It's our country

First published in Letters

IN REPLY to Mr A Nutt’s letter of July 10th, as a North Atlantic islander, I have no wish to have the laws that govern me made by a bunch of unelected, overpaid, egocentric, self-serving, inward looking little Hitlers that I am unable to remove from power.

I, and I dare suggest the silent British majority, do not wish to become a subservient part of the United States of Germany.

Ken Bowen Whitson Newport

Comments (16)

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12:44pm Mon 14 Jul 14

welshmen says...

Spot on Ken, get the British to Vote UKIP at the next General election and hopefully we can get out of the EU and take back control of our Country, but more important our boarders....
Spot on Ken, get the British to Vote UKIP at the next General election and hopefully we can get out of the EU and take back control of our Country, but more important our boarders.... welshmen
  • Score: 3

1:32pm Mon 14 Jul 14

throwy1 says...

I don't have a problem with the E.U. but would agree with you on support of UKIP. Its not the Europeans coming over that worries me but our "friends" from Asia Minor
I don't have a problem with the E.U. but would agree with you on support of UKIP. Its not the Europeans coming over that worries me but our "friends" from Asia Minor throwy1
  • Score: 2

3:44pm Mon 14 Jul 14

mkaibear1 says...

We *earn* money from European migrants (£400-500 per year). They don't cost us anything, we soak them for as much as we can get.

I'd rather not close our borders to people coming over here and cause my taxes to go up, thanks. Will be voting to stay in the EU when the Tories win the election and hold their referendum in 2017.
We *earn* money from European migrants (£400-500 per year). They don't cost us anything, we soak them for as much as we can get. I'd rather not close our borders to people coming over here and cause my taxes to go up, thanks. Will be voting to stay in the EU when the Tories win the election and hold their referendum in 2017. mkaibear1
  • Score: -4

6:52pm Mon 14 Jul 14

Mervyn James says...

Ad if the statistics are right 68% will be voting to cut Europe loose. I don't see a problem with Asian from India, I've worked with them and they speak better English than we do, know more about the UK than we do ! and they work damned hard too. However Europeans are taking us for mugs and I want out personally. I would suggest migrants from Europe and Pakistan/middle east do not get a free run to come here at all,and c certainly not their hordes of dependent families 'back home' Look at any corner shop and see all these Europeans with wads of notes sending it all OUT of Britain, there is nothing being put back in by these people, and, we are feeding their families who have never set foot here, because their own countries won't (aka EUROPE !), freedom of movement simply means they send their poor, their criminals, and unemployed here. Tories win ? lol NOT in Wales. As noted here many times, we would vote for any party but them.
Ad if the statistics are right 68% will be voting to cut Europe loose. I don't see a problem with Asian from India, I've worked with them and they speak better English than we do, know more about the UK than we do ! and they work damned hard too. However Europeans are taking us for mugs and I want out personally. I would suggest migrants from Europe and Pakistan/middle east do not get a free run to come here at all,and c certainly not their hordes of dependent families 'back home' Look at any corner shop and see all these Europeans with wads of notes sending it all OUT of Britain, there is nothing being put back in by these people, and, we are feeding their families who have never set foot here, because their own countries won't (aka EUROPE !), freedom of movement simply means they send their poor, their criminals, and unemployed here. Tories win ? lol NOT in Wales. As noted here many times, we would vote for any party but them. Mervyn James
  • Score: 4

7:07pm Mon 14 Jul 14

mkaibear1 says...

Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave...

Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers.

The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.
Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave... Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers. The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate. mkaibear1
  • Score: -2

7:44am Tue 15 Jul 14

Llanmartinangel says...

mkaibear1 wrote:
Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave...

Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers.

The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.
I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do.
[quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave... Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers. The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.[/p][/quote]I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 1

9:09am Tue 15 Jul 14

mkaibear1 says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
mkaibear1 wrote:
Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave...

Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers.

The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.
I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do.
Yeah, sorry, I didn't attribute my stats, just stated them as fact. That's not the way to conduct an argument!

My stats were all taken from a paper called "The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK" by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini.

It can be found here; http://www.cream-mig
ration.org/publ_uplo
ads/CDP_22_13.pdf
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave... Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers. The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.[/p][/quote]I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do.[/p][/quote]Yeah, sorry, I didn't attribute my stats, just stated them as fact. That's not the way to conduct an argument! My stats were all taken from a paper called "The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK" by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini. It can be found here; http://www.cream-mig ration.org/publ_uplo ads/CDP_22_13.pdf mkaibear1
  • Score: -4

10:19pm Tue 15 Jul 14

Llanmartinangel says...

mkaibear1 wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
mkaibear1 wrote:
Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave...

Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers.

The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.
I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do.
Yeah, sorry, I didn't attribute my stats, just stated them as fact. That's not the way to conduct an argument!

My stats were all taken from a paper called "The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK" by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini.

It can be found here; http://www.cream-mig

ration.org/publ_uplo

ads/CDP_22_13.pdf
Perhaps. But that's one study based on a huge number of variables and, by definition, assumptions. It also begs the question, why, if immigration is so lucrative, was it necessary for Brown to introduce or raise 140 taxes during the biggest influx of people this country has ever seen? I'm not denouncing it, just retaining a healthy scepticism.
[quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave... Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers. The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.[/p][/quote]I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do.[/p][/quote]Yeah, sorry, I didn't attribute my stats, just stated them as fact. That's not the way to conduct an argument! My stats were all taken from a paper called "The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK" by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini. It can be found here; http://www.cream-mig ration.org/publ_uplo ads/CDP_22_13.pdf[/p][/quote]Perhaps. But that's one study based on a huge number of variables and, by definition, assumptions. It also begs the question, why, if immigration is so lucrative, was it necessary for Brown to introduce or raise 140 taxes during the biggest influx of people this country has ever seen? I'm not denouncing it, just retaining a healthy scepticism. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 3

10:35am Wed 16 Jul 14

pwlldu says...

Ken Bowen You have no wish to have the laws that govern me made by a bunch of unelected MP's, overpaid MP's, egocentric MP's, self-serving MP's, inward looking little Maggie Thatchers that I am unable to remove from power. Well wake up Wales is governed by London and the English 4 parties. when did Wales last vote for a majority Tory party. The EU send MEP's to Europe the one we voted for. Its a pity that under big Dave the UK sits on the sidelines.
Ken Bowen You have no wish to have the laws that govern me made by a bunch of unelected MP's, overpaid MP's, egocentric MP's, self-serving MP's, inward looking little Maggie Thatchers that I am unable to remove from power. Well wake up Wales is governed by London and the English 4 parties. when did Wales last vote for a majority Tory party. The EU send MEP's to Europe the one we voted for. Its a pity that under big Dave the UK sits on the sidelines. pwlldu
  • Score: -1

10:44am Wed 16 Jul 14

pwlldu says...

UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5%
Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4%
Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9%
Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9%
Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9%

More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government.
UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5% Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4% Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9% Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9% Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9% More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government. pwlldu
  • Score: 0

11:09am Wed 16 Jul 14

mkaibear1 says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
mkaibear1 wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
mkaibear1 wrote:
Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave...

Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers.

The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.
I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do.
Yeah, sorry, I didn't attribute my stats, just stated them as fact. That's not the way to conduct an argument!

My stats were all taken from a paper called "The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK" by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini.

It can be found here; http://www.cream-mig


ration.org/publ_uplo


ads/CDP_22_13.pdf
Perhaps. But that's one study based on a huge number of variables and, by definition, assumptions. It also begs the question, why, if immigration is so lucrative, was it necessary for Brown to introduce or raise 140 taxes during the biggest influx of people this country has ever seen? I'm not denouncing it, just retaining a healthy scepticism.
True, there are always assumptions in any research. They have done a good job of stating them and providing the underlying data though which suggests that they're confident in their assumptions and their conclusions.

>Why was it necessary for Brown to introduce or raise 140 taxes

Because he was a Labour chancellor? Tax-and-spend, tax-and-spend. The main reason we're in the economic mess we're in at the moment!
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: Odd assertion when the latest IPSO MORI poll has 54% wanting to stay in the EU, and 37% to leave... Anyway it's simple maths. Migrants bring in money and spend it in our local economy. However much they are sending home they are still paying taxes, they are still buying food and rental accommodation here, they are still putting money back into the country's coffers. The Tories won't win in Wales, Scotland or NI but they will win more than enough seats in England to compensate.[/p][/quote]I'm not entirely sure that assertion makes sense. For a start, we are always being told they take low paid jobs in service environments. Income tax doesn't even start until you earn £10k so they can't be paying that much. In addition, they still use services like NHS which is having to be expanded to cope. Add then the benefits we pay to the people born here who could have been made to take those jobs and it's much cloudier than you'd have us believe. Finally there is a concern about imported crime and the addition costs to the police and justice system. I certainly don't know if they bring benefit to the economy but I'm suspicious of anyone who claims to state unequivocally that they do.[/p][/quote]Yeah, sorry, I didn't attribute my stats, just stated them as fact. That's not the way to conduct an argument! My stats were all taken from a paper called "The Fiscal Effects of Immigration to the UK" by Christian Dustmann and Tommaso Frattini. It can be found here; http://www.cream-mig ration.org/publ_uplo ads/CDP_22_13.pdf[/p][/quote]Perhaps. But that's one study based on a huge number of variables and, by definition, assumptions. It also begs the question, why, if immigration is so lucrative, was it necessary for Brown to introduce or raise 140 taxes during the biggest influx of people this country has ever seen? I'm not denouncing it, just retaining a healthy scepticism.[/p][/quote]True, there are always assumptions in any research. They have done a good job of stating them and providing the underlying data though which suggests that they're confident in their assumptions and their conclusions. >Why was it necessary for Brown to introduce or raise 140 taxes Because he was a Labour chancellor? Tax-and-spend, tax-and-spend. The main reason we're in the economic mess we're in at the moment! mkaibear1
  • Score: 2

11:21am Wed 16 Jul 14

mkaibear1 says...

pwlldu wrote:
UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5%
Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4%
Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9%
Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9%
Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9%

More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government.
This. Exactly.

The Tories will promise a referendum in 2017 and that will take the wind out of UKIP's sails. UKIP voters (all but the most vehement) will realise that voting for UKIP will let Labour win the election and then there will be no referendum.

Once the country votes it will become clear that a majority favour being in Europe. It isn't a huge majority but it's a clear majority.

What remains to be decided is whether or not we'll end up as a fully integrated part of Europe, ratcheting in closer towards federalism or whether we'll end up as an adjunct country to the EU, a "trading partner with benefits" if you will.
[quote][p][bold]pwlldu[/bold] wrote: UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5% Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4% Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9% Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9% Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9% More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government.[/p][/quote]This. Exactly. The Tories will promise a referendum in 2017 and that will take the wind out of UKIP's sails. UKIP voters (all but the most vehement) will realise that voting for UKIP will let Labour win the election and then there will be no referendum. Once the country votes it will become clear that a majority favour being in Europe. It isn't a huge majority but it's a clear majority. What remains to be decided is whether or not we'll end up as a fully integrated part of Europe, ratcheting in closer towards federalism or whether we'll end up as an adjunct country to the EU, a "trading partner with benefits" if you will. mkaibear1
  • Score: 0

6:44pm Wed 16 Jul 14

Mervyn James says...

mkaibear1 wrote:
pwlldu wrote:
UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5%
Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4%
Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9%
Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9%
Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9%

More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government.
This. Exactly.

The Tories will promise a referendum in 2017 and that will take the wind out of UKIP's sails. UKIP voters (all but the most vehement) will realise that voting for UKIP will let Labour win the election and then there will be no referendum.

Once the country votes it will become clear that a majority favour being in Europe. It isn't a huge majority but it's a clear majority.

What remains to be decided is whether or not we'll end up as a fully integrated part of Europe, ratcheting in closer towards federalism or whether we'll end up as an adjunct country to the EU, a "trading partner with benefits" if you will.
This is based on a voting system we don't use, proportional representation. if you advocate that, then the UKIP would be running wales via Europe today. Just because labour and lib-dems luv Europe and the tories still back pedaling, you cannot use the argument the 'majority' are pro, our voting system says not, first past the post wins, or not, the tories weren't they still got there.. Some joker quoted to me Westminster was the mother of all parliaments, pity democracy was not set out at day one....
[quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]pwlldu[/bold] wrote: UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5% Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4% Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9% Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9% Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9% More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government.[/p][/quote]This. Exactly. The Tories will promise a referendum in 2017 and that will take the wind out of UKIP's sails. UKIP voters (all but the most vehement) will realise that voting for UKIP will let Labour win the election and then there will be no referendum. Once the country votes it will become clear that a majority favour being in Europe. It isn't a huge majority but it's a clear majority. What remains to be decided is whether or not we'll end up as a fully integrated part of Europe, ratcheting in closer towards federalism or whether we'll end up as an adjunct country to the EU, a "trading partner with benefits" if you will.[/p][/quote]This is based on a voting system we don't use, proportional representation. if you advocate that, then the UKIP would be running wales via Europe today. Just because labour and lib-dems luv Europe and the tories still back pedaling, you cannot use the argument the 'majority' are pro, our voting system says not, first past the post wins, or not, the tories weren't they still got there.. Some joker quoted to me Westminster was the mother of all parliaments, pity democracy was not set out at day one.... Mervyn James
  • Score: -1

9:49am Thu 17 Jul 14

pwlldu says...

Mervyn James says... one swallow don't make a summer. UKIP are a one party policy. They will soon jump on the main parties bandwagon, they might even purge Maggie's 1980's Tory manifesto.
Mervyn James says... one swallow don't make a summer. UKIP are a one party policy. They will soon jump on the main parties bandwagon, they might even purge Maggie's 1980's Tory manifesto. pwlldu
  • Score: -1

10:13am Thu 17 Jul 14

mkaibear1 says...

Mervyn James wrote:
mkaibear1 wrote:
pwlldu wrote:
UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5%
Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4%
Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9%
Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9%
Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9%

More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government.
This. Exactly.

The Tories will promise a referendum in 2017 and that will take the wind out of UKIP's sails. UKIP voters (all but the most vehement) will realise that voting for UKIP will let Labour win the election and then there will be no referendum.

Once the country votes it will become clear that a majority favour being in Europe. It isn't a huge majority but it's a clear majority.

What remains to be decided is whether or not we'll end up as a fully integrated part of Europe, ratcheting in closer towards federalism or whether we'll end up as an adjunct country to the EU, a "trading partner with benefits" if you will.
This is based on a voting system we don't use, proportional representation. if you advocate that, then the UKIP would be running wales via Europe today. Just because labour and lib-dems luv Europe and the tories still back pedaling, you cannot use the argument the 'majority' are pro, our voting system says not, first past the post wins, or not, the tories weren't they still got there.. Some joker quoted to me Westminster was the mother of all parliaments, pity democracy was not set out at day one....
The problem is Mervyn that most opinion polls (not just the proportional representation) have shown that the UK doesn't want to leave the EU, especially once the terms have been renegotiated.

Aggregate polling suggests that it's 40.04% in favour of staying and 39.99% in favour of leaving (with roughly 20% undecided) on the current terms, and 51.9% in favour of staying in and 25.4% in favour of leaving (with roughly 24% undecided) post renegotiation.

(aggregation of 2014 polls by YouGov, the Sun, the Sunday Times, The Observer, ITV, IPSOS MORI, and a few others)
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]mkaibear1[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]pwlldu[/bold] wrote: UKIP: UK share of the vote, 27.5% Labour: UK share of the vote, 25.4% Conservative: UK share of the vote, 23.9% Green: UK share of the vote, 7.9% Lib Dem: UK share of the vote, 6.9% More people are pro Europe that anti Europe. Once the Tories get their act together more UKIP voters will drift back. If Scotland vote YES then labour would have fewer MP's which would give the Tories a good chance to win the next few general election. So my vote and every non Tory voter would be useless, as we can't change the London government.[/p][/quote]This. Exactly. The Tories will promise a referendum in 2017 and that will take the wind out of UKIP's sails. UKIP voters (all but the most vehement) will realise that voting for UKIP will let Labour win the election and then there will be no referendum. Once the country votes it will become clear that a majority favour being in Europe. It isn't a huge majority but it's a clear majority. What remains to be decided is whether or not we'll end up as a fully integrated part of Europe, ratcheting in closer towards federalism or whether we'll end up as an adjunct country to the EU, a "trading partner with benefits" if you will.[/p][/quote]This is based on a voting system we don't use, proportional representation. if you advocate that, then the UKIP would be running wales via Europe today. Just because labour and lib-dems luv Europe and the tories still back pedaling, you cannot use the argument the 'majority' are pro, our voting system says not, first past the post wins, or not, the tories weren't they still got there.. Some joker quoted to me Westminster was the mother of all parliaments, pity democracy was not set out at day one....[/p][/quote]The problem is Mervyn that most opinion polls (not just the proportional representation) have shown that the UK doesn't want to leave the EU, especially once the terms have been renegotiated. Aggregate polling suggests that it's 40.04% in favour of staying and 39.99% in favour of leaving (with roughly 20% undecided) on the current terms, and 51.9% in favour of staying in and 25.4% in favour of leaving (with roughly 24% undecided) post renegotiation. (aggregation of 2014 polls by YouGov, the Sun, the Sunday Times, The Observer, ITV, IPSOS MORI, and a few others) mkaibear1
  • Score: -1

11:14pm Sat 19 Jul 14

pwlldu says...

The MEP's have all been elected by the people of the country they represent. Ken's letters is like the people of Kent got no say in the London government.
The MEP's have all been elected by the people of the country they represent. Ken's letters is like the people of Kent got no say in the London government. pwlldu
  • Score: 2

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