Gypsies set up camp in Ringland, Newport

Gypsies set up camp in Ringland, Newport

Gypsies set up camp in Ringland, Newport

First published in News
Last updated

A NUMBER of travellers have set up camp in Newport on an unauthorised site.

The travellers arrived at Hartridge Farm Road in Ringland on Wednesday evening.

John Jackson, road safety officer at the Road Safety Centre at Hartridge Farm Road, said: “Somebody broke the lock off the gate. There are 10 to 15 vans dotted all over the place.”

Bikers who arrived for motorcycle training on Thursday morning had to be turned away as they couldn’t use the track.

Mr Jackson said: “I don’t know how long they are going to be here. Ten years ago when they came here they stayed about three days.”

Hartridge Farm Road is one of the three gipsy and traveller sites being considered in the council’s local development plan (LDP). At a recent hearing examining the LDP, Ringland residents vehemently voiced their concerns about the Hartridge site, saying travellers would not be safe there given the levels of anti-social behaviour in the Ringland area.

Former councillor, David Hando, a trustee of the Newport Traveller Sites Study Group and a resident of Ringland said: “They’ve got to go somewhere and the problem is Newport City council turned its back on the problem. There is always going to be a problem of illegal sites until there are legal ones. The problem is what they have chosen as potential legal sites are totally unsuitable.

The Hartridge farm site is between two schools and should it go ahead, would mean the closure for the Road Safety Centre. The centre is used by many school children as it is part of Llanwern Comprehensive School’s curriculum.

Mr Hando added: “The hope is the council will listen to what the inspector says when he produces his report.” The inspector’s report on the LDP is due later this year.

Gwent Police confirmed they were made aware of the travellers at around 8pm on Wednesday night, but no action was taken.

A spokeswoman said Newport council is aware that there are travellers at Hartridge Farm Road and it is an unauthorised encampment.

She added: “Council officers visited the site on Thursday morning. An assessment will be carried out and notice given that we expect them to move in the next few days. If they fail to move then the council will take enforcement action.”

Comments (114)

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5:33pm Thu 17 Apr 14

Woodgnome says...

Sigh!
Sigh! Woodgnome
  • Score: 13

6:18pm Thu 17 Apr 14

welshmen says...

Bank holiday....
Bank holiday.... welshmen
  • Score: 13

6:22pm Thu 17 Apr 14

manager111 says...

They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up. manager111
  • Score: 15

6:51pm Thu 17 Apr 14

DDDog1 says...

Hope they have there tin helmets
Hope they have there tin helmets DDDog1
  • Score: -3

6:53pm Thu 17 Apr 14

DDDog1 says...

If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.
If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them. DDDog1
  • Score: 80

7:03pm Thu 17 Apr 14

Magor says...

I thought if they have broken in they can be moved straight away.But they must know how slow and useless Newport Council are.
I thought if they have broken in they can be moved straight away.But they must know how slow and useless Newport Council are. Magor
  • Score: 66

7:06pm Thu 17 Apr 14

Woodgnome says...

"What us guv, no, the gate was open we got here?"
"What us guv, no, the gate was open we got here?" Woodgnome
  • Score: 19

7:08pm Thu 17 Apr 14

33daverave says...

DDDog1 wrote:
If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.
How ?
Trespass is a Civil offence so the Council will have to go to the High Court , which will of course be shut for Easter.
Then the rest of the tealeaves will turn up.
[quote][p][bold]DDDog1[/bold] wrote: If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.[/p][/quote]How ? Trespass is a Civil offence so the Council will have to go to the High Court , which will of course be shut for Easter. Then the rest of the tealeaves will turn up. 33daverave
  • Score: 19

7:08pm Thu 17 Apr 14

Jonnytrouble says...

More Criminals for Newport,Oh dear !
Wonder if any plods will check on them ?
More Criminals for Newport,Oh dear ! Wonder if any plods will check on them ? Jonnytrouble
  • Score: 13

7:32pm Thu 17 Apr 14

VoiceOfDaPort says...

'Gypsies set up camp in Ringland, Newport' and instantly caused £000's worth of improvements
'Gypsies set up camp in Ringland, Newport' and instantly caused £000's worth of improvements VoiceOfDaPort
  • Score: 0

8:49pm Thu 17 Apr 14

bostonblackie says...

Nice story, Argus. All you have to do now is report (for the first time since 2009) on the illegal gypsy encampment presently in place in Coedkernew. You know, the one that has been there for the last six weeks? Actually, you've not mentioned the dozens of previous occasions that gypsies have used this site down the years. I can understand the council not wanting this rolling situation being mentioned too often but the local paper?. Anybody would think that you have an arrangement with The Civic Center but no, surely not. You're here to report the News, right?
Nice story, Argus. All you have to do now is report (for the first time since 2009) on the illegal gypsy encampment presently in place in Coedkernew. You know, the one that has been there for the last six weeks? Actually, you've not mentioned the dozens of previous occasions that gypsies have used this site down the years. I can understand the council not wanting this rolling situation being mentioned too often but the local paper?. Anybody would think that you have an arrangement with The Civic Center but no, surely not. You're here to report the News, right? bostonblackie
  • Score: 35

8:50pm Thu 17 Apr 14

bostonblackie says...

VoiceOfDaPort wrote:
'Gypsies set up camp in Ringland, Newport' and instantly caused £000's worth of improvements
Ironic, in view of your username. Get a life, btw.
[quote][p][bold]VoiceOfDaPort[/bold] wrote: 'Gypsies set up camp in Ringland, Newport' and instantly caused £000's worth of improvements[/p][/quote]Ironic, in view of your username. Get a life, btw. bostonblackie
  • Score: 1

8:59pm Thu 17 Apr 14

Wildethoughts says...

manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
[quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article? Wildethoughts
  • Score: -31

9:00pm Thu 17 Apr 14

kevlec says...

When they set up camp in Llantarnam outside my place of work, every morning I, d beep the vans horn when I went past on my way in & out of the office, this went down well with the gypsies, was this why they left?
Maybe this should be done wherever they set up camp!
When they set up camp in Llantarnam outside my place of work, every morning I, d beep the vans horn when I went past on my way in & out of the office, this went down well with the gypsies, was this why they left? Maybe this should be done wherever they set up camp! kevlec
  • Score: 20

9:23pm Thu 17 Apr 14

MaxAmill1 says...

You are travellers, please look after yourselves and your family before there is trouble, and there will be, move on and travel!!
You are travellers, please look after yourselves and your family before there is trouble, and there will be, move on and travel!! MaxAmill1
  • Score: 5

9:28pm Thu 17 Apr 14

Wildethoughts says...

MaxAmill1 wrote:
You are travellers, please look after yourselves and your family before there is trouble, and there will be, move on and travel!!
Is that some kind of threat? I would imagine that the SWA would take action against anyone who posted a threatening comment?
[quote][p][bold]MaxAmill1[/bold] wrote: You are travellers, please look after yourselves and your family before there is trouble, and there will be, move on and travel!![/p][/quote]Is that some kind of threat? I would imagine that the SWA would take action against anyone who posted a threatening comment? Wildethoughts
  • Score: -28

10:17pm Thu 17 Apr 14

MaxAmill1 says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
MaxAmill1 wrote:
You are travellers, please look after yourselves and your family before there is trouble, and there will be, move on and travel!!
Is that some kind of threat? I would imagine that the SWA would take action against anyone who posted a threatening comment?
No threat intended, just concerned.
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]MaxAmill1[/bold] wrote: You are travellers, please look after yourselves and your family before there is trouble, and there will be, move on and travel!![/p][/quote]Is that some kind of threat? I would imagine that the SWA would take action against anyone who posted a threatening comment?[/p][/quote]No threat intended, just concerned. MaxAmill1
  • Score: 10

11:45pm Thu 17 Apr 14

mikewelsh says...

33daverave wrote:
DDDog1 wrote:
If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.
How ?
Trespass is a Civil offence so the Council will have to go to the High Court , which will of course be shut for Easter.
Then the rest of the tealeaves will turn up.
Breaking and Entering is a ......... CRIMINAL OFFENCE ..... Go get em Clyde .... Charge them All and Lock em up.
[quote][p][bold]33daverave[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]DDDog1[/bold] wrote: If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.[/p][/quote]How ? Trespass is a Civil offence so the Council will have to go to the High Court , which will of course be shut for Easter. Then the rest of the tealeaves will turn up.[/p][/quote]Breaking and Entering is a ......... CRIMINAL OFFENCE ..... Go get em Clyde .... Charge them All and Lock em up. mikewelsh
  • Score: 29

11:45pm Thu 17 Apr 14

Jedi Master Katarn says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race.

It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country.

It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice.

But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house.

Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage.

They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused.

The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?[/p][/quote]Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race. It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country. It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice. But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house. Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage. They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused. The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe. Jedi Master Katarn
  • Score: 16

8:24am Fri 18 Apr 14

Dai Rear says...

Jedi Master Katarn wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race.

It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country.

It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice.

But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house.

Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage.

They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused.

The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.
If the are Celtic, from western Britain, then clearly local Welsh Celts clearly cannot demonstrate racialism towards them. However "prejudice"? I started my life with no information about these people. My encounters have related to tarmac, hare coursing, dishonesty and violence. I have come to conclusions but you are wrong to suppose that they involve pre-judgements. They guide my relationships (if unavoidable) with these people and, like most of what the loony left call "prejudices" are a survival weapon. Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary. If either lot needs to go somewhere, since they have no connection with Wales, my suggestion would be Ukraine.
[quote][p][bold]Jedi Master Katarn[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?[/p][/quote]Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race. It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country. It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice. But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house. Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage. They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused. The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.[/p][/quote]If the are Celtic, from western Britain, then clearly local Welsh Celts clearly cannot demonstrate racialism towards them. However "prejudice"? I started my life with no information about these people. My encounters have related to tarmac, hare coursing, dishonesty and violence. I have come to conclusions but you are wrong to suppose that they involve pre-judgements. They guide my relationships (if unavoidable) with these people and, like most of what the loony left call "prejudices" are a survival weapon. Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary. If either lot needs to go somewhere, since they have no connection with Wales, my suggestion would be Ukraine. Dai Rear
  • Score: 5

8:25am Fri 18 Apr 14

DDDog1 says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
Since when have gypsies become a race?
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?[/p][/quote]Since when have gypsies become a race? DDDog1
  • Score: 8

9:15am Fri 18 Apr 14

Katie Re-Registered says...

Dai Rear wrote:
Jedi Master Katarn wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race.

It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country.

It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice.

But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house.

Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage.

They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused.

The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.
If the are Celtic, from western Britain, then clearly local Welsh Celts clearly cannot demonstrate racialism towards them. However "prejudice"? I started my life with no information about these people. My encounters have related to tarmac, hare coursing, dishonesty and violence. I have come to conclusions but you are wrong to suppose that they involve pre-judgements. They guide my relationships (if unavoidable) with these people and, like most of what the loony left call "prejudices" are a survival weapon. Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary. If either lot needs to go somewhere, since they have no connection with Wales, my suggestion would be Ukraine.
"Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary."

Crikey Dai, you made the last bit sound like you've previously been engaged in a no-holds barred all out martial arts turf war with the ultra-violent blood spattered, Bangkok underworld (lol:) - you're not secretly Wales's answer to Steven Seagal, are you?!
[quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jedi Master Katarn[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?[/p][/quote]Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race. It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country. It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice. But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house. Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage. They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused. The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.[/p][/quote]If the are Celtic, from western Britain, then clearly local Welsh Celts clearly cannot demonstrate racialism towards them. However "prejudice"? I started my life with no information about these people. My encounters have related to tarmac, hare coursing, dishonesty and violence. I have come to conclusions but you are wrong to suppose that they involve pre-judgements. They guide my relationships (if unavoidable) with these people and, like most of what the loony left call "prejudices" are a survival weapon. Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary. If either lot needs to go somewhere, since they have no connection with Wales, my suggestion would be Ukraine.[/p][/quote]"Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary." Crikey Dai, you made the last bit sound like you've previously been engaged in a no-holds barred all out martial arts turf war with the ultra-violent blood spattered, Bangkok underworld (lol:) - you're not secretly Wales's answer to Steven Seagal, are you?! Katie Re-Registered
  • Score: 6

9:27am Fri 18 Apr 14

Dai Rear says...

Katie Re-Registered wrote:
Dai Rear wrote:
Jedi Master Katarn wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race.

It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country.

It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice.

But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house.

Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage.

They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused.

The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.
If the are Celtic, from western Britain, then clearly local Welsh Celts clearly cannot demonstrate racialism towards them. However "prejudice"? I started my life with no information about these people. My encounters have related to tarmac, hare coursing, dishonesty and violence. I have come to conclusions but you are wrong to suppose that they involve pre-judgements. They guide my relationships (if unavoidable) with these people and, like most of what the loony left call "prejudices" are a survival weapon. Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary. If either lot needs to go somewhere, since they have no connection with Wales, my suggestion would be Ukraine.
"Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary."

Crikey Dai, you made the last bit sound like you've previously been engaged in a no-holds barred all out martial arts turf war with the ultra-violent blood spattered, Bangkok underworld (lol:) - you're not secretly Wales's answer to Steven Seagal, are you?!
My Nom de Guerre is actually Dai Putin. But now I've told you that I'll have to kill you....
[quote][p][bold]Katie Re-Registered[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Jedi Master Katarn[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?[/p][/quote]Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race. It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country. It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice. But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house. Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage. They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused. The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.[/p][/quote]If the are Celtic, from western Britain, then clearly local Welsh Celts clearly cannot demonstrate racialism towards them. However "prejudice"? I started my life with no information about these people. My encounters have related to tarmac, hare coursing, dishonesty and violence. I have come to conclusions but you are wrong to suppose that they involve pre-judgements. They guide my relationships (if unavoidable) with these people and, like most of what the loony left call "prejudices" are a survival weapon. Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary. If either lot needs to go somewhere, since they have no connection with Wales, my suggestion would be Ukraine.[/p][/quote]"Incidentally I have encounters with the other , eastern, race, and survival weapons also are necessary." Crikey Dai, you made the last bit sound like you've previously been engaged in a no-holds barred all out martial arts turf war with the ultra-violent blood spattered, Bangkok underworld (lol:) - you're not secretly Wales's answer to Steven Seagal, are you?![/p][/quote]My Nom de Guerre is actually Dai Putin. But now I've told you that I'll have to kill you.... Dai Rear
  • Score: 1

10:34am Fri 18 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
Perhaps you could volunteer to clean up the site after they leave and save the site owners some money? If you are right, there'll be absolutely nothing to clear. Or will there?
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?[/p][/quote]Perhaps you could volunteer to clean up the site after they leave and save the site owners some money? If you are right, there'll be absolutely nothing to clear. Or will there? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 19

10:48am Fri 18 Apr 14

amandadavies8 says...

They are Testing the area out
They are Testing the area out amandadavies8
  • Score: 5

1:36pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Leepod says...

DDDog1 wrote:
If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.
Criminal damage, law until themselves. That's why we get so annoyed!
[quote][p][bold]DDDog1[/bold] wrote: If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.[/p][/quote]Criminal damage, law until themselves. That's why we get so annoyed! Leepod
  • Score: 10

2:08pm Fri 18 Apr 14

DDDog1 says...

33daverave wrote:
DDDog1 wrote:
If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.
How ?
Trespass is a Civil offence so the Council will have to go to the High Court , which will of course be shut for Easter.
Then the rest of the tealeaves will turn up.
Don't be daft,if that was you or I who broke the lock off and and camped on private land do you think we wouldn't be arrested?
[quote][p][bold]33daverave[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]DDDog1[/bold] wrote: If it's locked and is broken into then it's trespassing,arrest the lot of them.[/p][/quote]How ? Trespass is a Civil offence so the Council will have to go to the High Court , which will of course be shut for Easter. Then the rest of the tealeaves will turn up.[/p][/quote]Don't be daft,if that was you or I who broke the lock off and and camped on private land do you think we wouldn't be arrested? DDDog1
  • Score: 21

6:39pm Fri 18 Apr 14

bugsy93 says...

Breaking a lock off a gate constitutes criminal damage. Also illegal fly-tipping and littering is an offence.Recording the registration plates of their vehicles and prosecuting the registered owners for these offences should be a deterrent.
A permanent site will not stop these from setting -up camps to work in the area for a period and move on else where once they have made their mess and filth.
The Police and Council seem to have a weak approach in dealing with these ,only to make a point of 'how much it cost' to clear up the mess afterwards.
Breaking a lock off a gate constitutes criminal damage. Also illegal fly-tipping and littering is an offence.Recording the registration plates of their vehicles and prosecuting the registered owners for these offences should be a deterrent. A permanent site will not stop these from setting -up camps to work in the area for a period and move on else where once they have made their mess and filth. The Police and Council seem to have a weak approach in dealing with these ,only to make a point of 'how much it cost' to clear up the mess afterwards. bugsy93
  • Score: 8

7:19pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

bugsy93 wrote:
Breaking a lock off a gate constitutes criminal damage. Also illegal fly-tipping and littering is an offence.Recording the registration plates of their vehicles and prosecuting the registered owners for these offences should be a deterrent.
A permanent site will not stop these from setting -up camps to work in the area for a period and move on else where once they have made their mess and filth.
The Police and Council seem to have a weak approach in dealing with these ,only to make a point of 'how much it cost' to clear up the mess afterwards.
You make an interesting point. A certain contributor on here mentions discrimination. Are we being discriminated against because we are held to account for such offences whilst they aren't?
[quote][p][bold]bugsy93[/bold] wrote: Breaking a lock off a gate constitutes criminal damage. Also illegal fly-tipping and littering is an offence.Recording the registration plates of their vehicles and prosecuting the registered owners for these offences should be a deterrent. A permanent site will not stop these from setting -up camps to work in the area for a period and move on else where once they have made their mess and filth. The Police and Council seem to have a weak approach in dealing with these ,only to make a point of 'how much it cost' to clear up the mess afterwards.[/p][/quote]You make an interesting point. A certain contributor on here mentions discrimination. Are we being discriminated against because we are held to account for such offences whilst they aren't? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 12

7:44pm Fri 18 Apr 14

bugsy93 says...

What ever the race creed or colour , an offence is an offence. The unacceptable lifestyle they choose should not be a reason to expect any leniency when laws are breached. A cigarette dropped in the street will cost a £75 fixed penalty. to the rest of us. Tons of conifer cuttings, lorry tyres and excrement left hanging in trees in plastic bags by travellers are overlooked by the authorities when it suits them.
What ever the race creed or colour , an offence is an offence. The unacceptable lifestyle they choose should not be a reason to expect any leniency when laws are breached. A cigarette dropped in the street will cost a £75 fixed penalty. to the rest of us. Tons of conifer cuttings, lorry tyres and excrement left hanging in trees in plastic bags by travellers are overlooked by the authorities when it suits them. bugsy93
  • Score: 11

9:06pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Wildethoughts says...

Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'. Wildethoughts
  • Score: -5

10:06pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin
g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.[/p][/quote]If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 5

10:11pm Fri 18 Apr 14

brynglas says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
Quite right - many of the comments on here are sickening - Gypsies and Irish Travellers are people. They may have different lifestyles to settled communities but they have as much right to be here as any other citizen. I live about 1/2 mile from a gypsy camp - they're fine, much less of a problem than many of my settled neighbours!
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.[/p][/quote]Quite right - many of the comments on here are sickening - Gypsies and Irish Travellers are people. They may have different lifestyles to settled communities but they have as much right to be here as any other citizen. I live about 1/2 mile from a gypsy camp - they're fine, much less of a problem than many of my settled neighbours! brynglas
  • Score: -14

10:17pm Fri 18 Apr 14

brynglas says...

Llanmartinangel wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin

g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.
If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin
g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers.
[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.[/p][/quote]If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.[/p][/quote]If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers. brynglas
  • Score: -7

10:24pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

brynglas wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin


g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.
If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin

g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers.
No choice? Really? Is that your opinion because it isn't your property they are illegally occupying?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.[/p][/quote]If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.[/p][/quote]If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers.[/p][/quote]No choice? Really? Is that your opinion because it isn't your property they are illegally occupying? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 6

10:30pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Wildethoughts says...

brynglas wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin


g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.
If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin

g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers.
Spot on. I am sick tired of the constant stream of racism that goes along with any article about the Gypsy / Traveller community. And the SWA encourages this by only ever publishing articles that it knows will raise tension. Why don't they give a balanced view. And publish articles about the lives of people who come from Gypsy / Traveller communities and the positive contribution that they make to society. Do people who identify as Gypsy or Traveller commit crime - yes. Do people who identify as born and brought as Welsh, and from Newport commit crime - yes. Do people who are rich, and English commit crime - yes. Gypsies, for whom travelling is a cultural tradition, face massive opposition to their lifestyle with a lack of provision for temporary sites, and discrimination wherever they stop. 'They' are human beings. And deserve to be able to live their lives without prejudice or discrimination.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.[/p][/quote]If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.[/p][/quote]If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers.[/p][/quote]Spot on. I am sick tired of the constant stream of racism that goes along with any article about the Gypsy / Traveller community. And the SWA encourages this by only ever publishing articles that it knows will raise tension. Why don't they give a balanced view. And publish articles about the lives of people who come from Gypsy / Traveller communities and the positive contribution that they make to society. Do people who identify as Gypsy or Traveller commit crime - yes. Do people who identify as born and brought as Welsh, and from Newport commit crime - yes. Do people who are rich, and English commit crime - yes. Gypsies, for whom travelling is a cultural tradition, face massive opposition to their lifestyle with a lack of provision for temporary sites, and discrimination wherever they stop. 'They' are human beings. And deserve to be able to live their lives without prejudice or discrimination. Wildethoughts
  • Score: -16

10:31pm Fri 18 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Llanmartinangel so what would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?
@Llanmartinangel so what would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? brynglas
  • Score: -6

10:50pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

Wildethoughts wrote:
brynglas wrote:
Llanmartinangel wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin



g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.
If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin


g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers.
Spot on. I am sick tired of the constant stream of racism that goes along with any article about the Gypsy / Traveller community. And the SWA encourages this by only ever publishing articles that it knows will raise tension. Why don't they give a balanced view. And publish articles about the lives of people who come from Gypsy / Traveller communities and the positive contribution that they make to society. Do people who identify as Gypsy or Traveller commit crime - yes. Do people who identify as born and brought as Welsh, and from Newport commit crime - yes. Do people who are rich, and English commit crime - yes. Gypsies, for whom travelling is a cultural tradition, face massive opposition to their lifestyle with a lack of provision for temporary sites, and discrimination wherever they stop. 'They' are human beings. And deserve to be able to live their lives without prejudice or discrimination.
'The positive contribution they make to society'

That's why everyone welcomes them with open arms. Why houses near traveller sites are unsaleable. Why every piece of land they illegally occupy is turned into a rubbish tip.
[quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.[/p][/quote]If that is a suggestion that it is against the law to even suggest that they indulge in illegal entry, encampment and littering/fly-tippin g then most contributors on here would argue that, once again, the law is an a*s.[/p][/quote]If there aren't enough camp sites provided then they have no choice but to occupy other sites. And in my experience most littering/fly-tippin g is perpetrated by people in the settled community and blamed on Gypsies and Irish Travellers.[/p][/quote]Spot on. I am sick tired of the constant stream of racism that goes along with any article about the Gypsy / Traveller community. And the SWA encourages this by only ever publishing articles that it knows will raise tension. Why don't they give a balanced view. And publish articles about the lives of people who come from Gypsy / Traveller communities and the positive contribution that they make to society. Do people who identify as Gypsy or Traveller commit crime - yes. Do people who identify as born and brought as Welsh, and from Newport commit crime - yes. Do people who are rich, and English commit crime - yes. Gypsies, for whom travelling is a cultural tradition, face massive opposition to their lifestyle with a lack of provision for temporary sites, and discrimination wherever they stop. 'They' are human beings. And deserve to be able to live their lives without prejudice or discrimination.[/p][/quote]'The positive contribution they make to society' That's why everyone welcomes them with open arms. Why houses near traveller sites are unsaleable. Why every piece of land they illegally occupy is turned into a rubbish tip. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 11

11:13pm Fri 18 Apr 14

brynglas says...

To all of you who have left prejudiced comments aimed at gypsies and travellers:

Did you know that historical persecution of gypsies and travellers has been so prevalent and widespread it has a name: antiziganism?

According to a report issued by Amnesty International in 2011 systematic discrimination is taking place against up to 10 million across Europe. The organization has documented the failures of governments across the continent to live up to their obligations.

How does it feel to be helping to persecute a vulnerable minority?
To all of you who have left prejudiced comments aimed at gypsies and travellers: Did you know that historical persecution of gypsies and travellers has been so prevalent and widespread it has a name: antiziganism? According to a report issued by Amnesty International in 2011 systematic discrimination is taking place against up to 10 million [Romani/gypsies/travellers] across Europe. The organization has documented the failures of governments across the continent to live up to their obligations. How does it feel to be helping to persecute a vulnerable minority? brynglas
  • Score: -18

11:18pm Fri 18 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

brynglas wrote:
To all of you who have left prejudiced comments aimed at gypsies and travellers:

Did you know that historical persecution of gypsies and travellers has been so prevalent and widespread it has a name: antiziganism?

According to a report issued by Amnesty International in 2011 systematic discrimination is taking place against up to 10 million across Europe. The organization has documented the failures of governments across the continent to live up to their obligations.

How does it feel to be helping to persecute a vulnerable minority?
As anyone who has ever had an encounter with them would say, 'vulnerable' isn't the first word that springs to mind.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: To all of you who have left prejudiced comments aimed at gypsies and travellers: Did you know that historical persecution of gypsies and travellers has been so prevalent and widespread it has a name: antiziganism? According to a report issued by Amnesty International in 2011 systematic discrimination is taking place against up to 10 million [Romani/gypsies/travellers] across Europe. The organization has documented the failures of governments across the continent to live up to their obligations. How does it feel to be helping to persecute a vulnerable minority?[/p][/quote]As anyone who has ever had an encounter with them would say, 'vulnerable' isn't the first word that springs to mind. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 22

11:28pm Fri 18 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Llanmartinangel As with most prejudice, you make many unjustified generalizations.

The rhetoric in the media in UK and other European countries against gypsies is very similar to that used by Nazis and fascists before the mass killings started in the 1930's. It is argued that the gypsies are a threat to safety and public health. No distinction is made between a few criminals and the overwhelming majority of the gypsy traveller population. This is shameful and dangerous.
@Llanmartinangel As with most prejudice, you make many unjustified generalizations. The rhetoric in the media in UK and other European countries against gypsies is very similar to that used by Nazis and fascists before the mass killings started in the 1930's. It is argued that the gypsies are a threat to safety and public health. No distinction is made between a few criminals and the overwhelming majority of the gypsy traveller population. This is shameful and dangerous. brynglas
  • Score: -12

11:40pm Fri 18 Apr 14

brynglas says...

There is no one ‘blueprint’ for the Gypsy and Traveller culture or community, any more than there is for the diverse British culture. Having said that, most Gypsies and Travellers do have certain cultural things in common which may have evolved from the needs of a life on the road. As a result they face many of the same negative myths.

Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are dirty’

Truth: Gypsy culture is built upon strict laws of cleanliness passed down over centuries. For example conventions such as mokkadi and mahrime (pollution and cleanliness rules) place strict guidelines on what objects can be washed in what bowls. Even generally accepted norms such as pet ownership fall under these rules; most Gypsies and Travellers do not allow family pets inside their homes, because they believe them to be unclean and carriers of disease.

Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are criminal’

Truth: Gypsy and Traveller society mirrors society in general, some Gypsies and Travellers are involved in crime, but the vast majority live within the law. There is absolutely no evidence to support greater criminal activity by Gypsies and Travellers either nationally or locally.

Myth: ‘Gypsies and Travellers have become rich through avoiding paying tax’

Truth: Gypsies and Travellers pay VAT, council tax and utility costs etc. in the same way as the settled population. Where some of this misunderstanding arises is that Gypsy and Traveller wealth is more visible and by necessity portable unlike non-Gypsy culture. A Gypsy family with a new car and caravan may look flashy, but their wealth is just more visible. The amount of capital invested in a (rapidly depreciating) caravan is worth far less than the equity many non-Gypsies have in their houses. Many Gypsies and Travellers do not even own their caravans/chalets, as renting from private companies is not uncommon.

Myth: ‘the children don’t go to school, and if they do they run around out of control’

Truth: As the Gypsy and Traveller lifestyle has changed, so has the need (recognised by the community) for full engagement in education. Being resident in one area affords more continuity of access to local schools and all the benefits that this brings to the community. Unlike many young people who now find their free time filled with electronic distractions, Gypsy and Traveller young people are still able to imaginatively fill their spare time out in the elements. Something which is often bemoaned by adults as being absent for the young people of the wider community.

Myth: Gypsies & Travellers flout planning laws

Truth: In 1994 the government argued that Gypsies and Travellers should set up their own sites. However planning guidance actually made it much harder to obtain planning permission. Although local authorities were expected to make provision for sites in development plans, positive action was rare, and there were very restrictive criteria for site proposals (ACERT 1998, Morris and Clements 1999).

Only 10% of initial planning applications by Gypsies and Travellers succeed compared to 80% of applications from the settled population. For those who, despite these odds, have achieved a family site, the process has been very protracted with numerous different hearings (Johnson and Willers 2004). This greatly increases the stress for families who may need a stable place to live because of serious health problems or to access education.
There is no one ‘blueprint’ for the Gypsy and Traveller culture or community, any more than there is for the diverse British culture. Having said that, most Gypsies and Travellers do have certain cultural things in common which may have evolved from the needs of a life on the road. As a result they face many of the same negative myths. Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are dirty’ Truth: Gypsy culture is built upon strict laws of cleanliness passed down over centuries. For example conventions such as mokkadi and mahrime (pollution and cleanliness rules) place strict guidelines on what objects can be washed in what bowls. Even generally accepted norms such as pet ownership fall under these rules; most Gypsies and Travellers do not allow family pets inside their homes, because they believe them to be unclean and carriers of disease. Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are criminal’ Truth: Gypsy and Traveller society mirrors society in general, some Gypsies and Travellers are involved in crime, but the vast majority live within the law. There is absolutely no evidence to support greater criminal activity by Gypsies and Travellers either nationally or locally. Myth: ‘Gypsies and Travellers have become rich through avoiding paying tax’ Truth: Gypsies and Travellers pay VAT, council tax and utility costs etc. in the same way as the settled population. Where some of this misunderstanding arises is that Gypsy and Traveller wealth is more visible and by necessity portable unlike non-Gypsy culture. A Gypsy family with a new car and caravan may look flashy, but their wealth is just more visible. The amount of capital invested in a (rapidly depreciating) caravan is worth far less than the equity many non-Gypsies have in their houses. Many Gypsies and Travellers do not even own their caravans/chalets, as renting from private companies is not uncommon. Myth: ‘the children don’t go to school, and if they do they run around out of control’ Truth: As the Gypsy and Traveller lifestyle has changed, so has the need (recognised by the community) for full engagement in education. Being resident in one area affords more continuity of access to local schools and all the benefits that this brings to the community. Unlike many young people who now find their free time filled with electronic distractions, Gypsy and Traveller young people are still able to imaginatively fill their spare time out in the elements. Something which is often bemoaned by adults as being absent for the young people of the wider community. Myth: Gypsies & Travellers flout planning laws Truth: In 1994 the government argued that Gypsies and Travellers should set up their own sites. However planning guidance actually made it much harder to obtain planning permission. Although local authorities were expected to make provision for sites in development plans, positive action was rare, and there were very restrictive criteria for site proposals (ACERT 1998, Morris and Clements 1999). Only 10% of initial planning applications by Gypsies and Travellers succeed compared to 80% of applications from the settled population. For those who, despite these odds, have achieved a family site, the process has been very protracted with numerous different hearings (Johnson and Willers 2004). This greatly increases the stress for families who may need a stable place to live because of serious health problems or to access education. brynglas
  • Score: -22

7:49am Sat 19 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

brynglas wrote:
There is no one ‘blueprint’ for the Gypsy and Traveller culture or community, any more than there is for the diverse British culture. Having said that, most Gypsies and Travellers do have certain cultural things in common which may have evolved from the needs of a life on the road. As a result they face many of the same negative myths.

Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are dirty’

Truth: Gypsy culture is built upon strict laws of cleanliness passed down over centuries. For example conventions such as mokkadi and mahrime (pollution and cleanliness rules) place strict guidelines on what objects can be washed in what bowls. Even generally accepted norms such as pet ownership fall under these rules; most Gypsies and Travellers do not allow family pets inside their homes, because they believe them to be unclean and carriers of disease.

Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are criminal’

Truth: Gypsy and Traveller society mirrors society in general, some Gypsies and Travellers are involved in crime, but the vast majority live within the law. There is absolutely no evidence to support greater criminal activity by Gypsies and Travellers either nationally or locally.

Myth: ‘Gypsies and Travellers have become rich through avoiding paying tax’

Truth: Gypsies and Travellers pay VAT, council tax and utility costs etc. in the same way as the settled population. Where some of this misunderstanding arises is that Gypsy and Traveller wealth is more visible and by necessity portable unlike non-Gypsy culture. A Gypsy family with a new car and caravan may look flashy, but their wealth is just more visible. The amount of capital invested in a (rapidly depreciating) caravan is worth far less than the equity many non-Gypsies have in their houses. Many Gypsies and Travellers do not even own their caravans/chalets, as renting from private companies is not uncommon.

Myth: ‘the children don’t go to school, and if they do they run around out of control’

Truth: As the Gypsy and Traveller lifestyle has changed, so has the need (recognised by the community) for full engagement in education. Being resident in one area affords more continuity of access to local schools and all the benefits that this brings to the community. Unlike many young people who now find their free time filled with electronic distractions, Gypsy and Traveller young people are still able to imaginatively fill their spare time out in the elements. Something which is often bemoaned by adults as being absent for the young people of the wider community.

Myth: Gypsies & Travellers flout planning laws

Truth: In 1994 the government argued that Gypsies and Travellers should set up their own sites. However planning guidance actually made it much harder to obtain planning permission. Although local authorities were expected to make provision for sites in development plans, positive action was rare, and there were very restrictive criteria for site proposals (ACERT 1998, Morris and Clements 1999).

Only 10% of initial planning applications by Gypsies and Travellers succeed compared to 80% of applications from the settled population. For those who, despite these odds, have achieved a family site, the process has been very protracted with numerous different hearings (Johnson and Willers 2004). This greatly increases the stress for families who may need a stable place to live because of serious health problems or to access education.
Myth: gypsys and travellers are dirty.

Some evidence for you then. With pictures:

http://www.eveningex
press.co.uk/news/loc
al/clean-up-costs-co
uld-hit-10-000-for-a
berdeen-travellers-s
ite-1.143936

http://www.thecourie
r.co.uk/news/local/d
undee/bill-to-clean-
up-dundee-travellers
-sites-costs-13-000-
1.84856

http://www.theargus.
co.uk/news/10659543.
Wild_Park_clean_up_t
o_cost_thousands_aft
er_travellers_set_up
_camp/

http://www.stokesent
inel.co.uk/Gypsies-c
ost-taxpayers-hundre
ds-pounds-leaving/st
ory-20524381-detail/
story.html

Most people on here recall the horrific mess left at Tredegar House also. So perhaps not myths after all? As for the 'nazi' comparison, it's an overused cliche on here. Sometimes, as has happened with bankers, people are the architects of their own unpopularity. Right?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: There is no one ‘blueprint’ for the Gypsy and Traveller culture or community, any more than there is for the diverse British culture. Having said that, most Gypsies and Travellers do have certain cultural things in common which may have evolved from the needs of a life on the road. As a result they face many of the same negative myths. Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are dirty’ Truth: Gypsy culture is built upon strict laws of cleanliness passed down over centuries. For example conventions such as mokkadi and mahrime (pollution and cleanliness rules) place strict guidelines on what objects can be washed in what bowls. Even generally accepted norms such as pet ownership fall under these rules; most Gypsies and Travellers do not allow family pets inside their homes, because they believe them to be unclean and carriers of disease. Myth: ‘Gypsies & Travellers are criminal’ Truth: Gypsy and Traveller society mirrors society in general, some Gypsies and Travellers are involved in crime, but the vast majority live within the law. There is absolutely no evidence to support greater criminal activity by Gypsies and Travellers either nationally or locally. Myth: ‘Gypsies and Travellers have become rich through avoiding paying tax’ Truth: Gypsies and Travellers pay VAT, council tax and utility costs etc. in the same way as the settled population. Where some of this misunderstanding arises is that Gypsy and Traveller wealth is more visible and by necessity portable unlike non-Gypsy culture. A Gypsy family with a new car and caravan may look flashy, but their wealth is just more visible. The amount of capital invested in a (rapidly depreciating) caravan is worth far less than the equity many non-Gypsies have in their houses. Many Gypsies and Travellers do not even own their caravans/chalets, as renting from private companies is not uncommon. Myth: ‘the children don’t go to school, and if they do they run around out of control’ Truth: As the Gypsy and Traveller lifestyle has changed, so has the need (recognised by the community) for full engagement in education. Being resident in one area affords more continuity of access to local schools and all the benefits that this brings to the community. Unlike many young people who now find their free time filled with electronic distractions, Gypsy and Traveller young people are still able to imaginatively fill their spare time out in the elements. Something which is often bemoaned by adults as being absent for the young people of the wider community. Myth: Gypsies & Travellers flout planning laws Truth: In 1994 the government argued that Gypsies and Travellers should set up their own sites. However planning guidance actually made it much harder to obtain planning permission. Although local authorities were expected to make provision for sites in development plans, positive action was rare, and there were very restrictive criteria for site proposals (ACERT 1998, Morris and Clements 1999). Only 10% of initial planning applications by Gypsies and Travellers succeed compared to 80% of applications from the settled population. For those who, despite these odds, have achieved a family site, the process has been very protracted with numerous different hearings (Johnson and Willers 2004). This greatly increases the stress for families who may need a stable place to live because of serious health problems or to access education.[/p][/quote]Myth: gypsys and travellers are dirty. Some evidence for you then. With pictures: http://www.eveningex press.co.uk/news/loc al/clean-up-costs-co uld-hit-10-000-for-a berdeen-travellers-s ite-1.143936 http://www.thecourie r.co.uk/news/local/d undee/bill-to-clean- up-dundee-travellers -sites-costs-13-000- 1.84856 http://www.theargus. co.uk/news/10659543. Wild_Park_clean_up_t o_cost_thousands_aft er_travellers_set_up _camp/ http://www.stokesent inel.co.uk/Gypsies-c ost-taxpayers-hundre ds-pounds-leaving/st ory-20524381-detail/ story.html Most people on here recall the horrific mess left at Tredegar House also. So perhaps not myths after all? As for the 'nazi' comparison, it's an overused cliche on here. Sometimes, as has happened with bankers, people are the architects of their own unpopularity. Right? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 21

10:38am Sat 19 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Llanmartinangel you prove my point - you are participating with the mass media to persecute a minority. How true or representative are these stories? And how much are these stories a reflection of journalistic or editorial bias? Far from being a cliche my earlier reference to Nazi antiziganism is directly pertinent to the antiziganism displayed on this website - we must never forget how dangerous prejudice can be.
@Llanmartinangel you prove my point - you are participating with the mass media to persecute a minority. How true or representative are these stories? And how much are these stories a reflection of journalistic or editorial bias? Far from being a cliche my earlier reference to Nazi antiziganism is directly pertinent to the antiziganism displayed on this website - we must never forget how dangerous prejudice can be. brynglas
  • Score: -11

3:13pm Sat 19 Apr 14

ollie72 says...

brynglas wrote:
@Llanmartinangel you prove my point - you are participating with the mass media to persecute a minority. How true or representative are these stories? And how much are these stories a reflection of journalistic or editorial bias? Far from being a cliche my earlier reference to Nazi antiziganism is directly pertinent to the antiziganism displayed on this website - we must never forget how dangerous prejudice can be.
@Brynglas.

OK, forgetting anything put out by the "mass media", let's talk about what happens when these clean people move in to a site. I have personally experienced these sites while living in Newport, Brighton, and Coventry.

When the travellers move on, whether by choice or otherwise, a huge amount of rubbish and waste is left behind, strewn across the field in a disgusting display - to be cleaned at council tax payers expense. And no, they do not pay council tax, as "no permanent address" is claimed whenever they are asked to contribute.

I happen to be good friends with one of the Council people who has to go around after the travellers have left the desolation behind. His biggest lament is that even though the council supply portaloos for the community, they go behind the portaloos and sh*t behind them...

And let's not confuse the Eastern European, Romany Gypsies with the "traveller" community - the first is made of a working class culture that travelled Europe following the migrant work, the second are a culture that takes from community, and gives nothing back , while shouting "unfair" when the rest of society insists that they contribute.

I support your right to your point of view, but always get annoyed when people start throwing "prejudice" and persecution" around to try and make a point
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Llanmartinangel you prove my point - you are participating with the mass media to persecute a minority. How true or representative are these stories? And how much are these stories a reflection of journalistic or editorial bias? Far from being a cliche my earlier reference to Nazi antiziganism is directly pertinent to the antiziganism displayed on this website - we must never forget how dangerous prejudice can be.[/p][/quote]@Brynglas. OK, forgetting anything put out by the "mass media", let's talk about what happens when these clean people move in to a site. I have personally experienced these sites while living in Newport, Brighton, and Coventry. When the travellers move on, whether by choice or otherwise, a huge amount of rubbish and waste is left behind, strewn across the field in a disgusting display - to be cleaned at council tax payers expense. And no, they do not pay council tax, as "no permanent address" is claimed whenever they are asked to contribute. I happen to be good friends with one of the Council people who has to go around after the travellers have left the desolation behind. His biggest lament is that even though the council supply portaloos for the community, they go behind the portaloos and sh*t behind them... And let's not confuse the Eastern European, Romany Gypsies with the "traveller" community - the first is made of a working class culture that travelled Europe following the migrant work, the second are a culture that takes from community, and gives nothing back , while shouting "unfair" when the rest of society insists that they contribute. I support your right to your point of view, but always get annoyed when people start throwing "prejudice" and persecution" around to try and make a point ollie72
  • Score: 17

4:19pm Sat 19 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@ollie72 Ok I'll ask you the same question I asked "Llanmartinangel"(wh
ich he/she didn't answer): What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?

By the way "prejudice" and "persecution" are not my words they are used in the Amnesty International report I mentioned.
@ollie72 Ok I'll ask you the same question I asked "Llanmartinangel"(wh ich he/she didn't answer): What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? By the way "prejudice" and "persecution" are not my words they are used in the Amnesty International report I mentioned. brynglas
  • Score: -8

4:52pm Sat 19 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

brynglas wrote:
@ollie72 Ok I'll ask you the same question I asked "Llanmartinange
l"(wh
ich he/she didn't answer): What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?

By the way "prejudice" and "persecution" are not my words they are used in the Amnesty International report I mentioned.
It isn't prejudice if it's true and those newspaper reports and the evidence of people like myself and Ollie, who have seen the mess they leave first hand, is sufficient to convince me (and most others) that they are bringing the acrimony on themselves. If you fail to behave in a civilised manner then you deserve all the opprobrium heaped on you. The opposition to permanent sites is therefore entirely understandable. Here's a question: If you were at all interested in your own reputation, wouldn't you use your vehicles to at least take your own rubbish to the tip? I will believe they are being 'persecuted' when the law on fly-tipping is applied to travellers in the same way as it would be to me.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @ollie72 Ok I'll ask you the same question I asked "Llanmartinange l"(wh ich he/she didn't answer): What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? By the way "prejudice" and "persecution" are not my words they are used in the Amnesty International report I mentioned.[/p][/quote]It isn't prejudice if it's true and those newspaper reports and the evidence of people like myself and Ollie, who have seen the mess they leave first hand, is sufficient to convince me (and most others) that they are bringing the acrimony on themselves. If you fail to behave in a civilised manner then you deserve all the opprobrium heaped on you. The opposition to permanent sites is therefore entirely understandable. Here's a question: If you were at all interested in your own reputation, wouldn't you use your vehicles to at least take your own rubbish to the tip? I will believe they are being 'persecuted' when the law on fly-tipping is applied to travellers in the same way as it would be to me. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 10

5:19pm Sat 19 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?

Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?
@Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off? brynglas
  • Score: -14

5:21pm Sat 19 Apr 14

ollie72 says...

brynglas wrote:
@ollie72 Ok I'll ask you the same question I asked "Llanmartinange
l"(wh
ich he/she didn't answer): What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?

By the way "prejudice" and "persecution" are not my words they are used in the Amnesty International report I mentioned.
Everyone needs somewhere to call home, and I don't have a problem with permanent sites that give the traveller community a chance at proper amenities etc - they just need to accept that they are part of society, rather than demanding everything and contributing less...

If they want the permanent sites, they should leave each pitch in at least as good repair as when they moved there.

With a change as small as that, society would be much more happy to "live and let live".
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @ollie72 Ok I'll ask you the same question I asked "Llanmartinange l"(wh ich he/she didn't answer): What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? By the way "prejudice" and "persecution" are not my words they are used in the Amnesty International report I mentioned.[/p][/quote]Everyone needs somewhere to call home, and I don't have a problem with permanent sites that give the traveller community a chance at proper amenities etc - they just need to accept that they are part of society, rather than demanding everything and contributing less... If they want the permanent sites, they should leave each pitch in at least as good repair as when they moved there. With a change as small as that, society would be much more happy to "live and let live". ollie72
  • Score: 14

5:30pm Sat 19 Apr 14

rover100rich says...

i live in ireland where face to face experience with travellers is part of life , ive met settled traveller neighbours who seem very nice , ive been verbally abused by traveller children ,been harrassed to buy things from them , they dont let their dogs in the van they leave them to roam the local community in packs attacking peoples cats or get themselves run over , 85% here are claiming unemployment ,they want us to provide traveller housing for them where they can live altogether with their families and horses but of course they cant live near other families because of feuds , they are claiming here ethnic minority status and will probably soon get this ,ive tried to maintain a positive opinion about travellers but its hard when you have negative experiences with them
i live in ireland where face to face experience with travellers is part of life , ive met settled traveller neighbours who seem very nice , ive been verbally abused by traveller children ,been harrassed to buy things from them , they dont let their dogs in the van they leave them to roam the local community in packs attacking peoples cats or get themselves run over , 85% here are claiming unemployment ,they want us to provide traveller housing for them where they can live altogether with their families and horses but of course they cant live near other families because of feuds , they are claiming here ethnic minority status and will probably soon get this ,ive tried to maintain a positive opinion about travellers but its hard when you have negative experiences with them rover100rich
  • Score: 16

5:40pm Sat 19 Apr 14

Woodgnome says...

brynglas wrote:
@Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?

Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?
I don't agree with blind prejudice either but on your second point that's no excuse at all. The travelling community will do nothing to endear themselves to the settled community if they have that attitude. Leaving sites as a filthy tip and allegedly breaking through locked gates does nothing for the traveller case.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?[/p][/quote]I don't agree with blind prejudice either but on your second point that's no excuse at all. The travelling community will do nothing to endear themselves to the settled community if they have that attitude. Leaving sites as a filthy tip and allegedly breaking through locked gates does nothing for the traveller case. Woodgnome
  • Score: 12

5:49pm Sat 19 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@ollie72 But "society" hates them, keeps evicting them and refuses to give them the space they need - this is nothing new, it has been the same for centuries. The attitudes displayed on this website are totally remote from "live and let live" - one commentator (Dai Reader) suggested they all go to Ukraine as he believes they "have no connection with Wales".

In truth the settled community says "now be good travellers and don't leave any rubbish and we'll find somewhere out of the way (like next to a landfill) for you to camp,(maybe, if the locals don't campaign against it). It won't be very big mind, so don't invite your friends (we don't want any more of you), we need all the spare land we've got to build another shopping complex, relief road and housing estate. And if you don't do as we say we'll just keep evicting you".
@ollie72 But "society" hates them, keeps evicting them and refuses to give them the space they need - this is nothing new, it has been the same for centuries. The attitudes displayed on this website are totally remote from "live and let live" - one commentator (Dai Reader) suggested they all go to Ukraine as he believes they "have no connection with Wales". In truth the settled community says "now be good travellers and don't leave any rubbish and we'll find somewhere out of the way (like next to a landfill) for you to camp,(maybe, if the locals don't campaign against it). It won't be very big mind, so don't invite your friends (we don't want any more of you), we need all the spare land we've got to build another shopping complex, relief road and housing estate. And if you don't do as we say we'll just keep evicting you". brynglas
  • Score: -14

5:58pm Sat 19 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

brynglas wrote:
@Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?

Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?
'would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?'

In an earlier post you implied that they were 'clean'. Which is it?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?[/p][/quote]'would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?' In an earlier post you implied that they were 'clean'. Which is it? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 10

6:13pm Sat 19 Apr 14

Woodgnome says...

brynglas wrote:
@ollie72 But "society" hates them, keeps evicting them and refuses to give them the space they need - this is nothing new, it has been the same for centuries. The attitudes displayed on this website are totally remote from "live and let live" - one commentator (Dai Reader) suggested they all go to Ukraine as he believes they "have no connection with Wales".

In truth the settled community says "now be good travellers and don't leave any rubbish and we'll find somewhere out of the way (like next to a landfill) for you to camp,(maybe, if the locals don't campaign against it). It won't be very big mind, so don't invite your friends (we don't want any more of you), we need all the spare land we've got to build another shopping complex, relief road and housing estate. And if you don't do as we say we'll just keep evicting you".
I'm wondering if "it's been the same for centuries" a significant change of approach is required on both sides? The UK govt has set the ball rolling by passing laws that require local authorities to identify need and provide sites. The anecdotal evidence and observed evidence is that travellers leave short and long tern temporary sites in dirty condition. Please advise me what the traveller community are doing to change their approach - particularly on the tidy sites front?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @ollie72 But "society" hates them, keeps evicting them and refuses to give them the space they need - this is nothing new, it has been the same for centuries. The attitudes displayed on this website are totally remote from "live and let live" - one commentator (Dai Reader) suggested they all go to Ukraine as he believes they "have no connection with Wales". In truth the settled community says "now be good travellers and don't leave any rubbish and we'll find somewhere out of the way (like next to a landfill) for you to camp,(maybe, if the locals don't campaign against it). It won't be very big mind, so don't invite your friends (we don't want any more of you), we need all the spare land we've got to build another shopping complex, relief road and housing estate. And if you don't do as we say we'll just keep evicting you".[/p][/quote]I'm wondering if "it's been the same for centuries" a significant change of approach is required on both sides? The UK govt has set the ball rolling by passing laws that require local authorities to identify need and provide sites. The anecdotal evidence and observed evidence is that travellers leave short and long tern temporary sites in dirty condition. Please advise me what the traveller community are doing to change their approach - particularly on the tidy sites front? Woodgnome
  • Score: 9

7:19pm Sat 19 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@woodgnome
@Llanmartinangel
@ollie72

here are some resources set up by the gypsy traveller communities, maybe you should use these as your information sources, rather than the SWA and the Daily Mail.

https://www.facebook
.com/FriendsFamilies
andTravellers
http://www.gypsy-tra
veller.org/
@woodgnome @Llanmartinangel @ollie72 here are some resources set up by the gypsy traveller communities, maybe you should use these as your information sources, rather than the SWA and the Daily Mail. https://www.facebook .com/FriendsFamilies andTravellers http://www.gypsy-tra veller.org/ brynglas
  • Score: -7

7:26pm Sat 19 Apr 14

brynglas says...

A more enlightened approach in Leeds...

http://travellerspac
e-gypsyroads.blogspo
t.co.uk/2014/03/zero
-tolerance-not-only-
way.html
A more enlightened approach in Leeds... http://travellerspac e-gypsyroads.blogspo t.co.uk/2014/03/zero -tolerance-not-only- way.html brynglas
  • Score: -8

9:58pm Sat 19 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

brynglas wrote:
@woodgnome
@Llanmartinangel
@ollie72

here are some resources set up by the gypsy traveller communities, maybe you should use these as your information sources, rather than the SWA and the Daily Mail.

https://www.facebook

.com/FriendsFamilies

andTravellers
http://www.gypsy-tra

veller.org/
Kind of odd then that I posted links from neither of those papers. Presumably you are claiming your sources as 'impartial'?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @woodgnome @Llanmartinangel @ollie72 here are some resources set up by the gypsy traveller communities, maybe you should use these as your information sources, rather than the SWA and the Daily Mail. https://www.facebook .com/FriendsFamilies andTravellers http://www.gypsy-tra veller.org/[/p][/quote]Kind of odd then that I posted links from neither of those papers. Presumably you are claiming your sources as 'impartial'? Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 6

8:11am Sun 20 Apr 14

displayed says...

Former councillor, David Hando, a trustee of the Newport Traveller Sites Study Group and a resident of Ringland said: “They’ve got to go somewhere"

Im sure ex-councillor David Hando would be delighted to have them camp outside his house!

Over to ewe David...............
.......
Former councillor, David Hando, a trustee of the Newport Traveller Sites Study Group and a resident of Ringland said: “They’ve got to go somewhere" Im sure ex-councillor David Hando would be delighted to have them camp outside his house! Over to ewe David............... ....... displayed
  • Score: 8

8:43am Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Llanmartinangel No, not impartial, but it is often useful to try to see things from another person's point of view.
@Llanmartinangel No, not impartial, but it is often useful to try to see things from another person's point of view. brynglas
  • Score: -8

11:03am Sun 20 Apr 14

Woodgnome says...

brynglas wrote:
@Llanmartinangel No, not impartial, but it is often useful to try to see things from another person's point of view.
I could not agree more that the other point of view must be seen - but the traveller PR machine is not good at explaining the misconceptions you say the settled community have about travellers. For example how does the traveller PR machine explain report after report after report of sites being left in a dirty condition that costs the landowner/local authorities £thousands to clear up? Are you saying that there is no truth in such reports?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Llanmartinangel No, not impartial, but it is often useful to try to see things from another person's point of view.[/p][/quote]I could not agree more that the other point of view must be seen - but the traveller PR machine is not good at explaining the misconceptions you say the settled community have about travellers. For example how does the traveller PR machine explain report after report after report of sites being left in a dirty condition that costs the landowner/local authorities £thousands to clear up? Are you saying that there is no truth in such reports? Woodgnome
  • Score: 8

11:37am Sun 20 Apr 14

welshmen says...

A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....
A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE.... welshmen
  • Score: 4

12:19pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Jedi Master Katarn wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
manager111 wrote:
They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.
Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law.


Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?
Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race.

It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country.

It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice.

But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house.

Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage.

They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused.

The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.
In fact, gypsies originally came from India.
[quote][p][bold]Jedi Master Katarn[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]manager111[/bold] wrote: They are having their Easter holidays, I can't see a hotel putting them up.[/p][/quote]Can't see a hotel putting them up eh? Yeah, maybe they should put signs up in the windows...No Gypsies.......like in the 60s. Oh no I forgot, thankfully that would be against the law. Is the Argus going to remove racist comments on this article?[/p][/quote]Firstly it's not Raceism as they are not a Ethic Race. It's not Nationalism as they are not from a specific country. It's just plain old fashioned Prejudice. But, they are NOT Gypsies. Gypsies are of Eastern European origin and were nomadic because of the harsh climate and conditions that they lived on. For example the winters in Wallachia were particulary bad and force people to have to move if they couldn't afford survive by hibernating in a specific location like a house. Gypsies have hundreds of years of tradition and heritage. They are Travellers as in Irish Travellers who do not have the same qualities and histories and should not be confused. The same as British and French should not be confused because they are both from Europe.[/p][/quote]In fact, gypsies originally came from India. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: -1

12:25pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

bugsy93 wrote:
Breaking a lock off a gate constitutes criminal damage. Also illegal fly-tipping and littering is an offence.Recording the registration plates of their vehicles and prosecuting the registered owners for these offences should be a deterrent.
A permanent site will not stop these from setting -up camps to work in the area for a period and move on else where once they have made their mess and filth.
The Police and Council seem to have a weak approach in dealing with these ,only to make a point of 'how much it cost' to clear up the mess afterwards.
Also, they are worried about the potential outcry from human rights activists and left wing politically correct liberals.
The Police are no longer on the side of the law-abiding individual.
They would rather do nothing and hope the problem goes away.
[quote][p][bold]bugsy93[/bold] wrote: Breaking a lock off a gate constitutes criminal damage. Also illegal fly-tipping and littering is an offence.Recording the registration plates of their vehicles and prosecuting the registered owners for these offences should be a deterrent. A permanent site will not stop these from setting -up camps to work in the area for a period and move on else where once they have made their mess and filth. The Police and Council seem to have a weak approach in dealing with these ,only to make a point of 'how much it cost' to clear up the mess afterwards.[/p][/quote]Also, they are worried about the potential outcry from human rights activists and left wing politically correct liberals. The Police are no longer on the side of the law-abiding individual. They would rather do nothing and hope the problem goes away. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 9

12:26pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

bugsy93 wrote:
What ever the race creed or colour , an offence is an offence. The unacceptable lifestyle they choose should not be a reason to expect any leniency when laws are breached. A cigarette dropped in the street will cost a £75 fixed penalty. to the rest of us. Tons of conifer cuttings, lorry tyres and excrement left hanging in trees in plastic bags by travellers are overlooked by the authorities when it suits them.
Exactly, a law for them and a different law for everybody else.
[quote][p][bold]bugsy93[/bold] wrote: What ever the race creed or colour , an offence is an offence. The unacceptable lifestyle they choose should not be a reason to expect any leniency when laws are breached. A cigarette dropped in the street will cost a £75 fixed penalty. to the rest of us. Tons of conifer cuttings, lorry tyres and excrement left hanging in trees in plastic bags by travellers are overlooked by the authorities when it suits them.[/p][/quote]Exactly, a law for them and a different law for everybody else. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 3

12:28pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
Wildethoughts wrote:
Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010.

Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.
Quite right - many of the comments on here are sickening - Gypsies and Irish Travellers are people. They may have different lifestyles to settled communities but they have as much right to be here as any other citizen. I live about 1/2 mile from a gypsy camp - they're fine, much less of a problem than many of my settled neighbours!
They have a right to be here, but they don't have a right to break the law with impunity.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildethoughts[/bold] wrote: Gypsies and Irish Travellers were included in the Race Relations Act back in the 90s and discrimination against them is now covered by the Equality Act 2010. Always best to educate yourself before stating what you believe to be 'facts'.[/p][/quote]Quite right - many of the comments on here are sickening - Gypsies and Irish Travellers are people. They may have different lifestyles to settled communities but they have as much right to be here as any other citizen. I live about 1/2 mile from a gypsy camp - they're fine, much less of a problem than many of my settled neighbours![/p][/quote]They have a right to be here, but they don't have a right to break the law with impunity. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 3

12:31pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
@Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites?

Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?
Put them on Flatholme or Steepholme, plenty of room for them there.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Llanmartinangel and you still haven't answered my question: What would you suggest as a solution for the lack of camp sites? Here's another question: if you were the subject of repeated evictions at short notice would you be concerned with the appearance of the land you'd just been kicked off?[/p][/quote]Put them on Flatholme or Steepholme, plenty of room for them there. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 3

3:35pm Sun 20 Apr 14

cymruamblyth says...

brynglas wrote:
@woodgnome
@Llanmartinangel
@ollie72

here are some resources set up by the gypsy traveller communities, maybe you should use these as your information sources, rather than the SWA and the Daily Mail.

https://www.facebook

.com/FriendsFamilies

andTravellers
http://www.gypsy-tra

veller.org/
I was waiting for a smarmy, sock molesting, pedant to get their socks off and make the Daily Mail insult then just ignore it anyway.

Why do you always answer a question with a question , but refuse to answer any questions asked of you, instead make insults?

Two questions
Do you live in Brynglas?
How old are you?

Seeing Brynglas is privately owned houses of about 300 and I believe a few Councillors live on the street so no chance of the Gypsy's going there..

Maybe you can answer a questions and people won't think your a pedant 12 year old loser quoting insults you heard of Little Britain's.. I'm looking forward to you proving yourself a even bigger hypocrite by
A :refusing to answer
B: reporting this post because I called you a pedant, ignoring the fact you insulted Angel, Dai and Ollie..
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @woodgnome @Llanmartinangel @ollie72 here are some resources set up by the gypsy traveller communities, maybe you should use these as your information sources, rather than the SWA and the Daily Mail. https://www.facebook .com/FriendsFamilies andTravellers http://www.gypsy-tra veller.org/[/p][/quote]I was waiting for a smarmy, sock molesting, pedant to get their socks off and make the Daily Mail insult then just ignore it anyway. Why do you always answer a question with a question , but refuse to answer any questions asked of you, instead make insults? Two questions Do you live in Brynglas? How old are you? Seeing Brynglas is privately owned houses of about 300 and I believe a few Councillors live on the street so no chance of the Gypsy's going there.. Maybe you can answer a questions and people won't think your a pedant 12 year old loser quoting insults you heard of Little Britain's.. I'm looking forward to you proving yourself a even bigger hypocrite by A :refusing to answer B: reporting this post because I called you a pedant, ignoring the fact you insulted Angel, Dai and Ollie.. cymruamblyth
  • Score: 4

4:09pm Sun 20 Apr 14

cymruamblyth says...

One more thing firstly you state that Gypsy's are very clean and always clean up they're mess and that they dump rubbish is a myth made up by Daily Mail reading Fascists

Your next post you say they do dump rubbish as they know there going to get kicked of the site which they're camping on illegally, so why should they clean up. Your just digging a even bigger hole for yourself!
One more thing firstly you state that Gypsy's are very clean and always clean up they're mess and that they dump rubbish is a myth made up by Daily Mail reading Fascists Your next post you say they do dump rubbish as they know there going to get kicked of the site which they're camping on illegally, so why should they clean up. Your just digging a even bigger hole for yourself! cymruamblyth
  • Score: 2

4:59pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@cymruamblyth

I'm 51
No, I don't live in the suburb of Newport called Brynglas, "bryn glas" just means "blue hill", no location intended.
My posts contained no insults; unlike yours. Have you heard of the term "argumentum ad hominem"?
The antiziganist attitudes displayed in this column are shameful in my opinion. Stating that is not an insult.

And by the way: "you're" versus "your":
"You're" is a contraction of you are.
"Your" is a possessive adjective.
@cymruamblyth I'm 51 No, I don't live in the suburb of Newport called Brynglas, "bryn glas" just means "blue hill", no location intended. My posts contained no insults; unlike yours. Have you heard of the term "argumentum ad hominem"? The antiziganist attitudes displayed in this column are shameful in my opinion. Stating that is not an insult. And by the way: "you're" versus "your": "You're" is a contraction of you are. "Your" is a possessive adjective. brynglas
  • Score: -2

5:10pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

welshmen wrote:
A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....
@welshmen

So how are the "Native City Council Tax payers" to be recognised?
What do you propose to do with the "non-native" people already resident?

You say "let the people VOTE" but you seem to want to pick and choose who is eligible to vote. Is that really democracy?
[quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....[/p][/quote]@welshmen So how are the "Native City Council Tax payers" to be recognised? What do you propose to do with the "non-native" people already resident? You say "let the people VOTE" but you seem to want to pick and choose who is eligible to vote. Is that really democracy? brynglas
  • Score: 0

5:19pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

welshmen wrote:
A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....
When it comes to "truth" newspapers are not the best purveyors of it; they are in the commercial "news" market and not the "truth" market. "News" and "truth" often overlap, but not reliably so.
[quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....[/p][/quote]When it comes to "truth" newspapers are not the best purveyors of it; they are in the commercial "news" market and not the "truth" market. "News" and "truth" often overlap, but not reliably so. brynglas
  • Score: 2

5:20pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

sorry, meant to quote/answer Woodgnome in my last post.
sorry, meant to quote/answer Woodgnome in my last post. brynglas
  • Score: -1

5:41pm Sun 20 Apr 14

ollie72 says...

brynglas wrote:
welshmen wrote:
A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....
When it comes to "truth" newspapers are not the best purveyors of it; they are in the commercial "news" market and not the "truth" market. "News" and "truth" often overlap, but not reliably so.
True, the media will tell the story that is most sensational and sells most papers (or gets biggest ratings).

However, most here are complaining about instances that they have witnessed themselves.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....[/p][/quote]When it comes to "truth" newspapers are not the best purveyors of it; they are in the commercial "news" market and not the "truth" market. "News" and "truth" often overlap, but not reliably so.[/p][/quote]True, the media will tell the story that is most sensational and sells most papers (or gets biggest ratings). However, most here are complaining about instances that they have witnessed themselves. ollie72
  • Score: 5

6:07pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@ollie72 Ok, even if there are such instances (I'll take your word for it), it raises the question as to whether the travellers have been provided with basic waste disposal facilities. If they took a van or a truck to a waste transfer station would they be allowed to unload their waste free? I think not. If someone is constantly on the move they can't have a wheelie bin and a fortnightly collection. If there were more camps with recycling and waste disposal facilities then the instances you describe would be avoided.
@ollie72 Ok, even if there are such instances (I'll take your word for it), it raises the question as to whether the travellers have been provided with basic waste disposal facilities. If they took a van or a truck to a waste transfer station would they be allowed to unload their waste free? I think not. If someone is constantly on the move they can't have a wheelie bin and a fortnightly collection. If there were more camps with recycling and waste disposal facilities then the instances you describe would be avoided. brynglas
  • Score: -3

6:26pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Woodgnome says...

You haven't actually answered any of the points I put to you brynglas. I know very well that newspapers put spin on some of their stories but are you saying that there is no truth in any of them at all? Are you saying the dirty site reputations is a complete myth?
You haven't actually answered any of the points I put to you brynglas. I know very well that newspapers put spin on some of their stories but are you saying that there is no truth in any of them at all? Are you saying the dirty site reputations is a complete myth? Woodgnome
  • Score: 3

6:35pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@woodgnome I've just dealt with that in my reply to ollie72
@woodgnome I've just dealt with that in my reply to ollie72 brynglas
  • Score: -4

6:43pm Sun 20 Apr 14

ollie72 says...

brynglas wrote:
@ollie72 Ok, even if there are such instances (I'll take your word for it), it raises the question as to whether the travellers have been provided with basic waste disposal facilities. If they took a van or a truck to a waste transfer station would they be allowed to unload their waste free? I think not. If someone is constantly on the move they can't have a wheelie bin and a fortnightly collection. If there were more camps with recycling and waste disposal facilities then the instances you describe would be avoided.
To be fair Brynglas, I don't get my waste taken away for free, so why should anyone? a portion of my Council tax pays for my waste removal.

And as I said previously, portaloos and dumpsters are dropped off by the council - even to temporary illegal sites - and are ignored.

We can argue that people should not be treated in a negative manner, but surely by the same argument you agree that people should act in a positive manner?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @ollie72 Ok, even if there are such instances (I'll take your word for it), it raises the question as to whether the travellers have been provided with basic waste disposal facilities. If they took a van or a truck to a waste transfer station would they be allowed to unload their waste free? I think not. If someone is constantly on the move they can't have a wheelie bin and a fortnightly collection. If there were more camps with recycling and waste disposal facilities then the instances you describe would be avoided.[/p][/quote]To be fair Brynglas, I don't get my waste taken away for free, so why should anyone? a portion of my Council tax pays for my waste removal. And as I said previously, portaloos and dumpsters are dropped off by the council - even to temporary illegal sites - and are ignored. We can argue that people should not be treated in a negative manner, but surely by the same argument you agree that people should act in a positive manner? ollie72
  • Score: 5

6:50pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
@ollie72 Ok, even if there are such instances (I'll take your word for it), it raises the question as to whether the travellers have been provided with basic waste disposal facilities. If they took a van or a truck to a waste transfer station would they be allowed to unload their waste free? I think not. If someone is constantly on the move they can't have a wheelie bin and a fortnightly collection. If there were more camps with recycling and waste disposal facilities then the instances you describe would be avoided.
Why don't they just pay for their waste to be removed by a Waste Services Contractor, as all businesses have to do?
They carry enough undeclared cash to not expect the legitimate TAXPAYER to have to contribute.
They don't pay Council Tax so why should they be provided with free waste disposal facilities?
Why should taxpayers have to fund their feral lifestyle?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @ollie72 Ok, even if there are such instances (I'll take your word for it), it raises the question as to whether the travellers have been provided with basic waste disposal facilities. If they took a van or a truck to a waste transfer station would they be allowed to unload their waste free? I think not. If someone is constantly on the move they can't have a wheelie bin and a fortnightly collection. If there were more camps with recycling and waste disposal facilities then the instances you describe would be avoided.[/p][/quote]Why don't they just pay for their waste to be removed by a Waste Services Contractor, as all businesses have to do? They carry enough undeclared cash to not expect the legitimate TAXPAYER to have to contribute. They don't pay Council Tax so why should they be provided with free waste disposal facilities? Why should taxpayers have to fund their feral lifestyle? Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 5

6:54pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Woodgnome says...

brynglas wrote:
@woodgnome I've just dealt with that in my reply to ollie72
I think not.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @woodgnome I've just dealt with that in my reply to ollie72[/p][/quote]I think not. Woodgnome
  • Score: 4

6:56pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Dai Rear says...

brynglas wrote:
To all of you who have left prejudiced comments aimed at gypsies and travellers:

Did you know that historical persecution of gypsies and travellers has been so prevalent and widespread it has a name: antiziganism?

According to a report issued by Amnesty International in 2011 systematic discrimination is taking place against up to 10 million across Europe. The organization has documented the failures of governments across the continent to live up to their obligations.

How does it feel to be helping to persecute a vulnerable minority?
"antiziganism" will NOT be a noun that relates to the Irish tinker, who most of us have had dealings with as a tarmacer. It is made of 2 words. "Anti" is obvious. The other relates to zigeuner, zingari, call them what you will , but those who came from a long way east of here, not the tinker who came from a short way west. We know they occupy a special place in the hearts of the West Hampstead centre left bourgeoisie, whose favourite boo words are "persecute" prejudice" discriminate" demonise". That may well be because there are neither tinkers or zingari camped round West Hampstead.
Anyway you guys will have your First Jewish Prime Minister in 2015 and everything will be hunky dory. So don't fret. Meanwhile, back in the real world.....you are very glad you're not living near them in Ringland.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: To all of you who have left prejudiced comments aimed at gypsies and travellers: Did you know that historical persecution of gypsies and travellers has been so prevalent and widespread it has a name: antiziganism? According to a report issued by Amnesty International in 2011 systematic discrimination is taking place against up to 10 million [Romani/gypsies/travellers] across Europe. The organization has documented the failures of governments across the continent to live up to their obligations. How does it feel to be helping to persecute a vulnerable minority?[/p][/quote]"antiziganism" will NOT be a noun that relates to the Irish tinker, who most of us have had dealings with as a tarmacer. It is made of 2 words. "Anti" is obvious. The other relates to zigeuner, zingari, call them what you will , but those who came from a long way east of here, not the tinker who came from a short way west. We know they occupy a special place in the hearts of the West Hampstead centre left bourgeoisie, whose favourite boo words are "persecute" prejudice" discriminate" demonise". That may well be because there are neither tinkers or zingari camped round West Hampstead. Anyway you guys will have your First Jewish Prime Minister in 2015 and everything will be hunky dory. So don't fret. Meanwhile, back in the real world.....you are very glad you're not living near them in Ringland. Dai Rear
  • Score: 1

6:59pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes?
All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax!
All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.
@Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes? All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax! All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers. brynglas
  • Score: -5

7:15pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Dai Reader Just to clarify: I live in the Gwent area, 800 metres from a local authority Gypsy Traveller camp and 500 metres from a private "authorised" Gypsy Traveller camp.

I fail to see how West Hampstead and Ed Milliband's Jewish heritage is at all relevant... More ad hominem?

Whether Gypsies and Travellers are from the East or West, the xenophobic sentiment among many right here in the settled community is plain to see. Call the sentiment what you will, there's no disguising its true nature.
@Dai Reader Just to clarify: I live in the Gwent area, 800 metres from a local authority Gypsy Traveller camp and 500 metres from a private "authorised" Gypsy Traveller camp. I fail to see how West Hampstead and Ed Milliband's Jewish heritage is at all relevant... More ad hominem? Whether Gypsies and Travellers are from the East or West, the xenophobic sentiment among many right here in the settled community is plain to see. Call the sentiment what you will, there's no disguising its true nature. brynglas
  • Score: -4

7:19pm Sun 20 Apr 14

rover100rich says...

benjamin disraeli was jewish
benjamin disraeli was jewish rover100rich
  • Score: 1

7:25pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Dai Rear says...

brynglas wrote:
@Dai Reader Just to clarify: I live in the Gwent area, 800 metres from a local authority Gypsy Traveller camp and 500 metres from a private "authorised" Gypsy Traveller camp.

I fail to see how West Hampstead and Ed Milliband's Jewish heritage is at all relevant... More ad hominem?

Whether Gypsies and Travellers are from the East or West, the xenophobic sentiment among many right here in the settled community is plain to see. Call the sentiment what you will, there's no disguising its true nature.
Well, you say it's an irrational fear of foreigners (xenophobia) but there are hundreds of thousands of hard working nationals of the Irish Republic here since the 1922 Treaty. Who is irrationally afraid of them? As to the zingari, you'd have to be quite an expert to spot them without any trappings. Again, who has an irrational fear of them and do those who do see them as foreigners or just people they'd prefer to avoid? I don't actually believe you when you say you live 870 yards from etc. West Hampstead is what the elite of the UK is about and its dinner parties are FOR tinkers & zingari, "but not on the Heath darling". And I was under the impression that when Miliband was in charge Utopia would return. And he's right; he will be first Jewish PM. The 19th century bloke was actually Dai Reilly from Splott and only pretended to be D'Israeli to borrow cash from Rothschild for the Suez Canal.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Dai Reader Just to clarify: I live in the Gwent area, 800 metres from a local authority Gypsy Traveller camp and 500 metres from a private "authorised" Gypsy Traveller camp. I fail to see how West Hampstead and Ed Milliband's Jewish heritage is at all relevant... More ad hominem? Whether Gypsies and Travellers are from the East or West, the xenophobic sentiment among many right here in the settled community is plain to see. Call the sentiment what you will, there's no disguising its true nature.[/p][/quote]Well, you say it's an irrational fear of foreigners (xenophobia) but there are hundreds of thousands of hard working nationals of the Irish Republic here since the 1922 Treaty. Who is irrationally afraid of them? As to the zingari, you'd have to be quite an expert to spot them without any trappings. Again, who has an irrational fear of them and do those who do see them as foreigners or just people they'd prefer to avoid? I don't actually believe you when you say you live 870 yards from etc. West Hampstead is what the elite of the UK is about and its dinner parties are FOR tinkers & zingari, "but not on the Heath darling". And I was under the impression that when Miliband was in charge Utopia would return. And he's right; he will be first Jewish PM. The 19th century bloke was actually Dai Reilly from Splott and only pretended to be D'Israeli to borrow cash from Rothschild for the Suez Canal. Dai Rear
  • Score: 4

7:40pm Sun 20 Apr 14

Lliswerry Man says...

There has been Gypsies camping around Ringland, since I was at Milton Junior School, they come and go, yearly. Thats 35 years ago, that I know of.

All thats changed is peoples views of them.

I lived in the Maisonettes that back onto what is now the SDR, and they used to set up camp each year by the Hotel, until the council banked up the earth to stop them accessing it.

They never caused any real harm. A few residents claimed items went missing, but this happens all the time now whether Gypsies are camping or not.
Again, the masses picking on the Minority, we appear in the UK to have forgotten, what our ancestors went to war for, Freedom, which includes the Freedom to Roam...... These councils are simply forgetting who owns the land, they are only the Guardians of it.... its time the Courts in this country started to USE the law as its meant to be used, that being remove UNLAWFUL people, of all races.... who stay where they should not, BUT also PROTECT those with a right to set up camp in the FREE country with which we live.

I can just imagine in stone age times... the local caveman, stomping his feet, because Joe Bloggs moved into the wasteland infront of him.... and wanted to set up home.

Look at it this way people... IF all people who travel and live in Caravans, all decided to live in Houses, we do not have enough already to go around, and if they did find one, they could be your Permanent Neighbours.
There has been Gypsies camping around Ringland, since I was at Milton Junior School, they come and go, yearly. Thats 35 years ago, that I know of. All thats changed is peoples views of them. I lived in the Maisonettes that back onto what is now the SDR, and they used to set up camp each year by the Hotel, until the council banked up the earth to stop them accessing it. They never caused any real harm. A few residents claimed items went missing, but this happens all the time now whether Gypsies are camping or not. Again, the masses picking on the Minority, we appear in the UK to have forgotten, what our ancestors went to war for, Freedom, which includes the Freedom to Roam...... These councils are simply forgetting who owns the land, they are only the Guardians of it.... its time the Courts in this country started to USE the law as its meant to be used, that being remove UNLAWFUL people, of all races.... who stay where they should not, BUT also PROTECT those with a right to set up camp in the FREE country with which we live. I can just imagine in stone age times... the local caveman, stomping his feet, because Joe Bloggs moved into the wasteland infront of him.... and wanted to set up home. Look at it this way people... IF all people who travel and live in Caravans, all decided to live in Houses, we do not have enough already to go around, and if they did find one, they could be your Permanent Neighbours. Lliswerry Man
  • Score: -10

7:41pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Dai Rear Dictionary definitions of xenophobia include: deep-rooted, irrational hatred towards foreigners (Oxford English Dictionary; OED), unreasonable fear or hatred of the unfamiliar (Webster's).

I'm not going to be deflected from the main issue here, by your questions about the origins and ethnicities of Gypsies, Irish Travellers and other itinerant groups. The fact remains that they are all treated equally badly by many in the settled community.
@Dai Rear Dictionary definitions of xenophobia include: deep-rooted, irrational hatred towards foreigners (Oxford English Dictionary; OED), unreasonable fear or hatred of the unfamiliar (Webster's). I'm not going to be deflected from the main issue here, by your questions about the origins and ethnicities of Gypsies, Irish Travellers and other itinerant groups. The fact remains that they are all treated equally badly by many in the settled community. brynglas
  • Score: -8

7:44pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Lliswerry Man Totally agree. Good points.
@Lliswerry Man Totally agree. Good points. brynglas
  • Score: -7

8:07pm Sun 20 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Dai Rear I just noticed your sentence " I don't actually believe you when you say you live 870 yards from etc. " in your earlier post.

I do in fact live in the Gwent area, 800 metres from a local authority Gypsy Traveller camp and 500 metres from a private authorised Gypsy Traveller camp. I've got no reason to lie about it.

Forgive me if I don't publicise my full name and address on this website as proof - some of the views expressed in comments here are so extreme I really wouldn't want those commentators turning up at my front door.
@Dai Rear I just noticed your sentence " I don't actually believe you when you say you live 870 yards from etc. " in your earlier post. I do in fact live in the Gwent area, 800 metres from a local authority Gypsy Traveller camp and 500 metres from a private authorised Gypsy Traveller camp. I've got no reason to lie about it. Forgive me if I don't publicise my full name and address on this website as proof - some of the views expressed in comments here are so extreme I really wouldn't want those commentators turning up at my front door. brynglas
  • Score: -7

8:22am Mon 21 Apr 14

Dai Rear says...

brynglas wrote:
@Dai Rear Dictionary definitions of xenophobia include: deep-rooted, irrational hatred towards foreigners (Oxford English Dictionary; OED), unreasonable fear or hatred of the unfamiliar (Webster's).

I'm not going to be deflected from the main issue here, by your questions about the origins and ethnicities of Gypsies, Irish Travellers and other itinerant groups. The fact remains that they are all treated equally badly by many in the settled community.
The word "phobia" means irrational fear. It does not mean "hatred", however much Humpty Dumpty might say it does. Conflating Celts with other races is exactly what it suits the left to do. You are pretty left I think. You'd not wish to dispute that anyone who speaks of "ethnicities" in their private life will not be of a liberal disposition. There is no such thing as the "settled community". I assume you live in a house or flat and do not demand the privilege of taking your children out of school and off to Stow Fair to make a filthy mess round the lanes where I used to cycle. You would therefore presumably say you are of that "community" from which it follows that you posit a community of interest with me. I equally do not wish to partially tarmac people's drives for an extortionate sum nor kill my cousin in an Oxford Hotel for dancing with the "wrong" woman. Are you seriously suggesting that you and I have any "community" of interests/views? The "settled community" is just another piece of left-speak. As to your second post, I'll tell you why it does not ring true. No one living in a radius described by you of the Beeches on the A361, the users of the nearby bowls and rugby club, ordinary householders would ever be heard to speak of their "neighbours" being persecuted. Much the opposite, actually. And no that area is not a colony of Mail readers or Nazis who fled in 1945. They're people, just people.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Dai Rear Dictionary definitions of xenophobia include: deep-rooted, irrational hatred towards foreigners (Oxford English Dictionary; OED), unreasonable fear or hatred of the unfamiliar (Webster's). I'm not going to be deflected from the main issue here, by your questions about the origins and ethnicities of Gypsies, Irish Travellers and other itinerant groups. The fact remains that they are all treated equally badly by many in the settled community.[/p][/quote]The word "phobia" means irrational fear. It does not mean "hatred", however much Humpty Dumpty might say it does. Conflating Celts with other races is exactly what it suits the left to do. You are pretty left I think. You'd not wish to dispute that anyone who speaks of "ethnicities" in their private life will not be of a liberal disposition. There is no such thing as the "settled community". I assume you live in a house or flat and do not demand the privilege of taking your children out of school and off to Stow Fair to make a filthy mess round the lanes where I used to cycle. You would therefore presumably say you are of that "community" from which it follows that you posit a community of interest with me. I equally do not wish to partially tarmac people's drives for an extortionate sum nor kill my cousin in an Oxford Hotel for dancing with the "wrong" woman. Are you seriously suggesting that you and I have any "community" of interests/views? The "settled community" is just another piece of left-speak. As to your second post, I'll tell you why it does not ring true. No one living in a radius described by you of the Beeches on the A361, the users of the nearby bowls and rugby club, ordinary householders would ever be heard to speak of their "neighbours" being persecuted. Much the opposite, actually. And no that area is not a colony of Mail readers or Nazis who fled in 1945. They're people, just people. Dai Rear
  • Score: 6

11:00am Mon 21 Apr 14

welshmen says...

brynglas wrote:
welshmen wrote:
A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....
When it comes to "truth" newspapers are not the best purveyors of it; they are in the commercial "news" market and not the "truth" market. "News" and "truth" often overlap, but not reliably so.
I have had them live very near me, year after year, I wouldn't wish the filth they made and left behind even on you, don't YOU understand no one only you and a couple of others even on here DON'T want them any where near Newport, invite your Gypsies to YOUR house or land, let them stay with you for free, OR are you a Gypsy....
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]welshmen[/bold] wrote: A vote by all the people of our Democratic City should take place once and for all, let the people decide who they want living in the City, include a cap on immigrants to, the Native City Council Tax payers should decide....not people who don't even know the difference between Roma Gypsies, Irish Travellers, Irish Tinkers, Gypsies, or just travellers, they have have never lived near to one of their sites, let the people VOTE....[/p][/quote]When it comes to "truth" newspapers are not the best purveyors of it; they are in the commercial "news" market and not the "truth" market. "News" and "truth" often overlap, but not reliably so.[/p][/quote]I have had them live very near me, year after year, I wouldn't wish the filth they made and left behind even on you, don't YOU understand no one only you and a couple of others even on here DON'T want them any where near Newport, invite your Gypsies to YOUR house or land, let them stay with you for free, OR are you a Gypsy.... welshmen
  • Score: 7

11:47am Mon 21 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes?
All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax!
All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.
I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc.
It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this.
They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this?
You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case.
It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives.
Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority.
So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes? All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax! All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.[/p][/quote]I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc. It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this. They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this? You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case. It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives. Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority. So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then? Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 5

12:16pm Mon 21 Apr 14

brynglas says...

Cymru Am Beth wrote:
brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes?
All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax!
All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.
I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc.
It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this.
They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this?
You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case.
It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives.
Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority.
So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?
"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it.
[quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes? All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax! All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.[/p][/quote]I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc. It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this. They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this? You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case. It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives. Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority. So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?[/p][/quote]"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. brynglas
  • Score: -4

12:38pm Mon 21 Apr 14

Dai Rear says...

brynglas wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes?
All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax!
All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.
I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc.
It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this.
They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this?
You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case.
It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives.
Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority.
So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?
"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it.
By the same token a proposition remains false even though you believe it to be true. I think your state is called "delusory". Equally you may be employed in the "equality industry" and have to believe it, much, presumably, as traffic wardens believe folks love them.
I think many find the statutory privileges enjoyed by the tinker and zigeuner to be offensive. I am sure you don't agree.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes? All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax! All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.[/p][/quote]I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc. It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this. They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this? You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case. It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives. Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority. So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?[/p][/quote]"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it.[/p][/quote]By the same token a proposition remains false even though you believe it to be true. I think your state is called "delusory". Equally you may be employed in the "equality industry" and have to believe it, much, presumably, as traffic wardens believe folks love them. I think many find the statutory privileges enjoyed by the tinker and zigeuner to be offensive. I am sure you don't agree. Dai Rear
  • Score: 2

12:48pm Mon 21 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes?
All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax!
All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.
I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc.
It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this.
They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this?
You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case.
It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives.
Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority.
So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?
"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it.
Res ipsa loquitur, my friend.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes? All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax! All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.[/p][/quote]I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc. It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this. They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this? You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case. It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives. Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority. So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?[/p][/quote]"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it.[/p][/quote]Res ipsa loquitur, my friend. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 0

12:59pm Mon 21 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Cymru Am Beth wrote:
brynglas wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes?
All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax!
All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.
I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc.
It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this.
They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this?
You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case.
It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives.
Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority.
So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?
"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it.
Res ipsa loquitur, my friend.
It is not a proposition, it is a fact.
Seeing is believing, or are you going to argue that what is seen is misinterpreted?
So, travellers don't leave heaps of rubbish behind when they leave sites, declare all their income from working and contribute much to society?
Sorry, but it is a plain and simple fact that this is not the case.
You can argue all you like on this, but you are not going to change the MAJORITY of peoples minds.
[quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth Where's the evidence they don't pay taxes? All Gypsies and Travellers living on a local authority or privately owned sites pay council tax, rent, gas, electricity, and all other charges measured in the same way as other homes. Those living on "unauthorised" camps don't pay council tax - when basic services, such as a toilet or waste disposal are provided and the Gypsies and Travellers make payment for this service direct to the local authority (fact - check it out). If there aren't enough "authorised" camps they can't be blamed for not paying council tax! All residents within the UK pay tax on their purchases, petrol and road tax as do Gypsies and Travellers.[/p][/quote]I think that you will find that they are unable to avoid taxes on petrol etc. It is undeclared income that is the main problem and I notice that you have made no mention of this. They carry bundles of cash on them, do you think that they have declared tax on this? You are living in 'la la land' if you believe this to be the case. It is nothing to do with prejudice it is common knowledge that this is how so-called gypsies (although most by definition are irish Tinkers) live their lives. Judging by most of the commentators on here you seem to make up the significant minority. So you think that you are right and the overwhelming majority are wrong then?[/p][/quote]"argumentum ad populum" is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it.[/p][/quote]Res ipsa loquitur, my friend.[/p][/quote]It is not a proposition, it is a fact. Seeing is believing, or are you going to argue that what is seen is misinterpreted? So, travellers don't leave heaps of rubbish behind when they leave sites, declare all their income from working and contribute much to society? Sorry, but it is a plain and simple fact that this is not the case. You can argue all you like on this, but you are not going to change the MAJORITY of peoples minds. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 3

2:29pm Mon 21 Apr 14

newporteast says...

Ringland did vote in LABOUR COUNCILLORS, Mp , and a Welsh Assembly member, they brought it on themselves and they only got themselves to blame.
Ringland did vote in LABOUR COUNCILLORS, Mp , and a Welsh Assembly member, they brought it on themselves and they only got themselves to blame. newporteast
  • Score: 1

2:49pm Mon 21 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...
@Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven... brynglas
  • Score: -9

9:35am Tue 22 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...
Just go down to a site and witness the mess left behind and ask people who have had jobs done (badly) and are then threatened when they refuse to pay up for substandard work.
That is verifiability and it can be proven.
Also, there are many instances of illegality, some very prominent cases, resulting in the local taxpayers having to foot the legal bill.
What further evidence do you require to accept this FACT?
You believe that all these instances have been manufactured then do you
This may be acceptable in your world to protect the rights of a minority at considerable expense to the majority.
Do I need to reiterate that your views are not credible to most commentators on this article?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...[/p][/quote]Just go down to a site and witness the mess left behind and ask people who have had jobs done (badly) and are then threatened when they refuse to pay up for substandard work. That is verifiability and it can be proven. Also, there are many instances of illegality, some very prominent cases, resulting in the local taxpayers having to foot the legal bill. What further evidence do you require to accept this FACT? You believe that all these instances have been manufactured then do you This may be acceptable in your world to protect the rights of a minority at considerable expense to the majority. Do I need to reiterate that your views are not credible to most commentators on this article? Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 7

10:54am Tue 22 Apr 14

Dai Rear says...

Cymru Am Beth wrote:
brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...
Just go down to a site and witness the mess left behind and ask people who have had jobs done (badly) and are then threatened when they refuse to pay up for substandard work.
That is verifiability and it can be proven.
Also, there are many instances of illegality, some very prominent cases, resulting in the local taxpayers having to foot the legal bill.
What further evidence do you require to accept this FACT?
You believe that all these instances have been manufactured then do you
This may be acceptable in your world to protect the rights of a minority at considerable expense to the majority.
Do I need to reiterate that your views are not credible to most commentators on this article?
In fairness brynglas is just being Devil's Advocate. He can read and write so he doesn't live in La La Land, even though he pretends to.
[quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...[/p][/quote]Just go down to a site and witness the mess left behind and ask people who have had jobs done (badly) and are then threatened when they refuse to pay up for substandard work. That is verifiability and it can be proven. Also, there are many instances of illegality, some very prominent cases, resulting in the local taxpayers having to foot the legal bill. What further evidence do you require to accept this FACT? You believe that all these instances have been manufactured then do you This may be acceptable in your world to protect the rights of a minority at considerable expense to the majority. Do I need to reiterate that your views are not credible to most commentators on this article?[/p][/quote]In fairness brynglas is just being Devil's Advocate. He can read and write so he doesn't live in La La Land, even though he pretends to. Dai Rear
  • Score: 0

11:06am Tue 22 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

Dai Rear wrote:
Cymru Am Beth wrote:
brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...
Just go down to a site and witness the mess left behind and ask people who have had jobs done (badly) and are then threatened when they refuse to pay up for substandard work.
That is verifiability and it can be proven.
Also, there are many instances of illegality, some very prominent cases, resulting in the local taxpayers having to foot the legal bill.
What further evidence do you require to accept this FACT?
You believe that all these instances have been manufactured then do you
This may be acceptable in your world to protect the rights of a minority at considerable expense to the majority.
Do I need to reiterate that your views are not credible to most commentators on this article?
In fairness brynglas is just being Devil's Advocate. He can read and write so he doesn't live in La La Land, even though he pretends to.
You may be right there.
[quote][p][bold]Dai Rear[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Cymru Am Beth[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...[/p][/quote]Just go down to a site and witness the mess left behind and ask people who have had jobs done (badly) and are then threatened when they refuse to pay up for substandard work. That is verifiability and it can be proven. Also, there are many instances of illegality, some very prominent cases, resulting in the local taxpayers having to foot the legal bill. What further evidence do you require to accept this FACT? You believe that all these instances have been manufactured then do you This may be acceptable in your world to protect the rights of a minority at considerable expense to the majority. Do I need to reiterate that your views are not credible to most commentators on this article?[/p][/quote]In fairness brynglas is just being Devil's Advocate. He can read and write so he doesn't live in La La Land, even though he pretends to.[/p][/quote]You may be right there. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 2

5:32pm Tue 22 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth
No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated:
Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture.
@Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated: Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture. brynglas
  • Score: -7

5:37pm Tue 22 Apr 14

brynglas says...

Here's what I think is needed:

We need new legislation which would guarantee proper protection for the nomadic lifestyle of Travellers whilst ensuring that the lifestyle of the settled population is equally protected. This legislation would guarantee limited security of occupation on various forms of public land - limited in terms of number of caravans, length of stay, and factors such as road safety. Where commons or other areas of open land are traditional or customary stopping places for Travellers, there should be a right of residence for up to 28 days irrespective of whether Complying Authority status applied. Where such sites are traditional wintering places, there should be a right of residence between 1st October and 31st March, and no right of residence between 1st April and 30th September.
The statutory duty of localCouncils to provide rubbish collection services to local authority Travellers' sites in their area should be extended to cover all encampments.
The scope of existing legislation against racial discrimination should be widened to specifically include discrimination against Travellers, irrespective of ethnic origin.
Here's what I think is needed: We need new legislation which would guarantee proper protection for the nomadic lifestyle of Travellers whilst ensuring that the lifestyle of the settled population is equally protected. This legislation would guarantee limited security of occupation on various forms of public land - limited in terms of number of caravans, length of stay, and factors such as road safety. Where commons or other areas of open land are traditional or customary stopping places for Travellers, there should be a right of residence for up to 28 days irrespective of whether Complying Authority status applied. Where such sites are traditional wintering places, there should be a right of residence between 1st October and 31st March, and no right of residence between 1st April and 30th September. The statutory duty of localCouncils to provide rubbish collection services to local authority Travellers' sites in their area should be extended to cover all encampments. The scope of existing legislation against racial discrimination should be widened to specifically include discrimination against Travellers, irrespective of ethnic origin. brynglas
  • Score: -7

9:25am Wed 23 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
@Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth
No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated:
Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture.
They have a right to preserve their lifestyles and culture, but not at the expense of others.
They have a legal obligation to abide by our laws and behave in a manner that is acceptable to society.
Go to a transient site and see how disadvantaged they are, with their new Range Rovers etc, you are having a laugh.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated: Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture.[/p][/quote]They have a right to preserve their lifestyles and culture, but not at the expense of others. They have a legal obligation to abide by our laws and behave in a manner that is acceptable to society. Go to a transient site and see how disadvantaged they are, with their new Range Rovers etc, you are having a laugh. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 8

9:27am Wed 23 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
Here's what I think is needed:

We need new legislation which would guarantee proper protection for the nomadic lifestyle of Travellers whilst ensuring that the lifestyle of the settled population is equally protected. This legislation would guarantee limited security of occupation on various forms of public land - limited in terms of number of caravans, length of stay, and factors such as road safety. Where commons or other areas of open land are traditional or customary stopping places for Travellers, there should be a right of residence for up to 28 days irrespective of whether Complying Authority status applied. Where such sites are traditional wintering places, there should be a right of residence between 1st October and 31st March, and no right of residence between 1st April and 30th September.
The statutory duty of localCouncils to provide rubbish collection services to local authority Travellers' sites in their area should be extended to cover all encampments.
The scope of existing legislation against racial discrimination should be widened to specifically include discrimination against Travellers, irrespective of ethnic origin.
And do you think that the travellers would have any intention of complying with your rules?
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: Here's what I think is needed: We need new legislation which would guarantee proper protection for the nomadic lifestyle of Travellers whilst ensuring that the lifestyle of the settled population is equally protected. This legislation would guarantee limited security of occupation on various forms of public land - limited in terms of number of caravans, length of stay, and factors such as road safety. Where commons or other areas of open land are traditional or customary stopping places for Travellers, there should be a right of residence for up to 28 days irrespective of whether Complying Authority status applied. Where such sites are traditional wintering places, there should be a right of residence between 1st October and 31st March, and no right of residence between 1st April and 30th September. The statutory duty of localCouncils to provide rubbish collection services to local authority Travellers' sites in their area should be extended to cover all encampments. The scope of existing legislation against racial discrimination should be widened to specifically include discrimination against Travellers, irrespective of ethnic origin.[/p][/quote]And do you think that the travellers would have any intention of complying with your rules? Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 8

5:59pm Wed 23 Apr 14

cymruamblyth says...

brynglas wrote:
@Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...
The notion of being taught how to interpret Gypsy lifestyle by some pedant Loser who believes he knows best and we don't is both repugnant and grotesque.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Cymru Am Beth The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability - ie whether it can be proven...[/p][/quote]The notion of being taught how to interpret Gypsy lifestyle by some pedant Loser who believes he knows best and we don't is both repugnant and grotesque. cymruamblyth
  • Score: 2

6:02pm Wed 23 Apr 14

cymruamblyth says...

brynglas wrote:
@Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth
No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated:
Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture.
Why? Because some article posted on some random Billy no mates Facebook page told you so.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated: Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture.[/p][/quote]Why? Because some article posted on some random Billy no mates Facebook page told you so. cymruamblyth
  • Score: 3

10:57pm Wed 23 Apr 14

rover100rich says...

i think that when you have to resort to personal insults it means that you have lost the argument ,although irish travellers have as brynglas said a long history as some of the horse fairs here have been going for 800 years , i think although i have no proof that many of todays travellers are descended from irish people who went on the road during famine times making their culture and history not as old as you think, travellers here or statics as i call them as they dont travel now are mostly settled in purpose built traveller housing or permanent sites on the edge of all the towns , so they have to keep the places a little tidy or the council are on their case , also most seem quite poor , no range rovers here as i have ever seen , your case either way will soon be settled when your crowd moves on from ringland , im sure someone can take pictures of the mess or otherwise left behind
i think that when you have to resort to personal insults it means that you have lost the argument ,although irish travellers have as brynglas said a long history as some of the horse fairs here have been going for 800 years , i think although i have no proof that many of todays travellers are descended from irish people who went on the road during famine times making their culture and history not as old as you think, travellers here or statics as i call them as they dont travel now are mostly settled in purpose built traveller housing or permanent sites on the edge of all the towns , so they have to keep the places a little tidy or the council are on their case , also most seem quite poor , no range rovers here as i have ever seen , your case either way will soon be settled when your crowd moves on from ringland , im sure someone can take pictures of the mess or otherwise left behind rover100rich
  • Score: 0

1:47pm Thu 24 Apr 14

john the jag says...

rover100rich wrote:
i think that when you have to resort to personal insults it means that you have lost the argument ,although irish travellers have as brynglas said a long history as some of the horse fairs here have been going for 800 years , i think although i have no proof that many of todays travellers are descended from irish people who went on the road during famine times making their culture and history not as old as you think, travellers here or statics as i call them as they dont travel now are mostly settled in purpose built traveller housing or permanent sites on the edge of all the towns , so they have to keep the places a little tidy or the council are on their case , also most seem quite poor , no range rovers here as i have ever seen , your case either way will soon be settled when your crowd moves on from ringland , im sure someone can take pictures of the mess or otherwise left behind
and there is plenty of mess from black bags of rubbish, empty takeaway boxes, clothes, building rubble and endless amounts of toilet tissue and human waste and the list goes on, all of which has to be cleaned up by Newport City Council at the expense of Newport Council Tax payers.
[quote][p][bold]rover100rich[/bold] wrote: i think that when you have to resort to personal insults it means that you have lost the argument ,although irish travellers have as brynglas said a long history as some of the horse fairs here have been going for 800 years , i think although i have no proof that many of todays travellers are descended from irish people who went on the road during famine times making their culture and history not as old as you think, travellers here or statics as i call them as they dont travel now are mostly settled in purpose built traveller housing or permanent sites on the edge of all the towns , so they have to keep the places a little tidy or the council are on their case , also most seem quite poor , no range rovers here as i have ever seen , your case either way will soon be settled when your crowd moves on from ringland , im sure someone can take pictures of the mess or otherwise left behind[/p][/quote]and there is plenty of mess from black bags of rubbish, empty takeaway boxes, clothes, building rubble and endless amounts of toilet tissue and human waste and the list goes on, all of which has to be cleaned up by Newport City Council at the expense of Newport Council Tax payers. john the jag
  • Score: 4

5:01pm Thu 24 Apr 14

Llanmartinangel says...

brynglas wrote:
@Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth
No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated:
Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture.
'These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures'

I find it difficult to believe that anyone playing with a full deck could ever say that without their tongue firmly in their cheek. So all the blight and mess that has been observed and evidenced, or quoted on here is 'valuable' and 'cultured'? I'd call matron if I were you.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Dai Reader @Cymru am Beth No I'm not playing devil's advocate - I genuinely believe what I've stated: Gypsies and other Travellers are sections of society which are greatly disadvantaged and discriminated against. These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures, and have a right to preserve these. Travellers have equal rights and community obligations as citizens, and we (the settled community) should not impose unwanted conformity to the values and lifestyle of our dominant culture.[/p][/quote]'These travelling people have ancient, valuable and valid lifestyles and cultures' I find it difficult to believe that anyone playing with a full deck could ever say that without their tongue firmly in their cheek. So all the blight and mess that has been observed and evidenced, or quoted on here is 'valuable' and 'cultured'? I'd call matron if I were you. Llanmartinangel
  • Score: 2

9:04pm Thu 24 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@Llanmartinangel On the contrary, what is pathological is the view that these people are not valuable or valued.

There was a certain ideological movement in the mid-20th century which also considered the Gypsy Traveller to have no place in a civilized society - they had a word they used to categorise them - "Untermenschen" - "sub-human".

Do any of you anti-gypsy commentators on here agree with that view?
@Llanmartinangel On the contrary, what is pathological is the view that these people are not valuable or valued. There was a certain ideological movement in the mid-20th century which also considered the Gypsy Traveller to have no place in a civilized society - they had a word they used to categorise them - "Untermenschen" - "sub-human". Do any of you anti-gypsy commentators on here agree with that view? brynglas
  • Score: 0

11:46am Fri 25 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
@Llanmartinangel On the contrary, what is pathological is the view that these people are not valuable or valued.

There was a certain ideological movement in the mid-20th century which also considered the Gypsy Traveller to have no place in a civilized society - they had a word they used to categorise them - "Untermenschen" - "sub-human".

Do any of you anti-gypsy commentators on here agree with that view?
It is not a case of being anti.
A lot of these travellers are not what would be classed as gypsies anyway.
The old gypsy caravans that were kept in immaculate condition and the proud Romany tradition that went with that has long gone.
The irish certainly don't want them in their country as a number of them are criminal underclass and undesirable.
If they abided by society's rules and didn't impact on other peoples lives in a negative way, then I am sure that they would be "welcomed with open arms'.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Llanmartinangel On the contrary, what is pathological is the view that these people are not valuable or valued. There was a certain ideological movement in the mid-20th century which also considered the Gypsy Traveller to have no place in a civilized society - they had a word they used to categorise them - "Untermenschen" - "sub-human". Do any of you anti-gypsy commentators on here agree with that view?[/p][/quote]It is not a case of being anti. A lot of these travellers are not what would be classed as gypsies anyway. The old gypsy caravans that were kept in immaculate condition and the proud Romany tradition that went with that has long gone. The irish certainly don't want them in their country as a number of them are criminal underclass and undesirable. If they abided by society's rules and didn't impact on other peoples lives in a negative way, then I am sure that they would be "welcomed with open arms'. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: -1

2:25pm Fri 25 Apr 14

ollie72 says...

brynglas wrote:
@Llanmartinangel On the contrary, what is pathological is the view that these people are not valuable or valued.

There was a certain ideological movement in the mid-20th century which also considered the Gypsy Traveller to have no place in a civilized society - they had a word they used to categorise them - "Untermenschen" - "sub-human".

Do any of you anti-gypsy commentators on here agree with that view?
Actually, I will argue your point there.

The treatment of Gypsies in Nazi Germany was due the hatred of all non aryan peoples by one dreadful, evil person. It was not based on anything but his twisted view of the world.

The arguments that people are proposing here are based on what they have actually witnessed, and even then they are not advocating any kind of negative behaviour towards the travellers - just asking that they take their part in society, paying in as well as taking out.

Unfortunately, by invoking the "Nazi" argument, you have lost all credibility
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @Llanmartinangel On the contrary, what is pathological is the view that these people are not valuable or valued. There was a certain ideological movement in the mid-20th century which also considered the Gypsy Traveller to have no place in a civilized society - they had a word they used to categorise them - "Untermenschen" - "sub-human". Do any of you anti-gypsy commentators on here agree with that view?[/p][/quote]Actually, I will argue your point there. The treatment of Gypsies in Nazi Germany was due the hatred of all non aryan peoples by one dreadful, evil person. It was not based on anything but his twisted view of the world. The arguments that people are proposing here are based on what they have actually witnessed, and even then they are not advocating any kind of negative behaviour towards the travellers - just asking that they take their part in society, paying in as well as taking out. Unfortunately, by invoking the "Nazi" argument, you have lost all credibility ollie72
  • Score: 1

9:07pm Sat 26 Apr 14

brynglas says...

@ollie72 I fully accept that your view is as you've stated in your comment. I'm not accusing anyone in the SWA comments section of holding such extremist views - I merely asked the question, as there are certainly people operating in Gwent who hold far-right and openly racist beliefs. I was wondering IF any contributors to this forum did hold such views, and whether they would admit it.

@Cymru am Beth You wrote "underclass and undesirable". Could you explain exactly what you mean by those terms?
@ollie72 I fully accept that your view is as you've stated in your comment. I'm not accusing anyone in the SWA comments section of holding such extremist views - I merely asked the question, as there are certainly people operating in Gwent who hold far-right and openly racist beliefs. I was wondering IF any contributors to this forum did hold such views, and whether they would admit it. @Cymru am Beth You wrote "underclass and undesirable". Could you explain exactly what you mean by those terms? brynglas
  • Score: 0

10:29am Tue 29 Apr 14

Cymru Am Beth says...

brynglas wrote:
@ollie72 I fully accept that your view is as you've stated in your comment. I'm not accusing anyone in the SWA comments section of holding such extremist views - I merely asked the question, as there are certainly people operating in Gwent who hold far-right and openly racist beliefs. I was wondering IF any contributors to this forum did hold such views, and whether they would admit it.

@Cymru am Beth You wrote "underclass and undesirable". Could you explain exactly what you mean by those terms?
There are many definitions of underclass, but it is thought to include certain identifying characteristics such as joblessness, crime, violence, school dropout rates etc.
Undesirable, meaning of includes unwelcome, unacceptable, unwanted, unwished-for etc etc.
It is not a case of being racist either.
This is used by left-wing commentators to stifle the discussion.
I am merely pointing out what is the general view as experienced by ordinary people.
You clearly don't believe that this is the case and you are entitled to your opinion.
[quote][p][bold]brynglas[/bold] wrote: @ollie72 I fully accept that your view is as you've stated in your comment. I'm not accusing anyone in the SWA comments section of holding such extremist views - I merely asked the question, as there are certainly people operating in Gwent who hold far-right and openly racist beliefs. I was wondering IF any contributors to this forum did hold such views, and whether they would admit it. @Cymru am Beth You wrote "underclass and undesirable". Could you explain exactly what you mean by those terms?[/p][/quote]There are many definitions of underclass, but it is thought to include certain identifying characteristics such as joblessness, crime, violence, school dropout rates etc. Undesirable, meaning of includes unwelcome, unacceptable, unwanted, unwished-for etc etc. It is not a case of being racist either. This is used by left-wing commentators to stifle the discussion. I am merely pointing out what is the general view as experienced by ordinary people. You clearly don't believe that this is the case and you are entitled to your opinion. Cymru Am Beth
  • Score: 0

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