No logic

THE DISPARITY between rich and poor does not arise by chance, it is encouraged by government, people living on benefits or low paid workers have seen living standards fall for years as ministers have cut the real value of their incomes.

Private sector workers are hamstrung by the low density of trade union membership and influence, as recently as the 1970s, most people were covered by wages council rulings, stripped away by Thatcher which removed a level of protection that the minimum wage has failed to replicate.

Employers and ministers are united in forcing down workers pay, the excuse being its necessary to protect employment levels, if this really was the case, there would be no company directors, commodity brokers and city traders (sharks) because they would have, as the jargon says, priced themselves out of their jobs, because those at the top decided corporate priorities that favour the elite, as do ministers, that is where their logic breaks down.

Mr T. King Five Locks Road Cwmbran

Comments (19)

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6:51pm Fri 4 Jul 14

Bobevans says...

Actually it is the other way around those on benefits have seen their incomes rise whilst those working have seen them fall
Actually it is the other way around those on benefits have seen their incomes rise whilst those working have seen them fall Bobevans
  • Score: 3

8:15pm Fri 4 Jul 14

pwlldu says...

Blame the people on benefit, such an easy target. Bob you haven't been unemployed, I spent a year on the dole living on £65 per month. Still expected to pay my mortgage.
Blame the people on benefit, such an easy target. Bob you haven't been unemployed, I spent a year on the dole living on £65 per month. Still expected to pay my mortgage. pwlldu
  • Score: -4

8:21pm Fri 4 Jul 14

Mervyn James says...

Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own. Mervyn James
  • Score: -3

11:21pm Fri 4 Jul 14

Sally121 says...

Mervyn James says ' welfare fiddlers less than 5%'. Like to know where he got that figure from, or did he pluck it from the air. Very naive, needs to get in the real word & smell the coffee.
Mervyn James says ' welfare fiddlers less than 5%'. Like to know where he got that figure from, or did he pluck it from the air. Very naive, needs to get in the real word & smell the coffee. Sally121
  • Score: 3

9:45am Sat 5 Jul 14

scraptheWAG says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
or as in the case of a friend of mine

incapacity benefit 105 per week, DLA 20 od Housing benefit £90 and incapacity benefit age addition £20 + council tax £20 per week = £250 approx per week he also has a job driving a van £60 quid a week.

Not a bad little package for working 8 hours a week.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]or as in the case of a friend of mine incapacity benefit 105 per week, DLA 20 od Housing benefit £90 and incapacity benefit age addition £20 + council tax £20 per week = £250 approx per week he also has a job driving a van £60 quid a week. Not a bad little package for working 8 hours a week. scraptheWAG
  • Score: 3

1:17am Sun 6 Jul 14

Howie' says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%. Howie'
  • Score: -4

1:21am Sun 6 Jul 14

Howie' says...

Bobevans wrote:
Actually it is the other way around those on benefits have seen their incomes rise whilst those working have seen them fall
Bobby Boy, you show me your evidence and I will show you mine............but just like your previous hundreds of bull s**t posts you don't have any....do you BSBob?
[quote][p][bold]Bobevans[/bold] wrote: Actually it is the other way around those on benefits have seen their incomes rise whilst those working have seen them fall[/p][/quote]Bobby Boy, you show me your evidence and I will show you mine............but just like your previous hundreds of bull s**t posts you don't have any....do you BSBob? Howie'
  • Score: -5

1:33am Sun 6 Jul 14

Howie' says...

Sally121 wrote:
Mervyn James says ' welfare fiddlers less than 5%'. Like to know where he got that figure from, or did he pluck it from the air. Very naive, needs to get in the real word & smell the coffee.
Well Sally I think it's you who needs to smell the Coffee:

http://blogs.channel
4.com/factcheck/how-
much-does-benefit-fr
aud-cost/3423

There's a lot more info out there, just google it, a lot on Government sites and the Office of National Statistics (ONS). Stop reading the Beano and educate yourself.

Ps, Merv was wrong it's 0.7%
[quote][p][bold]Sally121[/bold] wrote: Mervyn James says ' welfare fiddlers less than 5%'. Like to know where he got that figure from, or did he pluck it from the air. Very naive, needs to get in the real word & smell the coffee.[/p][/quote]Well Sally I think it's you who needs to smell the Coffee: http://blogs.channel 4.com/factcheck/how- much-does-benefit-fr aud-cost/3423 There's a lot more info out there, just google it, a lot on Government sites and the Office of National Statistics (ONS). Stop reading the Beano and educate yourself. Ps, Merv was wrong it's 0.7% Howie'
  • Score: -4

8:53am Sun 6 Jul 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Howie' wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence)
http://www.barrheadn
ews.com/news/roundup
/articles/2013/09/25
/473142-barrhead-ben
efit-fraud-mum-avoid
s-jail/
http://www.southwale
s-eveningpost.co.uk/
Couple-masks-sentenc
ed-108-000-benefit-f
raud/story-21133696-
detail/story.html
[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.[/p][/quote]It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence) http://www.barrheadn ews.com/news/roundup /articles/2013/09/25 /473142-barrhead-ben efit-fraud-mum-avoid s-jail/ http://www.southwale s-eveningpost.co.uk/ Couple-masks-sentenc ed-108-000-benefit-f raud/story-21133696- detail/story.html Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 4

10:34am Sun 6 Jul 14

Mervyn James says...

There are variations on government sites, 5% was the general figure for 'Disability' payouts. However the DWP and IDS have penalised 41% . .7% or not.
There are variations on government sites, 5% was the general figure for 'Disability' payouts. However the DWP and IDS have penalised 41% . .7% or not. Mervyn James
  • Score: -4

10:43am Sun 6 Jul 14

Howie' says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence)
http://www.barrheadn

ews.com/news/roundup

/articles/2013/09/25

/473142-barrhead-ben

efit-fraud-mum-avoid

s-jail/
http://www.southwale

s-eveningpost.co.uk/

Couple-masks-sentenc

ed-108-000-benefit-f

raud/story-21133696-

detail/story.html
Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.[/p][/quote]It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence) http://www.barrheadn ews.com/news/roundup /articles/2013/09/25 /473142-barrhead-ben efit-fraud-mum-avoid s-jail/ http://www.southwale s-eveningpost.co.uk/ Couple-masks-sentenc ed-108-000-benefit-f raud/story-21133696- detail/story.html[/p][/quote]Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate. Howie'
  • Score: -5

10:56am Sun 6 Jul 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Howie' wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence)
http://www.barrheadn


ews.com/news/roundup


/articles/2013/09/25


/473142-barrhead-ben


efit-fraud-mum-avoid


s-jail/
http://www.southwale


s-eveningpost.co.uk/


Couple-masks-sentenc


ed-108-000-benefit-f


raud/story-21133696-


detail/story.html
Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.
That's just my point. No-one has the evidence, including the Government. If cases can go ten years or more without discovery then clearly no-one has a handle on it.
[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.[/p][/quote]It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence) http://www.barrheadn ews.com/news/roundup /articles/2013/09/25 /473142-barrhead-ben efit-fraud-mum-avoid s-jail/ http://www.southwale s-eveningpost.co.uk/ Couple-masks-sentenc ed-108-000-benefit-f raud/story-21133696- detail/story.html[/p][/quote]Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.[/p][/quote]That's just my point. No-one has the evidence, including the Government. If cases can go ten years or more without discovery then clearly no-one has a handle on it. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 5

11:03am Sun 6 Jul 14

Howie' says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence)
http://www.barrheadn



ews.com/news/roundup



/articles/2013/09/25



/473142-barrhead-ben



efit-fraud-mum-avoid



s-jail/
http://www.southwale



s-eveningpost.co.uk/



Couple-masks-sentenc



ed-108-000-benefit-f



raud/story-21133696-



detail/story.html
Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.
That's just my point. No-one has the evidence, including the Government. If cases can go ten years or more without discovery then clearly no-one has a handle on it.
Well the Government and the ONS firmly believe that they have the statistical evidence Martin and they have produced that evidence, as I asked earlier wheres your evidence that they are wrong?
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.[/p][/quote]It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence) http://www.barrheadn ews.com/news/roundup /articles/2013/09/25 /473142-barrhead-ben efit-fraud-mum-avoid s-jail/ http://www.southwale s-eveningpost.co.uk/ Couple-masks-sentenc ed-108-000-benefit-f raud/story-21133696- detail/story.html[/p][/quote]Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.[/p][/quote]That's just my point. No-one has the evidence, including the Government. If cases can go ten years or more without discovery then clearly no-one has a handle on it.[/p][/quote]Well the Government and the ONS firmly believe that they have the statistical evidence Martin and they have produced that evidence, as I asked earlier wheres your evidence that they are wrong? Howie'
  • Score: -4

11:09am Sun 6 Jul 14

Stevenboy says...

Howie' wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence)
http://www.barrheadn




ews.com/news/roundup




/articles/2013/09/25




/473142-barrhead-ben




efit-fraud-mum-avoid




s-jail/
http://www.southwale




s-eveningpost.co.uk/




Couple-masks-sentenc




ed-108-000-benefit-f




raud/story-21133696-




detail/story.html
Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.
That's just my point. No-one has the evidence, including the Government. If cases can go ten years or more without discovery then clearly no-one has a handle on it.
Well the Government and the ONS firmly believe that they have the statistical evidence Martin and they have produced that evidence, as I asked earlier wheres your evidence that they are wrong?
Is it not the case that you can only know the number of fish in a lake by draining it and counting them and not by going by how many the anglers pull out? As with many things the Government tell us, they don't actually know. For example, ever heard HMG give an accurate number on immigration? Thought not.
[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.[/p][/quote]It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence) http://www.barrheadn ews.com/news/roundup /articles/2013/09/25 /473142-barrhead-ben efit-fraud-mum-avoid s-jail/ http://www.southwale s-eveningpost.co.uk/ Couple-masks-sentenc ed-108-000-benefit-f raud/story-21133696- detail/story.html[/p][/quote]Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.[/p][/quote]That's just my point. No-one has the evidence, including the Government. If cases can go ten years or more without discovery then clearly no-one has a handle on it.[/p][/quote]Well the Government and the ONS firmly believe that they have the statistical evidence Martin and they have produced that evidence, as I asked earlier wheres your evidence that they are wrong?[/p][/quote]Is it not the case that you can only know the number of fish in a lake by draining it and counting them and not by going by how many the anglers pull out? As with many things the Government tell us, they don't actually know. For example, ever heard HMG give an accurate number on immigration? Thought not. Stevenboy
  • Score: 4

11:25am Sun 6 Jul 14

Sally121 says...

Merv says
"I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%"

Whats that phrase?, 'lies, damned lies & statistics'. I see the Government propaganda machine has done its job on Howie believing anything they tell him.

Howie also says 'I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate'.

What nonsense, firstly the Government are hardly going to tell us its a massive battle they are no where near winning, want the public to believe they are doing a good job & you will be caught if you fiddle, secondly to do with what statistics are recorded & thirdly the limited resources put into fraud investigation will tell you they & the Government probably have no idea of the true extent of fraud. They only know what fraud they have detected.

I think it is you Howie who needs to educate yourself. No point in saying do some research because you will believe anything you read.
Merv says "I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%" Whats that phrase?, 'lies, damned lies & statistics'. I see the Government propaganda machine has done its job on Howie believing anything they tell him. Howie also says 'I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate'. What nonsense, firstly the Government are hardly going to tell us its a massive battle they are no where near winning, want the public to believe they are doing a good job & you will be caught if you fiddle, secondly to do with what statistics are recorded & thirdly the limited resources put into fraud investigation will tell you they & the Government probably have no idea of the true extent of fraud. They only know what fraud they have detected. I think it is you Howie who needs to educate yourself. No point in saying do some research because you will believe anything you read. Sally121
  • Score: 3

11:31am Sun 6 Jul 14

Sally121 says...

Previous comment what Howie said not Merv, apologiesMerv
Previous comment what Howie said not Merv, apologiesMerv Sally121
  • Score: 0

6:48pm Sun 6 Jul 14

Bobevans says...

Howie' wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
ah the same old 0.7% fraud figure. The real level of fraud runs at over 205. Just read this paper and almost weekly you will get report of benefits fraud of between £10K and £150K

Even the best run companies cannot get fraud down to less then 1% and as sure as hell the government does not
[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.[/p][/quote]ah the same old 0.7% fraud figure. The real level of fraud runs at over 205. Just read this paper and almost weekly you will get report of benefits fraud of between £10K and £150K Even the best run companies cannot get fraud down to less then 1% and as sure as hell the government does not Bobevans
  • Score: -1

6:50pm Sun 6 Jul 14

Bobevans says...

Howie' wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Howie' wrote:
Mervyn James wrote:
Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic).

Age Weekly amount
16 to 24 £57.35
25 or over £72.40

Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels....

Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.
I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.
It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence)
http://www.barrheadn


ews.com/news/roundup


/articles/2013/09/25


/473142-barrhead-ben


efit-fraud-mum-avoid


s-jail/
http://www.southwale


s-eveningpost.co.uk/


Couple-masks-sentenc


ed-108-000-benefit-f


raud/story-21133696-


detail/story.html
Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.
WE had the first £1 Million benefits fraud only recently
[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: Wrong ! even those working and getting benefits are losing out. What are they getting on the dole ? (Government statistic). Age Weekly amount 16 to 24 £57.35 25 or over £72.40 Yeah, they are living the high life.... I notice you never let facts get in the way of a good rant. The largest sectors claiming benefits are the working poor, the amount of estimate welfare fiddlers ? less than 5%. Those who suffer the most ? The disabled, the sick, and the elderly, are among the lowest paid in the country, and the UK has 34% of its children below basic subsistence levels.... Bankers have had 64% pay rises this year, and employers 72% raises, those in work, got... 2-4%. Itis gratifying to read today making people work for nothing to get benefits was deemed illegal today. Looks like sainsbury's and Tesco's will have to start paying people. Which means the Tories Lord Sainsbury sends money too will be offering the condems some cuts of their own.[/p][/quote]I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%.[/p][/quote]It could just be that some people don't trust that number Howie. After all, in most cases that have come to light, even those reported on the Argus over the last 12 months, the fraud had been going on for in excess of ten years. Well if that's the kind of scrutiny the Government departments have on what is being claimed then the 0.7% figure is hardly likely to be that accurate. I doubt they have any clear idea what the scale of fraud actually is. Two examples for you (I know you like evidence) http://www.barrheadn ews.com/news/roundup /articles/2013/09/25 /473142-barrhead-ben efit-fraud-mum-avoid s-jail/ http://www.southwale s-eveningpost.co.uk/ Couple-masks-sentenc ed-108-000-benefit-f raud/story-21133696- detail/story.html[/p][/quote]Martin there are many instances reported in many newspapers over the years but that does not prove the ONS/ government figures wrong. If you have any evidence that they are wrong then please enlighten me. I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate.[/p][/quote]WE had the first £1 Million benefits fraud only recently Bobevans
  • Score: 4

11:12am Mon 7 Jul 14

Howie' says...

Sally121 wrote:
Merv says
"I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%"

Whats that phrase?, 'lies, damned lies & statistics'. I see the Government propaganda machine has done its job on Howie believing anything they tell him.

Howie also says 'I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate'.

What nonsense, firstly the Government are hardly going to tell us its a massive battle they are no where near winning, want the public to believe they are doing a good job & you will be caught if you fiddle, secondly to do with what statistics are recorded & thirdly the limited resources put into fraud investigation will tell you they & the Government probably have no idea of the true extent of fraud. They only know what fraud they have detected.

I think it is you Howie who needs to educate yourself. No point in saying do some research because you will believe anything you read.
'firstly the Government are hardly going to tell us its a massive battle they are no where near winning'

That Sally is rather naive and plain wrong. Cameron and Ian Duncan Smith have both tried to exaggerate the level of Welfare fraud because it fits in with their demonisation of those on benefits.

http://blogs.channel
4.com/factcheck/how-
much-does-benefit-fr
aud-cost/3423

Strange thing is Sally I can't find anywhere that the 0.7% figure is disputed, not even the Daily Hate (Mail). If you can show me any evidence that the Government is wrong I would appreciate it but please, no figures just plucked out of the air that suit your prejudices.

Here's something for you to chew on:

http://www.huffingto
npost.co.uk/mehdi-ha
san/welfare-budget-1
0-things-they-dont-t
ell-you_b_2314578.ht
ml
[quote][p][bold]Sally121[/bold] wrote: Merv says "I see your post has been marked down by the Sun/ Daily Mail readers Merv not withstanding that it is a pretty factual report except that the amount of fraud according to the ONS is not 5% it is in fact 0.7%" Whats that phrase?, 'lies, damned lies & statistics'. I see the Government propaganda machine has done its job on Howie believing anything they tell him. Howie also says 'I am pretty sure that if there was endemic fraud in the welfare system higher than 0.7% the Tories would be screaming the figure from the rooftops as justification of their attack on welfare and claimants. The fact that they don't ever make a reference to that figure tells me it is pretty accurate'. What nonsense, firstly the Government are hardly going to tell us its a massive battle they are no where near winning, want the public to believe they are doing a good job & you will be caught if you fiddle, secondly to do with what statistics are recorded & thirdly the limited resources put into fraud investigation will tell you they & the Government probably have no idea of the true extent of fraud. They only know what fraud they have detected. I think it is you Howie who needs to educate yourself. No point in saying do some research because you will believe anything you read.[/p][/quote]'firstly the Government are hardly going to tell us its a massive battle they are no where near winning' That Sally is rather naive and plain wrong. Cameron and Ian Duncan Smith have both tried to exaggerate the level of Welfare fraud because it fits in with their demonisation of those on benefits. http://blogs.channel 4.com/factcheck/how- much-does-benefit-fr aud-cost/3423 Strange thing is Sally I can't find anywhere that the 0.7% figure is disputed, not even the Daily Hate (Mail). If you can show me any evidence that the Government is wrong I would appreciate it but please, no figures just plucked out of the air that suit your prejudices. Here's something for you to chew on: http://www.huffingto npost.co.uk/mehdi-ha san/welfare-budget-1 0-things-they-dont-t ell-you_b_2314578.ht ml Howie'
  • Score: -5
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