M4 relief road plan ‘unlawful’, say green lobbyists

South Wales Argus: M4 relief road plan ‘unlawful’, say green lobbyists M4 relief road plan ‘unlawful’, say green lobbyists

THE consultation on a proposed M4 relief road around Newport closed yesterday amid claims from a pressure group that the process was "unlawful" and "fatally flawed".

Friends of the Earth Cymru’s response to the consultation highlights what it believes are serious problems with the Welsh Government’s approach to a scheme to which it is fundamentally opposed.

Meanwhile, Newport Liberal Democrats have come out in favour of the M4 Relief Road, at odds with the party in Wales.

FoE Cymru attacks the proposals, and the Welsh Government, on four issues. It claims that :

• No business case has ever been published for the M4 around Newport;

• Traffic forecasts are hopelessly out of touch with reality;

• The Welsh Government has no statistics for congestion, the very problem it is attempting to address;

• The options did not include the so-called Blue Route, which FoE describes as cheaper and less environmentally damaging than a motorway over the Gwent Levels.

“Traffic in Wales has decreased year after year since 2007, and is now 4.4 per cent lower than it was at its peak," said Foe Cymru director Gareth Clubb.

"A combination of investment in public transport, active travel and some modest road improvements would deliver the government’s aims at a fraction of the cost."

He further claimed the Welsh Government's "failure to consider reasonable alternatives is unlawful" and called for a "fatally flawed" consultation to be withdrawn.

Newport Liberal Democrats meanwhile, want improved public transport to be a key part of the package, alongside an M4 Relief Road.

“By taking through traffic away from the existing M4 and retaining the links into the city from the existing M4, between Magor and Castleton, access to the city would be improved while at the same time easing congestion for through traffic,” they say in their consultation response.

They also reject the suggestion that the Southern Distributor Road and the Llanwern steelworks access road could be used to carry traffic away from the M4.

“It is time to stop messing about with this issue. South Wales needs the M4 Relief Road as soon as possible,” said Ed Townsend, Liberal Democrat councillor in St Julians, Newport.

The Welsh Liberal Democrats favour the Southern Distributor Road option, but councillor Townsend added that while the Newport party respects that view, "we have discussed this at length and believe the interests of Newport and the whole of South Wales are best served by building this M4 link."

Welsh Government officials will now study the consultation responses ahead of further announcements early next year.

Comments (42)

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9:54am Tue 17 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

I sometimes wonder if the only solution these people would be happy with is one that involves everyone commuting on the backs of flying unicorns (free range, obviously).

Seemingly every day there is a new headline in the Argus along the lines of "M4 crash causes delays". How many more lives will be lost or blighted through serious injury before it is accepted that the current road is unfit for purpose?
I sometimes wonder if the only solution these people would be happy with is one that involves everyone commuting on the backs of flying unicorns (free range, obviously). Seemingly every day there is a new headline in the Argus along the lines of "M4 crash causes delays". How many more lives will be lost or blighted through serious injury before it is accepted that the current road is unfit for purpose? _Bryan_

10:30am Tue 17 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

im sympathetic to friends of the earth's views, but the don't half come across as anti-progession.

though the fact WG dont have any statistics on congestion (the problem theyre trying to solve) is a bit worrying...
im sympathetic to friends of the earth's views, but the don't half come across as anti-progession. though the fact WG dont have any statistics on congestion (the problem theyre trying to solve) is a bit worrying... whatintheworld

11:28am Tue 17 Dec 13

lowandhardandinthecorner says...

You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4! lowandhardandinthecorner

11:46am Tue 17 Dec 13

Poolaboy58 says...

I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now.
I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now. Poolaboy58

11:47am Tue 17 Dec 13

daveyates3 says...

Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise).
We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer.

Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.
Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise). We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer. Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth. daveyates3

12:24pm Tue 17 Dec 13

NakedDancer says...

Upgrading the SDR woudn't help a sustainable transport solution in any sense.

Friends of the Earth need to realise that by picking the wrong issues and opposing every development they have lost the support of the vast majority of people that would otherwise support them. There is no local support for compromise alternatives to the M4 Relief road as those alternatives would not deliver the essential improvement needed ie capacity and resilience. If Mr Clubb and associates succeed with their petty delaying tactics then they are accountable for the deaths and injuries on the M4 that are occuring daily.
Upgrading the SDR woudn't help a sustainable transport solution in any sense. Friends of the Earth need to realise that by picking the wrong issues and opposing every development they have lost the support of the vast majority of people that would otherwise support them. There is no local support for compromise alternatives to the M4 Relief road as those alternatives would not deliver the essential improvement needed ie capacity and resilience. If Mr Clubb and associates succeed with their petty delaying tactics then they are accountable for the deaths and injuries on the M4 that are occuring daily. NakedDancer

12:28pm Tue 17 Dec 13

Radio Wales says...

daveyates3 wrote:
Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise).
We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer.

Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.
With respect, you are grasping at straws.

To say the answer is not the M4 shows a lamentable lack of understanding of the issues of infrastructure and economic reality.
The most profound reason for the gentle decline in traffic is that it is that people and businesses are completely fed up with losing money battling against the congestion and expense of trying to get around Newport. The reality is that Wales is slowly dying, starved of access and investment.

People are pressing the Newport case in a selfish attempt to ignore the interests of everywhere west including Ireland where the economy and prospects of those people depend on getting past Newport. The description of the gateway to Wales is undermined by the fact that is is nearly closed and people are looking for other more accessible places to spend their time and money. But even so, the case to improve the access for Newport is unassailable too. We are sick of accidents and traffic jams caused by the slightest hiccup anywhere within a 10 mile radius.

To suggest the Welsh Government have not considered the statistics and impact of the proposed M4 re-alignment is preposterous. It has been analysed to death over the last 30 years and every time the answer is exactly the same, but all the more urgent for all of us.

The wildlife will adapt. I know it, you know it in your heart too. We should just do it!
[quote][p][bold]daveyates3[/bold] wrote: Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise). We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer. Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.[/p][/quote]With respect, you are grasping at straws. To say the answer is not the M4 shows a lamentable lack of understanding of the issues of infrastructure and economic reality. The most profound reason for the gentle decline in traffic is that it is that people and businesses are completely fed up with losing money battling against the congestion and expense of trying to get around Newport. The reality is that Wales is slowly dying, starved of access and investment. People are pressing the Newport case in a selfish attempt to ignore the interests of everywhere west including Ireland where the economy and prospects of those people depend on getting past Newport. The description of the gateway to Wales is undermined by the fact that is is nearly closed and people are looking for other more accessible places to spend their time and money. But even so, the case to improve the access for Newport is unassailable too. We are sick of accidents and traffic jams caused by the slightest hiccup anywhere within a 10 mile radius. To suggest the Welsh Government have not considered the statistics and impact of the proposed M4 re-alignment is preposterous. It has been analysed to death over the last 30 years and every time the answer is exactly the same, but all the more urgent for all of us. The wildlife will adapt. I know it, you know it in your heart too. We should just do it! Radio Wales

12:44pm Tue 17 Dec 13

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

lowandhardandintheco
rner
wrote:
You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous.

Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
[quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis. GardenVarietyMushroom

12:46pm Tue 17 Dec 13

Mr Holder says...

Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.
Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives. Mr Holder

12:59pm Tue 17 Dec 13

NakedDancer says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco rner wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.[/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway. NakedDancer

1:00pm Tue 17 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

Mr Holder wrote:
Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.
hooray, another person who doesn't know what marxist means!
[quote][p][bold]Mr Holder[/bold] wrote: Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.[/p][/quote]hooray, another person who doesn't know what marxist means! whatintheworld

2:20pm Tue 17 Dec 13

Mr Holder says...

whatintheworld wrote:
Mr Holder wrote:
Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.
hooray, another person who doesn't know what marxist means!
Neo Marxist not Marxist, very different.
[quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mr Holder[/bold] wrote: Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.[/p][/quote]hooray, another person who doesn't know what marxist means![/p][/quote]Neo Marxist not Marxist, very different. Mr Holder

3:22pm Tue 17 Dec 13

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco rner wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.
Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.
[quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.[/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.[/p][/quote]Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks. GardenVarietyMushroom

3:46pm Tue 17 Dec 13

whatintheworld says...

Mr Holder wrote:
whatintheworld wrote:
Mr Holder wrote: Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.
hooray, another person who doesn't know what marxist means!
Neo Marxist not Marxist, very different.
my mistake! i guess you could describe their approach to development as neo marxist.

ive seen the word marxist banded about here a lot. most of the time its not used accuratley
[quote][p][bold]Mr Holder[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]whatintheworld[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mr Holder[/bold] wrote: Friends of the earth are nothing more than a bunch of Neo Marxist fruitcakes, they have no grasp of economic reality just a perceived god given right to tell the rest of us how to live our lives.[/p][/quote]hooray, another person who doesn't know what marxist means![/p][/quote]Neo Marxist not Marxist, very different.[/p][/quote]my mistake! i guess you could describe their approach to development as neo marxist. ive seen the word marxist banded about here a lot. most of the time its not used accuratley whatintheworld

3:58pm Tue 17 Dec 13

St3v3y says...

There is no need at all for a relief road, all that is needed is better traffic management starting from Magor through to the Tredegar park junction. The M4 only becomes busy at peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6 M42 M1 southbound and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times.. Enforced Speed restriction and lane control is the answer, not digging up the countryside and laying a load of fresh concrete over the top of it...I know some individuals stand to make a lot of money if it goes ahead, but it won't benefit South Wales at all...
There is no need at all for a relief road, all that is needed is better traffic management starting from Magor through to the Tredegar park junction. The M4 only becomes busy at peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6 M42 M1 southbound and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times.. Enforced Speed restriction and lane control is the answer, not digging up the countryside and laying a load of fresh concrete over the top of it...I know some individuals stand to make a lot of money if it goes ahead, but it won't benefit South Wales at all... St3v3y

4:53pm Tue 17 Dec 13

NakedDancer says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote:
lowandhardandintheco rner wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.
Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.
Its totally absurd to suggest people from Newport and people passing through Newport drive worse than any other built up area in rush hour. Most people aren't aren't perfect drivers and never will be.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.[/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.[/p][/quote]Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.[/p][/quote]Its totally absurd to suggest people from Newport and people passing through Newport drive worse than any other built up area in rush hour. Most people aren't aren't perfect drivers and never will be. NakedDancer

5:20pm Tue 17 Dec 13

GardenVarietyMushroom says...

NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote:
lowandhardandintheco rner wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.
Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.
Its totally absurd to suggest people from Newport and people passing through Newport drive worse than any other built up area in rush hour. Most people aren't aren't perfect drivers and never will be.
I'm not suggesting it - I'm saying it's a fact. There is a higher concentration of bad drivers here, both on and off the motorway, than I've seen anywhere else in twenty years of driving - at least a couple of years of which I was averaging more than a thousand miles a week, up and down the country.

There are other places that have far more dangerous roads that are the result of truly bad design - anyone else been to the M11 for example, where it and the A14 merge and cross over each other in a kind of figure eight confinguration? Horrendous design - not as many accidents as we get here. Or Spaghetti junction in the Midlands - really bad design yet few accidents. Compare that with the M6 which is reasonably easy to drive and suffers lots of accidents because people do not drive appropriate to the road conditions (i.e. congestion)

You can blame it on the road if you like - but you're wrong.
[quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.[/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.[/p][/quote]Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.[/p][/quote]Its totally absurd to suggest people from Newport and people passing through Newport drive worse than any other built up area in rush hour. Most people aren't aren't perfect drivers and never will be.[/p][/quote]I'm not suggesting it - I'm saying it's a fact. There is a higher concentration of bad drivers here, both on and off the motorway, than I've seen anywhere else in twenty years of driving - at least a couple of years of which I was averaging more than a thousand miles a week, up and down the country. There are other places that have far more dangerous roads that are the result of truly bad design - anyone else been to the M11 for example, where it and the A14 merge and cross over each other in a kind of figure eight confinguration? Horrendous design - not as many accidents as we get here. Or Spaghetti junction in the Midlands - really bad design yet few accidents. Compare that with the M6 which is reasonably easy to drive and suffers lots of accidents because people do not drive appropriate to the road conditions (i.e. congestion) You can blame it on the road if you like - but you're wrong. GardenVarietyMushroom

5:32pm Tue 17 Dec 13

St3v3y says...

I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way.
I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way. St3v3y

5:53pm Tue 17 Dec 13

NakedDancer says...

Your opinion does not make it a fact. When you get to Newport do you feel the urge to start driving badly - or is it everyone else that passes through Newport on the M4 except you that suffers from this affliction. Even if your conclusion were true something would have to cause people to start driving badly when they get to Newport. That'll be the road then. Or is there some chemical in the air or some mystical controller of driver skills in the Newport area ?

I drive up to 40,000 miles a year and can name you any number of built up areas that have poor driving during rush hour - thats quite obviously not unique to Newport. You can blame it on the drivers if you like but your wrong and in any case there's nothing you can do about imperfect drivers.
Your opinion does not make it a fact. When you get to Newport do you feel the urge to start driving badly - or is it everyone else that passes through Newport on the M4 except you that suffers from this affliction. Even if your conclusion were true something would have to cause people to start driving badly when they get to Newport. That'll be the road then. Or is there some chemical in the air or some mystical controller of driver skills in the Newport area ? I drive up to 40,000 miles a year and can name you any number of built up areas that have poor driving during rush hour - thats quite obviously not unique to Newport. You can blame it on the drivers if you like but your wrong and in any case there's nothing you can do about imperfect drivers. NakedDancer

6:03pm Tue 17 Dec 13

NakedDancer says...

St3v3y wrote:
I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way.
No-one would condone these idiots and variable speed limits are already in place controlled by cameras.

The point you are missing is this that motorways are for fast flow driving. There should not be a queue on a motorway or slip road. There should not be a need for speed control. You can moan about drivers as much as you like but until the Motorway standard M4 relief road is built the problems won't go away because the M4 is not fit for purpose.
[quote][p][bold]St3v3y[/bold] wrote: I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way.[/p][/quote]No-one would condone these idiots and variable speed limits are already in place controlled by cameras. The point you are missing is this that motorways are for fast flow driving. There should not be a queue on a motorway or slip road. There should not be a need for speed control. You can moan about drivers as much as you like but until the Motorway standard M4 relief road is built the problems won't go away because the M4 is not fit for purpose. NakedDancer

6:11pm Tue 17 Dec 13

bluebanana says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo m wrote:
lowandhardandintheco rner wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.
Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.
Its totally absurd to suggest people from Newport and people passing through Newport drive worse than any other built up area in rush hour. Most people aren't aren't perfect drivers and never will be.
I'm not suggesting it - I'm saying it's a fact. There is a higher concentration of bad drivers here, both on and off the motorway, than I've seen anywhere else in twenty years of driving - at least a couple of years of which I was averaging more than a thousand miles a week, up and down the country.

There are other places that have far more dangerous roads that are the result of truly bad design - anyone else been to the M11 for example, where it and the A14 merge and cross over each other in a kind of figure eight confinguration? Horrendous design - not as many accidents as we get here. Or Spaghetti junction in the Midlands - really bad design yet few accidents. Compare that with the M6 which is reasonably easy to drive and suffers lots of accidents because people do not drive appropriate to the road conditions (i.e. congestion)

You can blame it on the road if you like - but you're wrong.
Well said. I just had to chip in to say I agree with you completely! The M4 in Newport is no different to the rest of the UK motorway network in built up areas (except maybe for a 2 lane tunnel).

Yes this stretch is busy (so are most motorways at peak times) and yes there are accidents (as there are on every other motorway). So is this down to the design/condition of the road? Doubt it - not unless all the other motorways with congestion and accidents also need upgrading.
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.[/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.[/p][/quote]Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.[/p][/quote]Its totally absurd to suggest people from Newport and people passing through Newport drive worse than any other built up area in rush hour. Most people aren't aren't perfect drivers and never will be.[/p][/quote]I'm not suggesting it - I'm saying it's a fact. There is a higher concentration of bad drivers here, both on and off the motorway, than I've seen anywhere else in twenty years of driving - at least a couple of years of which I was averaging more than a thousand miles a week, up and down the country. There are other places that have far more dangerous roads that are the result of truly bad design - anyone else been to the M11 for example, where it and the A14 merge and cross over each other in a kind of figure eight confinguration? Horrendous design - not as many accidents as we get here. Or Spaghetti junction in the Midlands - really bad design yet few accidents. Compare that with the M6 which is reasonably easy to drive and suffers lots of accidents because people do not drive appropriate to the road conditions (i.e. congestion) You can blame it on the road if you like - but you're wrong.[/p][/quote]Well said. I just had to chip in to say I agree with you completely! The M4 in Newport is no different to the rest of the UK motorway network in built up areas (except maybe for a 2 lane tunnel). Yes this stretch is busy (so are most motorways at peak times) and yes there are accidents (as there are on every other motorway). So is this down to the design/condition of the road? Doubt it - not unless all the other motorways with congestion and accidents also need upgrading. bluebanana

7:24pm Tue 17 Dec 13

St3v3y says...

NakedDancer wrote:
St3v3y wrote:
I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way.
No-one would condone these idiots and variable speed limits are already in place controlled by cameras.

The point you are missing is this that motorways are for fast flow driving. There should not be a queue on a motorway or slip road. There should not be a need for speed control. You can moan about drivers as much as you like but until the Motorway standard M4 relief road is built the problems won't go away because the M4 is not fit for purpose.
I agree, motorways Are for fast free flowing traffic, but please try to give an example of a fast free flowing motorway at " PEEK " times anywhere in the UK...The speed cameras on the gantry's do Not work, but you have to admit that all the various very expensive and flasy road signs only ever display the bleeding obvious " Poor driving coditions " ,or the "time"
[quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]St3v3y[/bold] wrote: I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way.[/p][/quote]No-one would condone these idiots and variable speed limits are already in place controlled by cameras. The point you are missing is this that motorways are for fast flow driving. There should not be a queue on a motorway or slip road. There should not be a need for speed control. You can moan about drivers as much as you like but until the Motorway standard M4 relief road is built the problems won't go away because the M4 is not fit for purpose.[/p][/quote]I agree, motorways Are for fast free flowing traffic, but please try to give an example of a fast free flowing motorway at " PEEK " times anywhere in the UK...The speed cameras on the gantry's do Not work, but you have to admit that all the various very expensive and flasy road signs only ever display the bleeding obvious " Poor driving coditions " ,or the "time" St3v3y

7:28pm Tue 17 Dec 13

keithbob says...

St3v3y wrote:
I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way.
i agree with said post as i see it regular,the worse spot being the malpas turnoff from high x,they leave it till they are almost past the junction and sometimes cut across three lanes.sometimes wonder if the cameras have picked this up?BUT.some of these green tree huggers posting on here are missing the point.as a trucker for forty years i can probably say i have a lot more experience of motorway driving than most of them and this section of motorway is one of the worst sections of motorway in the country,the tunnels being the biggest problem.the only motorway with 40 or 50 mph.permantely.ask any trucker which part of the country he hates more,used to be the m25.we need it and wales needs it!
[quote][p][bold]St3v3y[/bold] wrote: I use the M4 more or less everyday, The idiot drivers who cause the incidents that block the motorway are the ones who attempt to jump the queuing traffic and try to slot into a space further on down the motorway closer to the junction, i see so many near misses because of this, then there's the driver who drives up the slip road and cannot wait it seems to get over into the fast lane as asap, leaving breaking and swerving traffic behind them. Both the above types of driver have caused a number of side and rear shunts over the past 12 months. This is why strict lane and speed control is required, and not another m/way.[/p][/quote]i agree with said post as i see it regular,the worse spot being the malpas turnoff from high x,they leave it till they are almost past the junction and sometimes cut across three lanes.sometimes wonder if the cameras have picked this up?BUT.some of these green tree huggers posting on here are missing the point.as a trucker for forty years i can probably say i have a lot more experience of motorway driving than most of them and this section of motorway is one of the worst sections of motorway in the country,the tunnels being the biggest problem.the only motorway with 40 or 50 mph.permantely.ask any trucker which part of the country he hates more,used to be the m25.we need it and wales needs it! keithbob

7:31pm Tue 17 Dec 13

St3v3y says...

that's Flashy, I have no idea what flasy means..
that's Flashy, I have no idea what flasy means.. St3v3y

8:55pm Tue 17 Dec 13

Jonnytrouble says...

For goodness sake, you Greens and those opposed to having the M4 relief rd would have us all on public transport huddled like cattle ? or bikes ?
And as someone said on here, just look at the swans and other wildlife on the canal at the Malpas jct so nr to the polluting over crowded M4 jct,, do they care ?
But I do living nr this noise when the wind blows it in my direction and pollution from this motorway..caused by the tailbacks from all this traffic trying to get through those stupid tunnels..
.( I don't want them enlarged either )
I would like to no how much is lost to business because of these delays ?
For goodness sake, you Greens and those opposed to having the M4 relief rd would have us all on public transport huddled like cattle ? or bikes ? And as someone said on here, just look at the swans and other wildlife on the canal at the Malpas jct so nr to the polluting over crowded M4 jct,, do they care ? But I do living nr this noise when the wind blows it in my direction and pollution from this motorway..caused by the tailbacks from all this traffic trying to get through those stupid tunnels.. .( I don't want them enlarged either ) I would like to no how much is lost to business because of these delays ? Jonnytrouble

9:02pm Tue 17 Dec 13

Jonnytrouble says...

keithbob says... i agree with said post as i see it regular,the worse spot being the malpas turnoff from high x,they leave it till they are almost past the junction and sometimes cut across three lanes.sometimes wonder if the cameras have picked this up?BUT.some of these green tree huggers posting on here are missing the point.as a trucker for forty years i can probably say i have a lot more experience of motorway driving than most of them and this section of motorway is one of the worst sections of motorway in the country,the tunnels being the biggest problem.the only motorway with 40 or 50 mph.permantely.ask any trucker which part of the country he hates more,used to be the m25.we need it and wales needs it!

They pay for all these consultants saying this and that, time being wasted getting on with it and all they have to do is get feedback from people like you, but would they listen ?
Of course not they No best don't they
keithbob says... i agree with said post as i see it regular,the worse spot being the malpas turnoff from high x,they leave it till they are almost past the junction and sometimes cut across three lanes.sometimes wonder if the cameras have picked this up?BUT.some of these green tree huggers posting on here are missing the point.as a trucker for forty years i can probably say i have a lot more experience of motorway driving than most of them and this section of motorway is one of the worst sections of motorway in the country,the tunnels being the biggest problem.the only motorway with 40 or 50 mph.permantely.ask any trucker which part of the country he hates more,used to be the m25.we need it and wales needs it! They pay for all these consultants saying this and that, time being wasted getting on with it and all they have to do is get feedback from people like you, but would they listen ? Of course not they No best don't they Jonnytrouble

9:31am Wed 18 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

As I said on another article relating to this issue:

A big contributor to crashes and delays is the fact that the nearside lane becomes an exit filter lane very shortly after traffic has joined the motorway.

This means drivers are switching into and out of the nearside lane at disparate speeds, significantly increasing congestion and the risk of a collision.

One temporary solution would be to change one or two junctions so that they are either "Exit only" or "Join only". I've seen this work well on other motorways, particularly where junctions are so close together as in Newport.
As I said on another article relating to this issue: A big contributor to crashes and delays is the fact that the nearside lane becomes an exit filter lane very shortly after traffic has joined the motorway. This means drivers are switching into and out of the nearside lane at disparate speeds, significantly increasing congestion and the risk of a collision. One temporary solution would be to change one or two junctions so that they are either "Exit only" or "Join only". I've seen this work well on other motorways, particularly where junctions are so close together as in Newport. _Bryan_

1:42pm Wed 18 Dec 13

St3v3y says...

_Bryan_ wrote:
As I said on another article relating to this issue:

A big contributor to crashes and delays is the fact that the nearside lane becomes an exit filter lane very shortly after traffic has joined the motorway.

This means drivers are switching into and out of the nearside lane at disparate speeds, significantly increasing congestion and the risk of a collision.

One temporary solution would be to change one or two junctions so that they are either "Exit only" or "Join only". I've seen this work well on other motorways, particularly where junctions are so close together as in Newport.
Agreed..
[quote][p][bold]_Bryan_[/bold] wrote: As I said on another article relating to this issue: A big contributor to crashes and delays is the fact that the nearside lane becomes an exit filter lane very shortly after traffic has joined the motorway. This means drivers are switching into and out of the nearside lane at disparate speeds, significantly increasing congestion and the risk of a collision. One temporary solution would be to change one or two junctions so that they are either "Exit only" or "Join only". I've seen this work well on other motorways, particularly where junctions are so close together as in Newport.[/p][/quote]Agreed.. St3v3y

8:50am Thu 19 Dec 13

keithbob says...

there is a particular junction in maidstone kent,which had a low wall and not a filter lane painted on the road,if your in the wrong lane and want to turn off at the last minute..maybe these could work along this bad stretch i.e.high.x and coldra turnoffs.the lane hoppers wont like it tough!
there is a particular junction in maidstone kent,which had a low wall and not a filter lane painted on the road,if your in the wrong lane and want to turn off at the last minute..maybe these could work along this bad stretch i.e.high.x and coldra turnoffs.the lane hoppers wont like it tough! keithbob

2:12pm Thu 19 Dec 13

Cymru Am Beth says...

daveyates3 wrote:
Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise).
We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer.

Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.
You would be happy for us to live in the dark ages to fulfil your ideology.
Whilst I agree that we should consider environmental impact, it should not stop everything from going ahead.
Whatever is proposed nothing seems to suit the Green Lobby.
No wonder Wales is losing ground to England Scotland and Northern Ireland.
We talk a lot and nothing gets done because we have to consider all the views from these minority interests who seem to think that they are right and the majority are wrong.
[quote][p][bold]daveyates3[/bold] wrote: Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise). We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer. Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.[/p][/quote]You would be happy for us to live in the dark ages to fulfil your ideology. Whilst I agree that we should consider environmental impact, it should not stop everything from going ahead. Whatever is proposed nothing seems to suit the Green Lobby. No wonder Wales is losing ground to England Scotland and Northern Ireland. We talk a lot and nothing gets done because we have to consider all the views from these minority interests who seem to think that they are right and the majority are wrong. Cymru Am Beth

2:14pm Thu 19 Dec 13

Cymru Am Beth says...

Radio Wales wrote:
daveyates3 wrote:
Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise).
We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer.

Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.
With respect, you are grasping at straws.

To say the answer is not the M4 shows a lamentable lack of understanding of the issues of infrastructure and economic reality.
The most profound reason for the gentle decline in traffic is that it is that people and businesses are completely fed up with losing money battling against the congestion and expense of trying to get around Newport. The reality is that Wales is slowly dying, starved of access and investment.

People are pressing the Newport case in a selfish attempt to ignore the interests of everywhere west including Ireland where the economy and prospects of those people depend on getting past Newport. The description of the gateway to Wales is undermined by the fact that is is nearly closed and people are looking for other more accessible places to spend their time and money. But even so, the case to improve the access for Newport is unassailable too. We are sick of accidents and traffic jams caused by the slightest hiccup anywhere within a 10 mile radius.

To suggest the Welsh Government have not considered the statistics and impact of the proposed M4 re-alignment is preposterous. It has been analysed to death over the last 30 years and every time the answer is exactly the same, but all the more urgent for all of us.

The wildlife will adapt. I know it, you know it in your heart too. We should just do it!
Brilliant post, absolutely agree.
[quote][p][bold]Radio Wales[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]daveyates3[/bold] wrote: Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise). We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer. Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.[/p][/quote]With respect, you are grasping at straws. To say the answer is not the M4 shows a lamentable lack of understanding of the issues of infrastructure and economic reality. The most profound reason for the gentle decline in traffic is that it is that people and businesses are completely fed up with losing money battling against the congestion and expense of trying to get around Newport. The reality is that Wales is slowly dying, starved of access and investment. People are pressing the Newport case in a selfish attempt to ignore the interests of everywhere west including Ireland where the economy and prospects of those people depend on getting past Newport. The description of the gateway to Wales is undermined by the fact that is is nearly closed and people are looking for other more accessible places to spend their time and money. But even so, the case to improve the access for Newport is unassailable too. We are sick of accidents and traffic jams caused by the slightest hiccup anywhere within a 10 mile radius. To suggest the Welsh Government have not considered the statistics and impact of the proposed M4 re-alignment is preposterous. It has been analysed to death over the last 30 years and every time the answer is exactly the same, but all the more urgent for all of us. The wildlife will adapt. I know it, you know it in your heart too. We should just do it![/p][/quote]Brilliant post, absolutely agree. Cymru Am Beth

6:17pm Thu 19 Dec 13

Bobevans says...

Radio Wales wrote:
daveyates3 wrote:
Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise).
We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer.

Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.
With respect, you are grasping at straws.

To say the answer is not the M4 shows a lamentable lack of understanding of the issues of infrastructure and economic reality.
The most profound reason for the gentle decline in traffic is that it is that people and businesses are completely fed up with losing money battling against the congestion and expense of trying to get around Newport. The reality is that Wales is slowly dying, starved of access and investment.

People are pressing the Newport case in a selfish attempt to ignore the interests of everywhere west including Ireland where the economy and prospects of those people depend on getting past Newport. The description of the gateway to Wales is undermined by the fact that is is nearly closed and people are looking for other more accessible places to spend their time and money. But even so, the case to improve the access for Newport is unassailable too. We are sick of accidents and traffic jams caused by the slightest hiccup anywhere within a 10 mile radius.

To suggest the Welsh Government have not considered the statistics and impact of the proposed M4 re-alignment is preposterous. It has been analysed to death over the last 30 years and every time the answer is exactly the same, but all the more urgent for all of us.

The wildlife will adapt. I know it, you know it in your heart too. We should just do it!
Rather than the Gateway to Wales the Bottleneck to Wales would be more appropriate
[quote][p][bold]Radio Wales[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]daveyates3[/bold] wrote: Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise). We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer. Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.[/p][/quote]With respect, you are grasping at straws. To say the answer is not the M4 shows a lamentable lack of understanding of the issues of infrastructure and economic reality. The most profound reason for the gentle decline in traffic is that it is that people and businesses are completely fed up with losing money battling against the congestion and expense of trying to get around Newport. The reality is that Wales is slowly dying, starved of access and investment. People are pressing the Newport case in a selfish attempt to ignore the interests of everywhere west including Ireland where the economy and prospects of those people depend on getting past Newport. The description of the gateway to Wales is undermined by the fact that is is nearly closed and people are looking for other more accessible places to spend their time and money. But even so, the case to improve the access for Newport is unassailable too. We are sick of accidents and traffic jams caused by the slightest hiccup anywhere within a 10 mile radius. To suggest the Welsh Government have not considered the statistics and impact of the proposed M4 re-alignment is preposterous. It has been analysed to death over the last 30 years and every time the answer is exactly the same, but all the more urgent for all of us. The wildlife will adapt. I know it, you know it in your heart too. We should just do it![/p][/quote]Rather than the Gateway to Wales the Bottleneck to Wales would be more appropriate Bobevans

6:22pm Thu 19 Dec 13

Bobevans says...

daveyates3 wrote:
Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise).
We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer.

Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.
You clearly are anti progressive. If it is not the horse and cart you are against it.

There is no viable alternative to upgrading the M$. Stop think of it as a local Newport road because it is not. It is a part of the UK motorway network.

Your suggestion of using buses is just laughable are this buses going to be towing containers from Birmingham etc ? Also the law does not allow long distance bus routes so as well as a daft idea you do not understand the legislation. Perhaps you are considering the reintroduction of Inns where the stage coach can stop over night and change horses
[quote][p][bold]daveyates3[/bold] wrote: Friends of the Earth aren't anti progression,nor do we believe in flying (unicorns (free range or otherwise). We just want a sustainable transport solution.The M4 isn't the answer. Dave Yates,Newport Friends of the Earth.[/p][/quote]You clearly are anti progressive. If it is not the horse and cart you are against it. There is no viable alternative to upgrading the M$. Stop think of it as a local Newport road because it is not. It is a part of the UK motorway network. Your suggestion of using buses is just laughable are this buses going to be towing containers from Birmingham etc ? Also the law does not allow long distance bus routes so as well as a daft idea you do not understand the legislation. Perhaps you are considering the reintroduction of Inns where the stage coach can stop over night and change horses Bobevans

6:23pm Thu 19 Dec 13

Bobevans says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m
wrote:
NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo


m
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco rner wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.
Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.
Actually within Newport the transport is not that bad compared with elsewhere in the UK where service are likely to be every hour
[quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.[/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.[/p][/quote]Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.[/p][/quote]Actually within Newport the transport is not that bad compared with elsewhere in the UK where service are likely to be every hour Bobevans

6:25pm Thu 19 Dec 13

Bobevans says...

St3v3y wrote:
There is no need at all for a relief road, all that is needed is better traffic management starting from Magor through to the Tredegar park junction. The M4 only becomes busy at peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6 M42 M1 southbound and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times.. Enforced Speed restriction and lane control is the answer, not digging up the countryside and laying a load of fresh concrete over the top of it...I know some individuals stand to make a lot of money if it goes ahead, but it won't benefit South Wales at all...
Only busy at peak times? It is busy most of the day. It may go a bit quieter late morning and early afternoon but that's all
[quote][p][bold]St3v3y[/bold] wrote: There is no need at all for a relief road, all that is needed is better traffic management starting from Magor through to the Tredegar park junction. The M4 only becomes busy at peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6 M42 M1 southbound and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times.. Enforced Speed restriction and lane control is the answer, not digging up the countryside and laying a load of fresh concrete over the top of it...I know some individuals stand to make a lot of money if it goes ahead, but it won't benefit South Wales at all...[/p][/quote]Only busy at peak times? It is busy most of the day. It may go a bit quieter late morning and early afternoon but that's all Bobevans

6:28pm Thu 19 Dec 13

Bobevans says...

NakedDancer wrote:
GardenVarietyMushroo

m
wrote:
lowandhardandintheco rner wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4!
I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.
I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.
THe M25 suffers similar problems to the M$. It has tunnels and on parts of it lots of junctions close together it even has a crawler lane thrown in. It is also very busy but it does not suffer the high accident rate of the Newport section of the M4. I do not accept the claim that Newport drivers are far worse than elsewhere for starters most of the drivers will not be from Newpot
[quote][p][bold]NakedDancer[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]GardenVarietyMushroo m[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]lowandhardandintheco rner[/bold] wrote: You don't need stats if you use this stretch regularly - it's unfit for purpose and sometimes downright dangerous..Build the damned new M4 South and solve the problem. The birds in the wetlands will hardly notice e.g. the swans in Malpas nest within 50 yards of the current M4![/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence to convince me that it's the road, and not the road users that are dangerous. Your own comment of 'SOMETIMES downright dangerous' seems to support my hypothesis.[/p][/quote]I've yet to see one shred of evidence that people suddenly start driving badly when they get to Newport. We could try to ensure the hundreds of thousands of drivers that pass through this stretch every year drive perfectly and dont make any mistakes. Or alternatively we could build a road that can cope with the volume of traffic, high speed driving and human imperfection - we can call it a motorway.[/p][/quote]THe M25 suffers similar problems to the M$. It has tunnels and on parts of it lots of junctions close together it even has a crawler lane thrown in. It is also very busy but it does not suffer the high accident rate of the Newport section of the M4. I do not accept the claim that Newport drivers are far worse than elsewhere for starters most of the drivers will not be from Newpot Bobevans

7:45pm Thu 19 Dec 13

St3v3y says...

Bobevans wrote:
St3v3y wrote:
There is no need at all for a relief road, all that is needed is better traffic management starting from Magor through to the Tredegar park junction. The M4 only becomes busy at peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6 M42 M1 southbound and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times.. Enforced Speed restriction and lane control is the answer, not digging up the countryside and laying a load of fresh concrete over the top of it...I know some individuals stand to make a lot of money if it goes ahead, but it won't benefit South Wales at all...
Only busy at peak times? It is busy most of the day. It may go a bit quieter late morning and early afternoon but that's all
Let me rephrase that for you Bob... The M4 only becomes Congested at Peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6, M4,2 M1 and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times..And you are correct, it is also "Busy" most of the day also....And just to make things a bit worse, It's Christmas week and the roads are even busier than normal.......
[quote][p][bold]Bobevans[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]St3v3y[/bold] wrote: There is no need at all for a relief road, all that is needed is better traffic management starting from Magor through to the Tredegar park junction. The M4 only becomes busy at peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6 M42 M1 southbound and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times.. Enforced Speed restriction and lane control is the answer, not digging up the countryside and laying a load of fresh concrete over the top of it...I know some individuals stand to make a lot of money if it goes ahead, but it won't benefit South Wales at all...[/p][/quote]Only busy at peak times? It is busy most of the day. It may go a bit quieter late morning and early afternoon but that's all[/p][/quote]Let me rephrase that for you Bob... The M4 only becomes Congested at Peak times, just like every other motorway in the Uk, e.g, M5/M6, M4,2 M1 and not forgetting the M25 which is a car park at peak times..And you are correct, it is also "Busy" most of the day also....And just to make things a bit worse, It's Christmas week and the roads are even busier than normal....... St3v3y

8:51am Fri 20 Dec 13

Mervyn James says...

Poolaboy58 wrote:
I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now.
Less cars, sorted, or it will be like the forth bridge we will have to keep concreting Wales until there is nothing green left. Sooner or later the issue of car dependence has to be addressed.
[quote][p][bold]Poolaboy58[/bold] wrote: I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now.[/p][/quote]Less cars, sorted, or it will be like the forth bridge we will have to keep concreting Wales until there is nothing green left. Sooner or later the issue of car dependence has to be addressed. Mervyn James

10:40am Fri 20 Dec 13

Bobevans says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Poolaboy58 wrote:
I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now.
Less cars, sorted, or it will be like the forth bridge we will have to keep concreting Wales until there is nothing green left. Sooner or later the issue of car dependence has to be addressed.
So how exactly will lorries get from Birmingham to Swansea? or people get from Hereford to Cardiff. Walk ? or horse & cart perhaps?
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Poolaboy58[/bold] wrote: I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now.[/p][/quote]Less cars, sorted, or it will be like the forth bridge we will have to keep concreting Wales until there is nothing green left. Sooner or later the issue of car dependence has to be addressed.[/p][/quote]So how exactly will lorries get from Birmingham to Swansea? or people get from Hereford to Cardiff. Walk ? or horse & cart perhaps? Bobevans

12:01pm Fri 20 Dec 13

_Bryan_ says...

Mervyn James wrote:
Poolaboy58 wrote: I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now.
Less cars, sorted, or it will be like the forth bridge we will have to keep concreting Wales until there is nothing green left. Sooner or later the issue of car dependence has to be addressed.
Flying Cars, sorted.

Ah sorry, I thought we were having a stupid idea competition...
[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Poolaboy58[/bold] wrote: I use this road every day - why? because my journey time Caerleon to Cardiff Bay by public transport is over 3 hours! As other peopel say you do not need statistics just use it to see how dangerous this stretch of road is. Yes improve public transport if possible, it does not need to be mutually exclusive but enough time and public money has been wated, build it now.[/p][/quote]Less cars, sorted, or it will be like the forth bridge we will have to keep concreting Wales until there is nothing green left. Sooner or later the issue of car dependence has to be addressed.[/p][/quote]Flying Cars, sorted. Ah sorry, I thought we were having a stupid idea competition... _Bryan_

12:03pm Sun 22 Dec 13

Mervyn James says...

Car dependency is at the root of it, it stands to reason more roads equal more cars, it is CARS that are the issue NOT lorries, of course they must have priority. Its these car drivers who never travel more than 10 miles that are the issue get them off the road. 'Is your journey really necessary..' was an old campaign, that needs to be done again,I've idiots in my street who drive to a school 200 yards away,clowns. And a number of others who use cars like mobile mini take-aways, who dump their crap outside my front door and drive off. Stupid is as stupid does, and here they are justifying car necessity. Don't buy it.
Car dependency is at the root of it, it stands to reason more roads equal more cars, it is CARS that are the issue NOT lorries, of course they must have priority. Its these car drivers who never travel more than 10 miles that are the issue get them off the road. 'Is your journey really necessary..' was an old campaign, that needs to be done again,I've idiots in my street who drive to a school 200 yards away,clowns. And a number of others who use cars like mobile mini take-aways, who dump their crap outside my front door and drive off. Stupid is as stupid does, and here they are justifying car necessity. Don't buy it. Mervyn James

8:45am Mon 23 Dec 13

Lliswerry Man says...

GardenVarietyMushroo
m says...
Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks.
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What a complete and utter load of tosh, I too have lived all over the country and Regularly use the various Motorways and A roads all over the UK, and can say Newport is LACKING !! its one of the worst stretches of Main Motorways in the UK and a reason why so many industries LOOK elsewhere to invest. Many other stretches have 4 or even 5 lanes and variable lanes to ease flow. WE have TWO for most of it, yet it carries more traffic than many other MAIN routes.
You claim there are so many bad drivers? really, so why do we have one of the lowest insurance ratings in the UK? the driving appears bad at times, because of the many junctions onto the Motorway along this stretch, and drivers who amble along aimlessly not willing to MOVE OUT !! it may not be law to do so , but it is COMMON SENSE.
Then we have the 3 into 2 lane system for the tunnels etc, ITS AN OLD system and needs to be upgraded, the only way to do that is with a NEW stretch of Motorway, ALL over the country they simply move with the times, BUT here in this little part of Wales we seem to be stuck in some 1800 mindset, scared of progress and then we wonder why we are one of the MOST deprived parts of the UK!!!
Many of you here slate , the town for its DOLE BUMS, yet are the same people who OBJECT to New Roads, New Buildings and WORK coming here .... you reap what you sow.

As for Public Transport it could not possibly help or cope... GET A GRIP... many people in this part of the country work shifts, live in the outskirts where buses start at 6am and end at 6pm.... that does not look like it is changing anytime soon, cars are still the CHEAPEST option for getting to and from work, MAYBE if the GREEN's actually shut up and allowed progress to happen, they might find people can find work then closer to home and actually be able to consider OTHER methods of getting to work. But until we have the investment NOTHING will change.
I wish the greens would just go live in the trees where they want and leave the rest of us to live how we want !!
GardenVarietyMushroo m says... Having lived and worked all over the UK before coming to Newport, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I've never seen so many bad drivers in one place at a time. That fact plus a lack of decent public transport puts them all on the M4 during rush hour(s) traffic. If the roads are congested, then I would suggest either investing more in public transport or people allowing more time for their journey by car, so they can make their daily commute without driving like complete pillocks. -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- -------------------- - What a complete and utter load of tosh, I too have lived all over the country and Regularly use the various Motorways and A roads all over the UK, and can say Newport is LACKING !! its one of the worst stretches of Main Motorways in the UK and a reason why so many industries LOOK elsewhere to invest. Many other stretches have 4 or even 5 lanes and variable lanes to ease flow. WE have TWO for most of it, yet it carries more traffic than many other MAIN routes. You claim there are so many bad drivers? really, so why do we have one of the lowest insurance ratings in the UK? the driving appears bad at times, because of the many junctions onto the Motorway along this stretch, and drivers who amble along aimlessly not willing to MOVE OUT !! it may not be law to do so , but it is COMMON SENSE. Then we have the 3 into 2 lane system for the tunnels etc, ITS AN OLD system and needs to be upgraded, the only way to do that is with a NEW stretch of Motorway, ALL over the country they simply move with the times, BUT here in this little part of Wales we seem to be stuck in some 1800 mindset, scared of progress and then we wonder why we are one of the MOST deprived parts of the UK!!! Many of you here slate , the town for its DOLE BUMS, yet are the same people who OBJECT to New Roads, New Buildings and WORK coming here .... you reap what you sow. As for Public Transport it could not possibly help or cope... GET A GRIP... many people in this part of the country work shifts, live in the outskirts where buses start at 6am and end at 6pm.... that does not look like it is changing anytime soon, cars are still the CHEAPEST option for getting to and from work, MAYBE if the GREEN's actually shut up and allowed progress to happen, they might find people can find work then closer to home and actually be able to consider OTHER methods of getting to work. But until we have the investment NOTHING will change. I wish the greens would just go live in the trees where they want and leave the rest of us to live how we want !! Lliswerry Man

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