Wales 12 Argentina 26 (From South Wales Argus)

Very poor all round performance. Toby tried hard but made a few mistakes but was probably the best Welsh player out there today. On looking back at the game i feel Howley has failed to put out a team with belief they could win. Wales without Warren Gatland are a ship without a rudder. There is one chance to turn it round this coming Friday but lose that one and it will be a massive hill to climb to stay number 5 in the world rankings and that will cause serious problems for the next World Cup.

With grass roots rugby and 'regional' rugby in tatters, what do we expect?

Dai the Milk wrote:
With grass roots rugby and 'regional' rugby in tatters, what do we expect?

Precisely.

Is there any coincidence in the fact that the Pumas have played this year at a consistently high level whilst the Welsh players for their 'regions' have played at a consistently low level.....and usually lost in the process. The Pumas arrive battle-hardened against the best in the world while we play the Zebre and Connaught.....and all 4 clubs already out of the Heineken Cup. Hmmmmm. A week in Poland in ice chambers is no substitute for regular, competitive, high class rugby. Also, the Irish have mature regional rugby. We have 4 struggling clubs masquerading as regions. The Irish on the other hand have 3 very strong set-ups with large crowds and a thriving game. Will we ever learn? How much longer can this Welsh hotch-potch rubbish continue to be served? NZ, OZ, Ireland, Scotland and SA all have proper regions. France and England have club rugby. There are no half-way houses anywhere else in the world.

Well said,Dai..

Chickens home roost

Wales were rubbish next week please select Phillips @ 9 and Hook @ 10

In fairness the was the first game together for the squad while the pumas were comming off the back of a good tournament and had the edge as a result. This is the longest the pumas had ever spent together. If Wales had played them after the Australian tour it would have been different. Having said that it was a very flat performance not helped by shunning Philips for the first half and persevering with priestland rather than the in form Bigger. Wales can only improve after that surely. The regional argument is a complex one and the existing regions are facing difficult times but despite this, two of them are still doing well. Remember any improvement or change to the existing set up would cost big money that isn't around. I also believe that, if you add up all attendances in all levels of rugby in Wales in any given week it would be less than the capacity of the stadium. Simply put there isn't the support for club or regional rugby in Wales. It has always been about the national identity for most.

CRYotherapy in Poland,CRYing therapy and CRYogenics in Cardiff what a waste of time and money,money that could be put to much better use considering the state of the game in Wales in general.
A totally inept performance(Toby apart) by a side that acted with the arrogance of world champions in waiting but never left the starting grid .
Lacking in structure,ideas, and leadership it was pathetic.Warburton for Lions captain is laughable.Without Danny in the side to do all the hard graft he's just another bog standard 7 who reaps all the glory and Wynn Jones? well nuff said.

Not making too many excuses, Wales were poor. But we are flogging our players to death. Toby had a good game but is knackered. In world cup year he played all winter before it, then trained all summer, then the world cup and took 2 weeks off before playing again for the region. The WRU are mindlessly flogging the players for profit because they have no other income stream outside the international set up. If they could get the tiers below that right then there would be less financial pressure. What a mess! -
Home grown Welsh coaches? The cupboard is bare. Howley is nowhere near the calibre required.

The bubble of temporary international success has burst. It was a house built on sand. Sort the 'regions' out. Either form regions or give it entirely to the four clubs. At the moment this mongrel creation is attracting no support, no income, no top flight players and no success. Change it and we just might get sustainable, consistent top class rugby here. Then the knock on effect will be a national side that can compete against the best on a regular basis.

Toby played well. Wyn-jones was a disgrace, Jamie Roberts was poor and priestland needs to take a seat for a few weeks. Let hook play 10. I have no faith in howley. A great player in his day but yet another coach in the welsh setup with no pedigree. Please come back warren.

Dai the Milk wrote:
The bubble of temporary international success has burst. It was a house built on sand. Sort the 'regions' out. Either form regions or give it entirely to the four clubs. At the moment this mongrel creation is attracting no support, no income, no top flight players and no success. Change it and we just might get sustainable, consistent top class rugby here. Then the knock on effect will be a national side that can compete against the best on a regular basis.

This is starting to freak me out now... I'm finding myself agreeing with you more than I don't.

The People's Republic of Newp wrote:

Dai the Milk wrote:
The bubble of temporary international success has burst. It was a house built on sand. Sort the 'regions' out. Either form regions or give it entirely to the four clubs. At the moment this mongrel creation is attracting no support, no income, no top flight players and no success. Change it and we just might get sustainable, consistent top class rugby here. Then the knock on effect will be a national side that can compete against the best on a regular basis.

This is starting to freak me out now... I'm finding myself agreeing with you more than I don't.

You know you want to join me.

Dai the Milk wrote:
The bubble of temporary international success has burst. It was a house built on sand. Sort the 'regions' out. Either form regions or give it entirely to the four clubs. At the moment this mongrel creation is attracting no support, no income, no top flight players and no success. Change it and we just might get sustainable, consistent top class rugby here. Then the knock on effect will be a national side that can compete against the best on a regular basis.

When the Gwent Dragons were formed they sold 17 season tickets before it was hastily changed to keep the Newport supporters onboard. Apart from the same couple of names I don't see any real support for an alternative today either. There is too much invested in the current system to abandon it. The very idea that there is enough cash to rip it all up, start again, build even more new stadiums, buy in super expensive players on the basis that there just might be some support for it is just nonsense isn't it? Think about it. Money is the problem here.

Euwan Usami wrote:

Dai the Milk wrote:
The bubble of temporary international success has burst. It was a house built on sand. Sort the 'regions' out. Either form regions or give it entirely to the four clubs. At the moment this mongrel creation is attracting no support, no income, no top flight players and no success. Change it and we just might get sustainable, consistent top class rugby here. Then the knock on effect will be a national side that can compete against the best on a regular basis.

When the Gwent Dragons were formed they sold 17 season tickets before it was hastily changed to keep the Newport supporters onboard. Apart from the same couple of names I don't see any real support for an alternative today either. There is too much invested in the current system to abandon it. The very idea that there is enough cash to rip it all up, start again, build even more new stadiums, buy in super expensive players on the basis that there just might be some support for it is just nonsense isn't it? Think about it. Money is the problem here.

Which is why the only way forward is to unapologetically restore the four clubs to which all players of note throughout the the history of Welsh rugby were drawn: Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli and Swansea. What disgusts me the most is we hear time and time again there is no money for the investment to make these outfits viable. Nonsense. All funding from the pro game down should support operational costs and player development only, but that's too controversial a move for the self-interested club committee men that run the WRU to contemplate. What pains me is a honest conversation about financial priorities would probably reveal sufficient funding is in place to sustain the Gang of 6 model which would simultaneously delivered the requisite reduction in top flight clubs, fomented the skill intensity so desperately needed AND retained the very best - localism, parochialism, identity and loyalty - about Welsh rugby. I refuse to believe its too late to bring this conversation and change about. We in Wales abhor elites, and that;s something I'm personally proud of - but its a ontological and existential position that has wrecked Welsh rugby.

Good one - People's Republic. Stand for election to the WRU

Your assertion that "all players of note throughout the history of welsh rugby" were drawn to only Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport, is simply laughable. I simply don't have time to run through those players who have played for Wales and Lions from other clubs on here. If you would prefer those clubs with the greatest immediate population to represent welsh rugby, then that would at least be a genuine debate.

The People's Republic of Newp wrote:

Euwan Usami wrote:

Dai the Milk wrote:
The bubble of temporary international success has burst. It was a house built on sand. Sort the 'regions' out. Either form regions or give it entirely to the four clubs. At the moment this mongrel creation is attracting no support, no income, no top flight players and no success. Change it and we just might get sustainable, consistent top class rugby here. Then the knock on effect will be a national side that can compete against the best on a regular basis.

When the Gwent Dragons were formed they sold 17 season tickets before it was hastily changed to keep the Newport supporters onboard. Apart from the same couple of names I don't see any real support for an alternative today either. There is too much invested in the current system to abandon it. The very idea that there is enough cash to rip it all up, start again, build even more new stadiums, buy in super expensive players on the basis that there just might be some support for it is just nonsense isn't it? Think about it. Money is the problem here.

Which is why the only way forward is to unapologetically restore the four clubs to which all players of note throughout the the history of Welsh rugby were drawn: Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli and Swansea. What disgusts me the most is we hear time and time again there is no money for the investment to make these outfits viable. Nonsense. All funding from the pro game down should support operational costs and player development only, but that's too controversial a move for the self-interested club committee men that run the WRU to contemplate. What pains me is a honest conversation about financial priorities would probably reveal sufficient funding is in place to sustain the Gang of 6 model which would simultaneously delivered the requisite reduction in top flight clubs, fomented the skill intensity so desperately needed AND retained the very best - localism, parochialism, identity and loyalty - about Welsh rugby. I refuse to believe its too late to bring this conversation and change about. We in Wales abhor elites, and that;s something I'm personally proud of - but its a ontological and existential position that has wrecked Welsh rugby.

Give you one tip; if you want to appear knowledgeable on a subject, try to avoid words like "Probably" When forming the argument. Also, using longer words than necessary can come off like trying to dress up cr@p in ribbons. It's still cr@p at the end if the day.

Give you one tip; if you want to appear knowledgeable on a subject, try to avoid words like "Probably" When forming the argument. Also, using longer words than necessary can come off like trying to dress up cr@p in ribbons. It's still cr@p at the end if the day.

Euwan Usami wrote:
Give you one tip; if you want to appear knowledgeable on a subject, try to avoid words like "Probably" When forming the argument. Also, using longer words than necessary can come off like trying to dress up cr@p in ribbons. It's still cr@p at the end if the day.

Tad defensive, n'est pas? I'll take that as evidence of the relative strength of my analysis. Unlike you I'm not so arrogant as to presume I have all the answers: pays to be more guarded and sceptical as I, for one, don't pretend to have all the answers. As for my choice of language, I make no apologies whatsover: the two terms you presumably refer to are wholly appropriate. An education - providing it is not used to belittle - is nothing to be ashamed of.

CM1 wrote:
Your assertion that "all players of note throughout the history of welsh rugby" were drawn to only Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport, is simply laughable. I simply don't have time to run through those players who have played for Wales and Lions from other clubs on here. If you would prefer those clubs with the greatest immediate population to represent welsh rugby, then that would at least be a genuine debate.

Borne out by history I'm afraid, my friend. Admittedly, there have been aberrations, and many teams have fleetingly reached the summit, Neath, Pooler and even Treorchy among them, but in terms of sustained accomplishment since the formation of the Union? No contest.

The People's Republic of Newp wrote:

Euwan Usami wrote:
Give you one tip; if you want to appear knowledgeable on a subject, try to avoid words like "Probably" When forming the argument. Also, using longer words than necessary can come off like trying to dress up cr@p in ribbons. It's still cr@p at the end if the day.

Tad defensive, n'est pas? I'll take that as evidence of the relative strength of my analysis. Unlike you I'm not so arrogant as to presume I have all the answers: pays to be more guarded and sceptical as I, for one, don't pretend to have all the answers. As for my choice of language, I make no apologies whatsover: the two terms you presumably refer to are wholly appropriate. An education - providing it is not used to belittle - is nothing to be ashamed of.

There's a difference between educated and pompous. l, like most, have the ability make a point succinctly. This is obviously beyond you. Your ignorance is irritating but it's made worse by your pomposity. Fear not though Mon ami, I will continue to remind you how ridiculous you are being in order to save your blushes. I am all heart I know. ;)

Euwan Usami wrote:

The People's Republic of Newp wrote:

Euwan Usami wrote:
Give you one tip; if you want to appear knowledgeable on a subject, try to avoid words like "Probably" When forming the argument. Also, using longer words than necessary can come off like trying to dress up cr@p in ribbons. It's still cr@p at the end if the day.

Tad defensive, n'est pas? I'll take that as evidence of the relative strength of my analysis. Unlike you I'm not so arrogant as to presume I have all the answers: pays to be more guarded and sceptical as I, for one, don't pretend to have all the answers. As for my choice of language, I make no apologies whatsover: the two terms you presumably refer to are wholly appropriate. An education - providing it is not used to belittle - is nothing to be ashamed of.

There's a difference between educated and pompous. l, like most, have the ability make a point succinctly. This is obviously beyond you. Your ignorance is irritating but it's made worse by your pomposity. Fear not though Mon ami, I will continue to remind you how ridiculous you are being in order to save your blushes. I am all heart I know. ;)

How very kind.

I'd like to say your resorting to insults masks the frailty of your arguments, but...

Unfortunately for Newport, the club has rarely been at the pinnacle of welsh rugby. A top four, five or six team for sustained periods but rarely at the very top; not in my lifetime anyway. I have been watching rugby since the early 80s, having been born the decade before and can hardly recall Newport winning anything of note. You must be getting on, as they say; no offence! The strange fact about those aberations, as you call them, is that they lasted for decades, which does not really fit the definition. Someone else seems to have noted your overt sense of superiority!

With the exception of the teams I mentioned, can you honestly point to a single outfit that sat at the top of the tree for decades? You're absolutely right about the mid '80s on, Newport were for the most part an afterthought, but what sticks in my craw was how everything Brown secured in the run-up to 2003 was sacrificed. Recall Moffett coming up with the magic 8,000 break-even attendance figure? We were getting that and often surpassing it: NGD, Ebbw, Pooler and every other Gwent club since '95 have never come close.

For the record, I could have lived with proper regional rugby. But you can't consider what's best for 'Gwent' in isolation, without taking account of the status afforded Cardiff and Llanelli...

As for my sense of superiority, its not for me to take task with what you find, and I'll have to accept what you say. Having said that, there's a number on here - myself included - who are pretty emphatic in expressing a point. But I do my best to resist the urge to personalise things.

I agree Peoples Republic

I would specifically add Bridgend and Pontypridd to your list but international players came from a wide range of sides in those days, including the likes of Souht Wales Police.

Actually agree with the majority of your points, especially regarding Cardiff and Llanelli, exept that I have been in crowds approaching that number at Pontypool when we went on cup runs in the 90s, and bear in mind that was when the club was in the second tier. Unfortunately, those supporters are long gone from he game and most likely never to return, especially now that the longer the club languishes in the dead leagues. However, these supporters have been lost to the sport, not just Pontypool.

On the subject of superiority, you sometimes have a tedency to come across as if there has only ever been one club in Gwent and that other supporters don't matter! I am just lucky to have been in crowds of 10k+ supporting my team in local derby matches that used to matter. Never again unfortunately.

CM1 wrote:
I would specifically add Bridgend and Pontypridd to your list but international players came from a wide range of sides in those days, including the likes of Souht Wales Police.

Actually agree with the majority of your points, especially regarding Cardiff and Llanelli, exept that I have been in crowds approaching that number at Pontypool when we went on cup runs in the 90s, and bear in mind that was when the club was in the second tier. Unfortunately, those supporters are long gone from he game and most likely never to return, especially now that the longer the club languishes in the dead leagues. However, these supporters have been lost to the sport, not just Pontypool.

On the subject of superiority, you sometimes have a tedency to come across as if there has only ever been one club in Gwent and that other supporters don't matter! I am just lucky to have been in crowds of 10k+ supporting my team in local derby matches that used to matter. Never again unfortunately.

In fairness, I can exactly where you're coming from. 'We' in Newp - well, most of whom to who I speak, current and former season ticket holders alike - take umbrudge at the preferential treatment of Cardiff and Llanelli, so I can fully understand why supporters of Pooler and the like see our 'griping' as just that, especially as 'we' have a team with Newport in the title playing in our home. Its just I see the whole thing for the hotch-potch it is, neither meat nor fish, an embarrassing compromise that suits no-one. I've never been a fan of regional rugby - we should have built on and reinforced traditional loyalties rather than constructing artificial confections - but like I've said, I could have adjusted had it been equally applied and represented right the way across the piece, a proper wholesale departure from clubs. What we've instead got is one unholy mess.

Sadly I also think you're right about the big crowds. Too much damage done. Moffett, Pickering, Lewis, the lot of them, should be ashamed.

Yep, cannot disagree with any of that! Llanelli and Cardiff have a great deal to answer for!! It used to make me very angry but, like many others, I have moved on. Watched recording of Atlanta v Dallas when the Wales game was on last week; superior skills and more exciting sport!