as i have said time and again, its for culture only not everyday living communication. All te figures bandied around by the Welshies are vastly overexagerated and the forms etc are a waste of cash. That's all. Banjalucka
  • Score: 6

8:03am Thu 16 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

The situation has no resolve, nor in my opinion needs resolving. Until the carping stops, I will defend the right of any welsh person to learn, read, be educated, or speak welsh in their own country. It is a fundamental right, that if undermined opens the door to much wider discrimination and deprivation. Cest la vie, we don't all want to end up the same, it will never happen anyway. I only 'moan' when people talk utter rubbish and are hateful or ignorant, in reality more moaners are needed, since apathy is the ultimate in negative attitudes. "I don't speak it, so we all don't want it..." has to be the most silly and illogical argument ever.
The situation has no resolve, nor in my opinion needs resolving. Until the carping stops, I will defend the right of any welsh person to learn, read, be educated, or speak welsh in their own country. It is a fundamental right, that if undermined opens the door to much wider discrimination and deprivation. Cest la vie, we don't all want to end up the same, it will never happen anyway. I only 'moan' when people talk utter rubbish and are hateful or ignorant, in reality more moaners are needed, since apathy is the ultimate in negative attitudes. "I don't speak it, so we all don't want it..." has to be the most silly and illogical argument ever. Mervyn James
  • Score: -7

8:52am Thu 16 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote:
ollie72 wrote:
Banjalucka wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.
Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...
There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.
GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.
100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers
I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time...

£100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air.

The facts:

S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation.

S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year).

S4C employs over 150 people.


If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m)

So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year.

I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above.
All of that might make sense if the Welsh speaking viewers didn't ever use other BBC services like the other channels or radio. You can guarantee that they do. Would it not be more sensible to place the few programs that do attract a Welsh speaking audience on rented space on an existing broadcasters digital platform (like Sky Arts). They could then do away with their premises , executives and production costs for the programs which no-one watches.
S4C IS actually funded via theTV licence payer. That includes not just Welsh residents, but English and Scottish, and Irish), so we don't as a welsh nation fund it all ourselves. Just a small, percentage. Not that the antiWAG and anti-Language moaners are to be deterred by facts. I am wondering how many watch S4C ? they seem here to be authorities on it without ever turning it on ! Its quite accessible always has been to English, and they even provided Polish subtitling at one point. I expect we will get the moaners complaining about subtitles next, as someone who relies on them expect I will defend those too. NO we don't want welsh culture dumped in the dead zones of SKY arts or anywhere else. That ignores the fact many do not subscribe to SKY, I don't.
'NO we don't want welsh culture dumped in the dead zones of SKY arts or anywhere else. '

You say that as if S4c is the centre of the cultural universe. Only a handful of S4C's week of broadcasting gets above 50k viewers (kitchen sink soaps). It's news programme gets around 20k and most of the rest is too low to measure. How 'dead' a zone do you want? And yet they have money to give away. Bonkers.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ollie72[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Banjalucka[/bold] wrote: Ollie 72 i really a fervent Welshie. The rest of Wales would not survive without te three cities in S Wales. And you come up with the most pathetic defences. West and Mid Wales it is living language? 500,000+ welsh speakers? In your dreams Oll!Residency - yes, like any other country they should speak UK language ie English. As usual on this topic the Welshies keep trying to convince the non Welsh speakers that is a wonderful thing. Is it heck! Culture only, living no.[/p][/quote]Who is talking about survival? We are talking about people's right to speak the language of their choice. 500,000 welsh speakers according to the last census - around 20% of the population. I realise I'm making a mistake here, by trying to enage you in logic - but i'm an optimist, and keep hoping that people are happy to discuss the issue, rather than throw random insults...[/p][/quote]There's been research to suggest that only around half of these people speak Welsh with any fluency - though I can see why you'd want to ignore that. If people want to learn and speak Welsh - let them. I have no problem with that at all. But the decision to promote the language is being taken at a national level, and huige amounts of money being (IMO) wasted, that could be better used elsewhere, ten times over to benefit, at best, only around ten percent of the populace. How is that democratic? Answer - it isn't.[/p][/quote]GVM, I'm not ignoring anything - I don't have any figures to hand other that those from the census, in which 562,000 people stated that that they spoke Welsh fluently. And I am yet to find out how much money has been spent on promoting the Welsh language. I've taken a look through Google, and the best I can find is someone requesting this info from the WAG and being told that it is not a separate budget, so the figures aren't available. I don't see any evidence of government "promoting" the language - just ensuring that there is info available to Welsh speakers. However, I don't buy in to the "huge amounts" theory: Putting extra lettering on a sign doesn't double the cost, the cost is in the sign's materials and installation, not the amount of letters on it... Printing a welsh language version of a letter doesn't double the cost - it is usually a separate sheet of paper included in the envelope that has already been sent anyway. Seriously, and without resorting to insults, can anyone actually provide a figure that is spent on "promoting" the Welsh language? My belief is that it is a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things, and would achieve nothing if added to the NHS budget.[/p][/quote]100 million grant is given to s4c a channel that its top show attract a tiny amount of viewers[/p][/quote]I shouldn't keep getting drawn in - it just leads to people calling me obtuse, and my arguments "pathetic" - but I'll try one more time... £100m? It always gets me when people just pull a number out of the air. The facts: S4C is funded through the BBC - so the money could not be redistributed to the NHS, as it is not taken from taxation. S4C costs £83m per year (By the way, MP's expenses cost £89m per year). S4C employs over 150 people. If, as the census reports, there are 562,000 welsh speakers in Wales, then the licence fee from each of those = £81.7m total (I realise that the true number of households is probably half that, so let's say £40m) So S4C is costing the non welsh speaking licence payers UK wide £40m. There are 26 million licence paying households in the UK, so it's costing each of those that don't use it £1.50 per year. I now fully expect to get abuse from those that don't like the figures above.[/p][/quote]All of that might make sense if the Welsh speaking viewers didn't ever use other BBC services like the other channels or radio. You can guarantee that they do. Would it not be more sensible to place the few programs that do attract a Welsh speaking audience on rented space on an existing broadcasters digital platform (like Sky Arts). They could then do away with their premises , executives and production costs for the programs which no-one watches.[/p][/quote]S4C IS actually funded via theTV licence payer. That includes not just Welsh residents, but English and Scottish, and Irish), so we don't as a welsh nation fund it all ourselves. Just a small, percentage. Not that the antiWAG and anti-Language moaners are to be deterred by facts. I am wondering how many watch S4C ? they seem here to be authorities on it without ever turning it on ! Its quite accessible always has been to English, and they even provided Polish subtitling at one point. I expect we will get the moaners complaining about subtitles next, as someone who relies on them expect I will defend those too. NO we don't want welsh culture dumped in the dead zones of SKY arts or anywhere else. That ignores the fact many do not subscribe to SKY, I don't.[/p][/quote]'NO we don't want welsh culture dumped in the dead zones of SKY arts or anywhere else. ' You say that as if S4c is the centre of the cultural universe. Only a handful of S4C's week of broadcasting gets above 50k viewers (kitchen sink soaps). It's news programme gets around 20k and most of the rest is too low to measure. How 'dead' a zone do you want? And yet they have money to give away. Bonkers. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 9

10:22am Thu 16 Jan 14

_Bryan_ says...

The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person
The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person _Bryan_
  • Score: 10

7:15pm Thu 16 Jan 14

scraptheWAG says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person
ha that is funney but true apparently some some tines BARB cannot even measure a single viewer.
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person[/p][/quote]ha that is funney but true apparently some some tines BARB cannot even measure a single viewer. scraptheWAG
  • Score: 1

1:46am Fri 17 Jan 14

newportscum says...

Pathetic WAIST! of time and tax payers money!!
Pathetic WAIST! of time and tax payers money!! newportscum
  • Score: 1

1:49am Fri 17 Jan 14

newportscum says...

scraptheWAG wrote:
and why £56,000 a pc only costs £1000 at most and thats for a apple mac so are they buying 56,000 computers what are they spending it on??
This is a joke right?????????????
[quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: and why £56,000 a pc only costs £1000 at most and thats for a apple mac so are they buying 56,000 computers what are they spending it on??[/p][/quote]This is a joke right????????????? newportscum
  • Score: 0

1:50am Fri 17 Jan 14

newportscum says...

newportscum wrote:
scraptheWAG wrote:
and why £56,000 a pc only costs £1000 at most and thats for a apple mac so are they buying 56,000 computers what are they spending it on??
This is a joke right?????????????
this goverment is crazy
[quote][p][bold]newportscum[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]scraptheWAG[/bold] wrote: and why £56,000 a pc only costs £1000 at most and thats for a apple mac so are they buying 56,000 computers what are they spending it on??[/p][/quote]This is a joke right?????????????[/p][/quote]this goverment is crazy newportscum
  • Score: 2

7:07am Fri 17 Jan 14

Vox Dei says...

newportscum wrote:
Pathetic WAIST! of time and tax payers money!!
You NOSE! it... :)
[quote][p][bold]newportscum[/bold] wrote: Pathetic WAIST! of time and tax payers money!![/p][/quote]You NOSE! it... :) Vox Dei
  • Score: 4

11:26am Fri 17 Jan 14

Mervyn James says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person
Men of Harlech, march to glory,
Victory is hov'ring o'er ye,
Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye,
Hear ye not her call?

:)
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person[/p][/quote]Men of Harlech, march to glory, Victory is hov'ring o'er ye, Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye, Hear ye not her call? :) Mervyn James
  • Score: -7

1:07pm Fri 17 Jan 14

blackandamber says...

Mervyn James wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person
Men of Harlech, march to glory,
Victory is hov'ring o'er ye,
Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye,
Hear ye not her call?

:)
Ok Ivor we get the message.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person[/p][/quote]Men of Harlech, march to glory, Victory is hov'ring o'er ye, Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye, Hear ye not her call? :)[/p][/quote]Ok Ivor we get the message. blackandamber
  • Score: 5

10:58pm Fri 17 Jan 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Mervyn James wrote:
_Bryan_ wrote:
The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person
Men of Harlech, march to glory,
Victory is hov'ring o'er ye,
Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye,
Hear ye not her call?

:)
I guess the response to that post is : when you reach the bottom of the sherry bottle it's best to pack it in.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: The number of people that actually watch S4C, it makes me wonder whether it wouldn't be cheaper to send the actors around to the individual homes and let them act out their scenes in person[/p][/quote]Men of Harlech, march to glory, Victory is hov'ring o'er ye, Bright-eyed freedom stands before ye, Hear ye not her call? :)[/p][/quote]I guess the response to that post is : when you reach the bottom of the sherry bottle it's best to pack it in. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 7

Comments are closed on this article.

Send us your news, pictures and videos

Most read stories

Local Info

Enter your postcode, town or place name

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree