Bible youngsters

MR. STAFFORD seems to have got himself stuck up the creek with a paddle!

The denial that the Bible doesn’t support beating children as a punishment is uncredible given God’s counsel to parents, namely, whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod (Proverbs 13:24, 20:30 and 23:13-14). When it comes to the Bible Mr. Stafford you have to accept your God’s word on the subject.

Terry Banfield Cardigan Crescent Cwmbran

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5:32pm Wed 12 Feb 14

varteg1 says...

Terry....like I said elsewhere, they get hoist by their own petard whenever the open up.
Terry....like I said elsewhere, they get hoist by their own petard whenever the open up. varteg1

11:15pm Wed 12 Feb 14

pbhj says...

It's an interesting observation you make that "the Bible doesn’t support beating children as a punishment" .

Perhaps you can see now how limited snippets can be a problem when attempting to study the wisdom - and otherwise - recorded in the Bible.

You claim falsely that "whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod" is God's counsel. Certainly your selected verses do not say anything of the sort nor have I read this suggestion, nor heard it espoused in any Christian fellowship nor is it consistent with Jesus message.

Proverbs 13:24 finishes by saying that "the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them". Notice that word "discipline". Discipline is about learning to correct yourself, the intention is not punishment. You'll no doubt have noticed that earlier in chapter 13 the writer notes that whilst wise words are advantageous the treacherous resort to violence (Proverbs 13:2).

The sayings in Proverbs are, well, proverbs. We are not entreated that the words recorded are to always be heeded, nor are they recorded as instructions from God. Instead as with all scripture we are to use our minds and meditate upon it - the guidance too of the Holy Spirit is vital.

The Message, a figurative translation puts Proverbs 23:13-14 in this way:

"Don’t be afraid to correct your young ones;
a spanking won’t kill them.
A good spanking, in fact, might save them
from something worse than death."

I've smacked my child on the bottom to stop them running out in to the road. It worked and their road discipline was exceptional afterwards. Similarly a smack on the hand has prevented burns.

Quite possibly if I were a nomadic tribesman living on the steppes of the Levant I might well use a rod to stop my child naively straying where wolves might devour him, say; painful as that would be for both of us the alternative would be far worse.

It's important to note the change that the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus has brought. Clearly a Christian should model in their relationship with their children the relationship that God shows them - God is merciful and gracious towards us. This in the context of discipline of children means that it is clearly wrong then for a parent to punish when the intention is not discipline and growth towards improvement and fulfilment.

One must be careful to look at the whole context.

It's an interesting observation you make that "the Bible doesn’t support beating children as a punishment" [incomplete quotation]. Perhaps you can see now how limited snippets can be a problem when attempting to study the wisdom - and otherwise - recorded in the Bible. You claim falsely that "whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod" is God's counsel. Certainly your selected verses do not say anything of the sort nor have I read this suggestion, nor heard it espoused in any Christian fellowship nor is it consistent with Jesus message. Proverbs 13:24 finishes by saying that "the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them". Notice that word "discipline". Discipline is about learning to correct yourself, the intention is not punishment. You'll no doubt have noticed that earlier in chapter 13 the writer notes that whilst wise words are advantageous the treacherous resort to violence (Proverbs 13:2). The sayings in Proverbs are, well, proverbs. We are not entreated that the words recorded are to always be heeded, nor are they recorded as instructions from God. Instead as with all scripture we are to use our minds and meditate upon it - the guidance too of the Holy Spirit is vital. The Message, a figurative translation puts Proverbs 23:13-14 in this way: "Don’t be afraid to correct your young ones; a spanking won’t kill them. A good spanking, in fact, might save them from something worse than death." [The Message (MSG)] I've smacked my child on the bottom to stop them running out in to the road. It worked and their road discipline was exceptional afterwards. Similarly a smack on the hand has prevented burns. Quite possibly if I were a nomadic tribesman living on the steppes of the Levant I might well use a rod to stop my child naively straying where wolves might devour him, say; painful as that would be for both of us the alternative would be far worse. It's important to note the change that the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus has brought. Clearly a Christian should model in their relationship with their children the relationship that God shows them - God is merciful and gracious towards us. This in the context of discipline of children means that it is clearly wrong then for a parent to punish when the intention is not discipline and growth towards improvement and fulfilment. One must be careful to look at the whole context. [ Link to the verses quoted: http://www.biblegate way.com/passage/?sea rch=prov+13%3A24%2C+ 20%3A30%2C+23%3A13-1 4&version=NIV;NASB;M SG ] pbhj

11:45pm Wed 12 Feb 14

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

Or, in layman's terms - 'allow me to interpret that for you.'
Or, in layman's terms - 'allow me to interpret that for you.' GardenVarietyMushroom

1:47am Thu 13 Feb 14

gathin says...

Why to otherwise sane people go on about a book that was introduced in 1611 (king James bible) and where there are over 40,000 different denominations?
There's good and bad- you don't need to read a fictitious religios book to realise that beating anybody (let alone children) is pretty low- do you?
Why to otherwise sane people go on about a book that was introduced in 1611 (king James bible) and where there are over 40,000 different denominations? There's good and bad- you don't need to read a fictitious religios book to realise that beating anybody (let alone children) is pretty low- do you? gathin

5:22pm Thu 13 Feb 14

varteg1 says...

pbhj wrote:
It's an interesting observation you make that "the Bible doesn’t support beating children as a punishment" .

Perhaps you can see now how limited snippets can be a problem when attempting to study the wisdom - and otherwise - recorded in the Bible.

You claim falsely that "whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod" is God's counsel. Certainly your selected verses do not say anything of the sort nor have I read this suggestion, nor heard it espoused in any Christian fellowship nor is it consistent with Jesus message.

Proverbs 13:24 finishes by saying that "the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them". Notice that word "discipline". Discipline is about learning to correct yourself, the intention is not punishment. You'll no doubt have noticed that earlier in chapter 13 the writer notes that whilst wise words are advantageous the treacherous resort to violence (Proverbs 13:2).

The sayings in Proverbs are, well, proverbs. We are not entreated that the words recorded are to always be heeded, nor are they recorded as instructions from God. Instead as with all scripture we are to use our minds and meditate upon it - the guidance too of the Holy Spirit is vital.

The Message, a figurative translation puts Proverbs 23:13-14 in this way:

"Don’t be afraid to correct your young ones;
a spanking won’t kill them.
A good spanking, in fact, might save them
from something worse than death."

I've smacked my child on the bottom to stop them running out in to the road. It worked and their road discipline was exceptional afterwards. Similarly a smack on the hand has prevented burns.

Quite possibly if I were a nomadic tribesman living on the steppes of the Levant I might well use a rod to stop my child naively straying where wolves might devour him, say; painful as that would be for both of us the alternative would be far worse.

It's important to note the change that the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus has brought. Clearly a Christian should model in their relationship with their children the relationship that God shows them - God is merciful and gracious towards us. This in the context of discipline of children means that it is clearly wrong then for a parent to punish when the intention is not discipline and growth towards improvement and fulfilment.

One must be careful to look at the whole context.

..... I've smacked my child on the bottom to stop them running out in to the road. It worked and their road discipline was exceptional afterwards. Similarly a smack on the hand has prevented burns. Quite possibly if I were a nomadic tribesman living on the steppes of the Levant I might well use a rod to stop my child naively straying where wolves might devour him, say; painful as that would be for both of us the alternative would be far worse



So what is 'religious' about such a regime, or is it because some clot claimed the word of the Almighty came down and more or less stated the bleedin' obvious? A claim that much later than the original scribe wrote it into some text in prehistorical times, more then likely passed it along by word of mouth, got mixed up with common sense behaviour, which all parents have been practicing ever since the first woman gave birth to the first child?

We don't need religion to tell us what we would do as an act of natural pattern, but by formalising these sort of behavioural patterns and codifying them under a cloud of fantasy and setting them into a book which was marginally sensible for the time cannot be taken as setting a pattern for social and parental behaviour in the 21st century,
We have societal laws to serve that purpose.
[quote][p][bold]pbhj[/bold] wrote: It's an interesting observation you make that "the Bible doesn’t support beating children as a punishment" [incomplete quotation]. Perhaps you can see now how limited snippets can be a problem when attempting to study the wisdom - and otherwise - recorded in the Bible. You claim falsely that "whenever children get out of line, we should beat them with a rod" is God's counsel. Certainly your selected verses do not say anything of the sort nor have I read this suggestion, nor heard it espoused in any Christian fellowship nor is it consistent with Jesus message. Proverbs 13:24 finishes by saying that "the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them". Notice that word "discipline". Discipline is about learning to correct yourself, the intention is not punishment. You'll no doubt have noticed that earlier in chapter 13 the writer notes that whilst wise words are advantageous the treacherous resort to violence (Proverbs 13:2). The sayings in Proverbs are, well, proverbs. We are not entreated that the words recorded are to always be heeded, nor are they recorded as instructions from God. Instead as with all scripture we are to use our minds and meditate upon it - the guidance too of the Holy Spirit is vital. The Message, a figurative translation puts Proverbs 23:13-14 in this way: "Don’t be afraid to correct your young ones; a spanking won’t kill them. A good spanking, in fact, might save them from something worse than death." [The Message (MSG)] I've smacked my child on the bottom to stop them running out in to the road. It worked and their road discipline was exceptional afterwards. Similarly a smack on the hand has prevented burns. Quite possibly if I were a nomadic tribesman living on the steppes of the Levant I might well use a rod to stop my child naively straying where wolves might devour him, say; painful as that would be for both of us the alternative would be far worse. It's important to note the change that the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus has brought. Clearly a Christian should model in their relationship with their children the relationship that God shows them - God is merciful and gracious towards us. This in the context of discipline of children means that it is clearly wrong then for a parent to punish when the intention is not discipline and growth towards improvement and fulfilment. One must be careful to look at the whole context. [ Link to the verses quoted: http://www.biblegate way.com/passage/?sea rch=prov+13%3A24%2C+ 20%3A30%2C+23%3A13-1 4&version=NIV;NA SB;M SG ][/p][/quote]..... I've smacked my child on the bottom to stop them running out in to the road. It worked and their road discipline was exceptional afterwards. Similarly a smack on the hand has prevented burns. Quite possibly if I were a nomadic tribesman living on the steppes of the Levant I might well use a rod to stop my child naively straying where wolves might devour him, say; painful as that would be for both of us the alternative would be far worse So what is 'religious' about such a regime, or is it because some clot claimed the word of the Almighty came down and more or less stated the bleedin' obvious? A claim that much later than the original scribe wrote it into some text in prehistorical times, more then likely passed it along by word of mouth, got mixed up with common sense behaviour, which all parents have been practicing ever since the first woman gave birth to the first child? We don't need religion to tell us what we would do as an act of natural pattern, but by formalising these sort of behavioural patterns and codifying them under a cloud of fantasy and setting them into a book which was marginally sensible for the time cannot be taken as setting a pattern for social and parental behaviour in the 21st century, We have societal laws to serve that purpose. varteg1

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