Hate messages unacceptable

12:20pm Wednesday 10th October 2012 in Letters

TWO recent letters in the Argus regarding bilingual posts and signs were, frankly, racist postings that deteriorated in the letters online area.

We read language fascists and abusive language that, if it were aimed at any other minority in Wales, would result in court action. The Welsh language is enshrined in law, yet attacked on an almost daily basis with no comeback – again a situation that doesn’t happen to any other minority in Wales. Isn’t it time the Argus monitored these hate messages against the Welsh speaker? It’s one thing to question bilingual access, quite another to ridicule and attack the people using it. When it gets personal, it is hate and bullying, nothing less.

Mervyn James, Kensington Grove, Newport

Comments(41)

Owain Vaughan says...
12:40pm Wed 10 Oct 12

Even if people were attacking the Welsh language itself (which they weren't) that IS NOT RACISM! A Welsh speaker can come from any race. Using words such as "racism" in such a trivial matter undermines the meaning of the word and the real hurt it does to those who are actually victims of it.

No-one is above criticism. No particular religious, ethnic or cultural group deserves special status or defence from critical analysis.

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
1:03pm Wed 10 Oct 12

O Vaughan - quite right. I can appreciate his concern (about what i don't know!) but he has really pushed a simple thing like dual use on forms to the whole ambit of Welsh culture.

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
3:57pm Wed 10 Oct 12

merv - you are very quiet now your in the front seat.

Report this post »

Llanmartinangel says...
6:16pm Wed 10 Oct 12

I think the debate was around whether the money spent on Welsh was wisely spent. Anyone reading back through that thread will see that, some people expressed views that, any amount was justified. Others, and I'm one, believe that the scattergun approach to documentation and compulsory education, regardless of the recipients personal wishes is by definition extreme. Especially when anyone living in Wales sees how basic services lack investment. We are all adults here. For crying out loud, tough up and grow up.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
6:52pm Wed 10 Oct 12

I didn't. What was said was the access to bi-lingual communications was an inherent RIGHT, established in law for the minority in Wales that speak and use the welsh language. My stance is then that cost does not come into it, the equality right is established.

The cost/cut argument is used to withdraw support for disabled and terminally ill people too, I find it repugnant, and the name-calling unfair. I think you will find the Human Rights Act also covers this access. Trying to still complain about what is legal right is a red herring, the bile is there for anyone to read.

Access has been debated in the ENGLISH Parliament who established it is valid. Welsh speakers still have been called fascists, Nationalistic, anti-English and worse, to use 'cost' as a trojan horse to attack again the use of the Welsh language, when the commentators have already stated they don't read it anyway, maybe they don't welsh speakers DO.

It is their right. End of.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
7:13pm Wed 10 Oct 12

For anyone here not aware of the legal position:

Welsh Language Act 1993 and the Government of Wales Act 1998 provide that the Welsh and English languages should be treated equally.

Public bodies are required to prepare and implement a Welsh Language Scheme. Local councils and the Welsh Government use Welsh as an official language, issuing official literature and publicity in Welsh as well as in English.

Road signs in Wales are in English and Welsh, including the Welsh versions of place names.

Report this post »

Llanmartinangel says...
7:45pm Wed 10 Oct 12

Correct. It's a right. Absolutely, no argument. It's the compulsion that we object to. We all know youngsters who cannot speak our Queen's English, let alone Welsh who might benefit from a proper education. Wasting their time and everyone else's money and depriving them of their 'equal opportunities' with other British and International competitors, to force them to speak Welsh in the classroom is absurd. Especially when most of them will then leave school and never utter another word of it. Cultural compulsion and brainwashing (another word that might get sensitive people Googling the Human Rights Act) are not that far removed from each other. Are they?

Report this post »

Owain Vaughan says...
8:07pm Wed 10 Oct 12

Mervyn, you object to being called Nationalistic and then disingenuously call the UK Parliament the "English" parliament! Your true colours shining through perhaps?

Your whole "Welsh is a right" argument is a complete straw man. Our complaints are not directed against those people who wish to use the Welsh language, but at those who force it upon people that don't.

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
8:58pm Wed 10 Oct 12

merv - Yet again you have drawn in the wider Welsh stuff and the terminally ill.! You sure are well into this and still will not admit that dual use on forms is a waste of money and the Welsh goes straight in the bin. Not only that you are trying to convince us that the few who do know Welsh read it instead of the English version.!
A Newport saying for you Merv 'Don't kid a kiddder'.

Sorry to tell you but i will REPEAT the dual issue is a complete waste.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
8:46am Thu 11 Oct 12

There is no compulsion, there is fair access. You should be taking your points to the Law not to those who support the welsh language. The fact I support an independent Wales changes nothing from the fact all minorities are entitled to their equal access. I support all their rights, the issue here is focused on Welsh language ones.

alternatively: Nid oes unrhyw orfodaeth, bod mynediad teg. Dylech fod yn cymryd eich pwyntiau i'r Gyfraith nid i'r rhai sy'n cefnogi'r iaith Gymraeg. Mae'r ffaith fy mod yn cefnogi dim newidiadau annibynnol Cymru o'r ffaith pob lleiafrif yn cael eu hawl i gael eu mynediad cyfartal. Yr wyf yn cefnogi eu holl hawliau, y mater yma yn canolbwyntio ar rai iaith Gymraeg.

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
9:01am Thu 11 Oct 12

Merv - I wish you would indicate the writer you are answering. Very confusing. Haven't a clue what you are on about, regarding taking points to law.

I do notice however that you have ignored all my points in the last two bits.

Excellent Welsh Merv. Just pop down to Chepstow Road shops and try it on them. Should make your day when they tell you to clear off.

Also, some good letters in Western Mail today from people who could be related to you. And get a glance at todays SWA for letters from me and Brian Donovan.
Have a nice day now.

Report this post »

Owain Vaughan says...
9:25am Thu 11 Oct 12

Mervyn - you have admitted it! You are a separatist! Why do you want to split up Britain? What possible benefits could there be from putting up artificial barriers between people? I have family all over this country and I'm sure you do too. I don't want to be a foreigner in my own land! Absolute madness.

Report this post »

Llanmartinangel says...
11:06am Thu 11 Oct 12

Not to mention that an independent Wales would be so broke it would make Greece look like Monaco. Care to explain where the huge welfare budget would come from Merv? (that is if you can actually answer a question rather than rant). It goes to show how out of touch the 'Welsh at any cost' lobby really is.

Report this post »

On the inside says...
11:36am Thu 11 Oct 12

Llanmartinangel says...
Correct. It's a right. Absolutely, no argument. It's the compulsion that we object to.

Never mind Welsh, English comprehension is a bit of a struggle for you isn't it.

If it is a right it has to be compelled or it is not a right.

Report this post »

Llanmartinangel says...
11:59am Thu 11 Oct 12

And you clearly can't read it. Mervyn made the statement that it 'it is a right', with which I agreed but he added 'fair access'. Fair access is not the same as compulsion. Being given access to something doesn't mean you are compelled to take it, does it? IF, English only speakers are given the right to have their children educated in which language they want, then that is equal. IF I choose to have my official documentation in one language then that too is equal.

Report this post »

cwmbran man says...
3:29pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Cant you take this argument to a welsh language paper, im of the opinion bilingual forms are a waste of money, mine always go straight to the bin, if you want them in welsh you should be able to order them, there is zero need for them to be compulsory.

Report this post »

chris227 says...
7:23pm Thu 11 Oct 12

A good idea would be to take the NI numbers of the people who want welsh then split out the annual cost among those folk. and my taxes/council tax go on improving my run down town

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
7:50pm Thu 11 Oct 12

Owain Vaughan wrote:
Mervyn - you have admitted it! You are a separatist! Why do you want to split up Britain? What possible benefits could there be from putting up artificial barriers between people? I have family all over this country and I'm sure you do too. I don't want to be a foreigner in my own land! Absolute madness.
Coming from Monmouthshire you level that point at me ? Welsh speakers do not have to justify ANYTHING to the detractors here. The arguments are now so biased as to have become nonsensical. I'm backing Wales. NO way will I apologise for it, some people here need a life I'm afraid,there are so many pressing issues they can vent their spleen with. If they want a List I'll give it to them.

Report this post »

welshmen says...
8:19pm Thu 11 Oct 12

You Owain talking of separatist, for Labours years in power they have tried hard to get rid of Britishness at every opportunity also this poor excuse for a Government still flooding our country that's Great Briton with unwanted immigrants, i didn't vote for Millions of foreigners to come here,as most of the British people, except for the Liberal elite who want to turn the UK into a Marxist state of Eurpoe, our Welsh is important, once that's gone they will work on the Scots and or the Irish, it's OUR culture that is important, if the Welsh Assembly Government couldn't afford the Welsh and English forms then they wouldn't abolish the law that now make them uphold it. ASK your children or grandchildren what they are being taught in our Primary and Comprehensive Schools you might have a shock, all you posters on this site, with out being disrespectful are Nationalists, you care what happens in and to our Country...

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
8:27pm Thu 11 Oct 12

welshman - not quite sure what u are saying but whatever the dual forms are a waste. I keep saying it and this debate goes into all sorts of things. Merv for instance can't accept it and likes to think he is Owain Glyndwr. A sad sad fellow.
Agree with you about the immis.

Report this post »

chris227 says...
9:50pm Thu 11 Oct 12

so the people that want this stupid language are willing to pay for it???

Report this post »

chris227 says...
9:50pm Thu 11 Oct 12

so the people that want this stupid language are willing to pay for it???

Report this post »

chris227 says...
9:50pm Thu 11 Oct 12

so the people that want this stupid language are willing to pay for it???

Report this post »

chris227 says...
9:50pm Thu 11 Oct 12

so the people that want this stupid language are willing to pay for it???

Report this post »

Howie' says...
2:55pm Fri 12 Oct 12

chris227 wrote:
so the people that want this stupid language are willing to pay for it???
Run that past me again, Chris.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
4:13pm Fri 12 Oct 12

I think case proven with the last 6 responses don't you ?

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
4:35pm Fri 12 Oct 12

MERV - So you have appeared again eh. I thought you had emmigrated to Gwbert

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
11:12am Sun 14 Oct 12

Cymru Am Byth, Cymraeg am Byth

Report this post »

County says...
1:53pm Sun 14 Oct 12

The Welsh language today is basically a case of affirmative action. No number of second language speakers will stop a language from dying, look at Latin.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
2:11pm Sun 14 Oct 12

I'd rather not, but as an aside Latin is still in world-wide usage especially in the medical and botanical field. I remain 'affirmative' to the welsh language, it is an legal right of access after all.

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
2:12pm Sun 14 Oct 12

merv - give it a rest please

Report this post »

Dai Rear says...
6:32pm Sun 14 Oct 12

"didn't. What was said was the access to bi-lingual communications was an inherent RIGHT"
I don't think it can be a right because there's no concomitant duty. We do get ourselves in an awful mess with the overuse of the word. For example "Disability Rights" No one has a duty to be disabled so it doesn't work. The duty is to be decent to disabled people, is all.And County, Latin is alive and kicking; it lives on in Welsh, though it's hard to imagine how our ancestors didn't have words for the creature with a leg at each corner that you can ride on,or the bits that support the roof on a house, until the Roman legions marched westwards

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
9:33am Mon 15 Oct 12

Disability rights pertains to their access and support, and is linked directly to the basic Human rights laws. Society (That means us ALL), have an moral, ethical and legal obligation under law to respect those rights. That means we foot the bill too. I cannot understand anyone objecting to that. 1 in 4 have mental health problems, 1 in 3 have cancer issues etc etc, who ISN'T touched by disability in one form or another ? E.G Ceffyl is welsh for horse, Classical Latin: equus Vulgar Latin: caballus, seems welsh did have a word for it :)

Report this post »

Bobevans says...
9:40am Mon 15 Oct 12

In the end whether Merv likes it or not there is a finite budget for Wales.

He works on the basis of if he thinks it is a good idea as much money as needed dshould be spent on it.

He lacks commonsense and tends to be childish about it.

No posters here have said that Welsh should be banned. What has been said is that costs need to be controlled and money spent on Welsh only when there is a real demand

There is no reason at all for spending out bilingual forms. People should be able to elect in which language they wish to recieve it.

WAG papers etc should only be produced in English and even then should only be made available on line. Almost no one reads themin English and in Welsh the demnd is pretty much zero

THere is no need for road signs and marking to be in Welsh.It just introduce street clutter and increases the risk of accidents.

Recent reports show that safety is increased if unneccessary signage is removed. WE have all come acrros junctions where there are batteries of signs and it is impossible to take in all the information.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
6:41pm Mon 15 Oct 12

Consensus is you cannot attack the language access without attacking the persons using it, so it gets personal very quickly. I think attempts to water-down that legal right of access on just cos,t is pretty thin an argument personally. When you add personal insults like 'Welshies' and 'language fascists' the counter argument of 'cost' is zeroed, and moves toward discrimination and anti-cultural bias. I think more accidents are caused by adverts on hoardings than people seeing a welsh sign translation. Perhaps you can supply us all with statistics that state bi-lingual signage is an road hazard ?

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
6:58pm Mon 15 Oct 12

merv - you are getting boring and the latest is a load of tosh. I have been called a welshie on hols. No nastiness. Cost is not zeroed - it is a complete waste of money and you won't admit it.YOU are taking it personal, no-one else is.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
8:06am Tue 16 Oct 12

Cymru am Byth

Report this post »

chris227 says...
8:19am Tue 16 Oct 12

gwared ar y Gymraeg a llywodraeth y cynulliad

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
9:01am Tue 16 Oct 12

mara b'prangia

Report this post »

james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
9:02am Tue 16 Oct 12

merv - choopa mal a peecha

Report this post »

Llanmartinangel says...
10:33pm Tue 16 Oct 12

Bobevans wrote:
In the end whether Merv likes it or not there is a finite budget for Wales.

He works on the basis of if he thinks it is a good idea as much money as needed dshould be spent on it.

He lacks commonsense and tends to be childish about it.

No posters here have said that Welsh should be banned. What has been said is that costs need to be controlled and money spent on Welsh only when there is a real demand

There is no reason at all for spending out bilingual forms. People should be able to elect in which language they wish to recieve it.

WAG papers etc should only be produced in English and even then should only be made available on line. Almost no one reads themin English and in Welsh the demnd is pretty much zero

THere is no need for road signs and marking to be in Welsh.It just introduce street clutter and increases the risk of accidents.

Recent reports show that safety is increased if unneccessary signage is removed. WE have all come acrros junctions where there are batteries of signs and it is impossible to take in all the information.
Perfectly put. Surely no-one can argue with that?

Report this post »

click2find

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree