It always turns out badly (From South Wales Argus)

MR DUDLEY says...
2:48pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Going slightly off subject, when will the government see that charity should begin at home? We are no longer Great Britain, we quite simply can not afford to give billion of pounds to any country that holds out it's hands.This country has child poverty how very embarrassing is that?

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Mervyn James says...
3:31pm Fri 18 Jan 13

There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.

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Llanmartinangel says...
4:22pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Mervyn James wrote:
There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.

Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?

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james jackson says...
7:29pm Fri 18 Jan 13

Ray Davies is absolutely right. Britain should mind its own business, sort out better conditions for its citizens; recognise that it's no longer a big world power and get on with the business of living and enjoying life, even.
The government has destabilised so many countries now, that the population of GB is confused as to who is "good" and who is "our official enemy." It changes on a whim.
But don;t run away with the idea that we are the good guys. Only stupid people believe that. We have caused so much pain and misery abroad, it's not true.
Think Iraq, Afghanistan; India, Africa, Northern Ireland...

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P C Neilson says...
1:33am Sat 19 Jan 13

I must admit to being one of the stupid ones then, because I think we are the 'good guys'. The middle east fascist regimes and anti west terrorist cells are not only our enemies, but they are a real threat to democracy and world peace and we must continue to destroy them whenever we can.

Our government might not have been straight with the general public on our reasons to go to war, but it wasn't for personal gain or kissing up to the US.

What we had was a theocratic dictatorship that had broken all 3 of the international peace treaty agreements by mass genocide and the invasion of kuwait. If anything we were way too slow to come to the aid of the hunreds of thousands being massacred. Nazi Germany comes flooding back.

If 3000 people being murdered by anti west islamists by smashing passenger planes at 700mph is not a reason to go to war, then I don't know what is. It is well documented that the attacks were aimed at crippling the worlds economy, and I think it has more successful than is let on. They are religious fascists that despise us in every way, they believe that we are the enemy, the end of days is coming, and they simply will not stop untill their theocratic destiny is fulfilled.

We cannot afford to have people like this to be in the possession of nuclear weapons. Heaven is real to them and they cannot wait to get there, it's common for the families of suicide bombers to rejoice at the automatic inclusion a dead martyr son will get them.

We have killed a lot more of them than they have of us, now they are trying to get a hold in Africa and spread their poison there.

Any islamist behaviour back home, will be tolerated at our peril. Further offence to this fascist ideology should be last thing we should worry about when we are told ad nauseum, what their plans for the west are.

The Jews are without compare, the most victimised, scapegoated, and murdered group in the history of man. I think that it was the very least that minkind should have done to give what was left of them a land to call home. Any opposition to this is really quite vile and the fighting there is once again theocratic nonsense when you get down to the bones of it.

War is disgusting, and death for both sides is the admission fee, but freedom, human rights and killing those who would take it from us is really the only reason to ever consider such an act. There is no conspiracy, just a public that prefers the complicated answer over what really happens when the killing commences in our name.

I must admit to being one of the stupid ones then, because I think we are the 'good guys'. The middle east fascist regimes and anti west terrorist cells are not only our enemies, but they are a real threat to democracy and world peace and we must continue to destroy them whenever we can. Our government might not have been straight with the general public on our reasons to go to war, but it wasn't for personal gain or kissing up to the US. What we had was a theocratic dictatorship that had broken all 3 of the international peace treaty agreements by mass genocide and the invasion of kuwait. If anything we were way too slow to come to the aid of the hunreds of thousands being massacred. Nazi Germany comes flooding back. If 3000 people being murdered by anti west islamists by smashing passenger planes at 700mph is not a reason to go to war, then I don't know what is. It is well documented that the attacks were aimed at crippling the worlds economy, and I think it has more successful than is let on. They are religious fascists that despise us in every way, they believe that we are the enemy, the end of days is coming, and they simply will not stop untill their theocratic destiny is fulfilled. We cannot afford to have people like this to be in the possession of nuclear weapons. Heaven is real to them and they cannot wait to get there, it's common for the families of suicide bombers to rejoice at the automatic inclusion a dead martyr son will get them. We have killed a lot more of them than they have of us, now they are trying to get a hold in Africa and spread their poison there. Any islamist behaviour back home, will be tolerated at our peril. Further offence to this fascist ideology should be last thing we should worry about when we are told ad nauseum, what their plans for the west are. The Jews are without compare, the most victimised, scapegoated, and murdered group in the history of man. I think that it was the very least that minkind should have done to give what was left of them a land to call home. Any opposition to this is really quite vile and the fighting there is once again theocratic nonsense when you get down to the bones of it. War is disgusting, and death for both sides is the admission fee, but freedom, human rights and killing those who would take it from us is really the only reason to ever consider such an act. There is no conspiracy, just a public that prefers the complicated answer over what really happens when the killing commences in our name. P C Neilson

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Mervyn James says...
10:39am Sat 19 Jan 13

we are the soft touch ! Americans put the OK in the top 20 listings of areas "With known terrorist activity and medium/high training/indoctrinat
ion' radicalism potential.

All courtesy of British/European human right laws. What I fail to then understand is why, America wants us to stay IN the European fiasco ?

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Mervyn James says...
10:40am Sat 19 Jan 13

UK not OK a Freudian thing there !

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james jackson says...
1:10pm Sat 19 Jan 13

PC Neilson is wrong on so many counts.
People need to read their histories and take the scales from their eyes.
We're decidedly not the good guys, unfashionable though this sentiment is.
Every conflict has the US hand on it and we're a signatory, along with France and our other European allies.
Israel, the biggest flouter of every international agreement and non-proliferation treaty is armed to the teeth and has a massive nuclear arsenal, enough to wipe us all out.
It is funded by its US masters (or is the US the servant?) and it's well-supplied with the materiel of war.It is a nasty bully, vis-a-vis Palestine (2009, 2012) and is no more a victim than any other country.
Martin Luther King once said: The US is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today. The UK is not far behind.
The trouble with people on this board is that they are inherently racist and think that those living in the Middle East are somehow less human.
Read up on Mossadeq (1953) for example.

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P C Neilson says...
2:15pm Sat 19 Jan 13

I must respectfully disagree here, to me this kind of talk smacks of propaganda spread by people who are so terrified of offending islamist extremists, that they scuttle to shift the blame by way of creating an unknowing public and a sneaky warmongering government that goes against the peoples desires.

Well they 'are' offended, they are offended that we exist. Tough. I might change my mind on whether we really are the good guys or not, but I have no doubt that going into Afganistan and Iraq was definitely the right thing to do. We didn't do it lightly and the public generously ignored 'years' of the bodies piling up on the news, no doubt with the attitude 'it's not our problem'.

As for Israel being massively over armed and a bully? They could wipe the palastinians off the face of the earth if they wanted, why don't they? Judging by the way the opposition is so fond of using women and children for both targets 'and' shields, I don't think that they would be so generous.

At the time the Jews settled everyone was fine with it, but then the population grows and then there is a problem. Ask someone who grew up in somewhere that was until recently progressive such as Egypt, what a wahabi arab version of Islam has done to the people, and then tell me that it is not a good reason to go to war.

We may not be the good guys when you deeply rationalise what happens in times of war, but you can be sure that we don't want to ignore what is unfolding in front of our eyes. It should be something that shakes and disgusts us, something we as humans want to protect ourselves from. Egypt is a little snapshot of what the ostrich approach gets you when you ignore religious fascists.

Martin Luther may have been right when he said that, but thanks to us and the americans 50 million people in Afganistan and Iraq were liberated. No thanks for that!

The wahabi flavour of Islam is the most dangerous thing in the world today, it means us harm and it will not go away because we shy away from it, tell ourselves it isn't true.

I must respectfully disagree here, to me this kind of talk smacks of propaganda spread by people who are so terrified of offending islamist extremists, that they scuttle to shift the blame by way of creating an unknowing public and a sneaky warmongering government that goes against the peoples desires. Well they 'are' offended, they are offended that we exist. Tough. I might change my mind on whether we really are the good guys or not, but I have no doubt that going into Afganistan and Iraq was definitely the right thing to do. We didn't do it lightly and the public generously ignored 'years' of the bodies piling up on the news, no doubt with the attitude 'it's not our problem'. As for Israel being massively over armed and a bully? They could wipe the palastinians off the face of the earth if they wanted, why don't they? Judging by the way the opposition is so fond of using women and children for both targets 'and' shields, I don't think that they would be so generous. At the time the Jews settled everyone was fine with it, but then the population grows and then there is a problem. Ask someone who grew up in somewhere that was until recently progressive such as Egypt, what a wahabi arab version of Islam has done to the people, and then tell me that it is not a good reason to go to war. We may not be the good guys when you deeply rationalise what happens in times of war, but you can be sure that we don't want to ignore what is unfolding in front of our eyes. It should be something that shakes and disgusts us, something we as humans want to protect ourselves from. Egypt is a little snapshot of what the ostrich approach gets you when you ignore religious fascists. Martin Luther may have been right when he said that, but thanks to us and the americans 50 million people in Afganistan and Iraq were liberated. No thanks for that! The wahabi flavour of Islam is the most dangerous thing in the world today, it means us harm and it will not go away because we shy away from it, tell ourselves it isn't true. P C Neilson

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Llanmartinangel says...
2:39pm Sat 19 Jan 13

One thing that characterises a 'they started it' style arguement is that however far back one view goes, the other will go back further. N Ireland is another example. The reality is that we are where we are and that you cannot defend yourself without taking a hard stance. We've been trying to fight battles by Queensbury rules for a while now. (The Belgrano, a weapon of war in a conflict we didn't start is a good example. We needed a PM decision to attack it). Those who mean us harm now have no such sensibilities. That those who preach death to innocent people here, then claim UK benefits and asylum laws in their defence, (and legal aid), clearly illustrate that we need to man up and get tough. We can start with a wholesale clear out of known miscreants and stop pretending that if we play nice, we'll get some credit for it. We won't.

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Howie' says...
3:45pm Sat 19 Jan 13

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mervyn James wrote:
There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.
Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?

Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe.

LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored.

http://www.guardian.
co.uk/news/datablog/
2010/sep/07/immigrat
ion-europe-foreign-c
itizens#

[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.[/p][/quote]Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?[/p][/quote]Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe. LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored. http://www.guardian. co.uk/news/datablog/ 2010/sep/07/immigrat ion-europe-foreign-c itizens# Howie'

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Llanmartinangel says...
6:21pm Sat 19 Jan 13

Howie' wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mervyn James wrote:
There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.
Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?
Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe.

LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored.

http://www.guardian.

co.uk/news/datablog/

2010/sep/07/immigrat

ion-europe-foreign-c

itizens#

http://www.adnkronos
.com/IGN/Aki/English
/Politics/Italy-Amne
sty-International-ch
ides-govt-over-Tunis
ian-migrants-deporta
tions_311933412996.h
tml

http://www.dw.de/fra
nce-deports-more-rom
a-in-defiance-of-int
ernational-criticism
/a-5947977

Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?

[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.[/p][/quote]Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?[/p][/quote]Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe. LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored. http://www.guardian. co.uk/news/datablog/ 2010/sep/07/immigrat ion-europe-foreign-c itizens#[/p][/quote]http://www.adnkronos .com/IGN/Aki/English /Politics/Italy-Amne sty-International-ch ides-govt-over-Tunis ian-migrants-deporta tions_311933412996.h tml http://www.dw.de/fra nce-deports-more-rom a-in-defiance-of-int ernational-criticism /a-5947977 Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh? Llanmartinangel

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Howie' says...
1:25am Sun 20 Jan 13

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Howie' wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mervyn James wrote:
There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.
Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?
Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe.

LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored.

http://www.guardian.

co.uk/news/datablog/

2010/sep/07/immigrat

ion-europe-foreign-c

itizens#
http://www.adnkronos

.com/IGN/Aki/English

/Politics/Italy-Amne

sty-International-ch

ides-govt-over-Tunis

ian-migrants-deporta

tions_311933412996.h

tml

http://www.dw.de/fra

nce-deports-more-rom

a-in-defiance-of-int

ernational-criticism

/a-5947977

Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?

Well that particular point is being addressed, Switzerland is being forced to open up and other tax havens are about to follow, thanks to the Americans.

How about just for once answering a question, I know you don't like to:

LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored.

[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.[/p][/quote]Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?[/p][/quote]Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe. LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored. http://www.guardian. co.uk/news/datablog/ 2010/sep/07/immigrat ion-europe-foreign-c itizens#[/p][/quote]http://www.adnkronos .com/IGN/Aki/English /Politics/Italy-Amne sty-International-ch ides-govt-over-Tunis ian-migrants-deporta tions_311933412996.h tml http://www.dw.de/fra nce-deports-more-rom a-in-defiance-of-int ernational-criticism /a-5947977 Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?[/p][/quote]Well that particular point is being addressed, Switzerland is being forced to open up and other tax havens are about to follow, thanks to the Americans. How about just for once answering a question, I know you don't like to: LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored. Howie'

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Llanmartinangel says...
10:28am Sun 20 Jan 13

What I actually said was 'interpretation of...'. In both those stories, i.e. Tunisians being deported to an 'unsafe place' and Roma being deported, it would not have happened here. We've spent the last god knows how many years trying to get rid of Quatada? Also you missed the point about immigration to Luxembourg. It isn't a tax haven, it just has more benign tax laws. If you become tax domicile there, you pay their rates not the punitive rates of France for example. So, instead of France getting Euros500k off someone earning a million a year, they get nothing. Another 'genius' socialist idea.

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Newport Spark says...
4:10pm Sun 20 Jan 13

The only reason we ever get involved in disputes is purely greed. It always involves natural gas or oil. If there is nothing in it for the government they don't do anything. The latest incidents in Africa,Afghanistan,I
raq,Libya and heaven forbid we ever get involved in Iran. Bringing democracy or ending terrorism is just the smoke screen that people buy time after time.

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P C Neilson says...
7:57pm Sun 20 Jan 13

@ Newport Spark, that is really old conspiracy theory nonsense. I've yet to come across any convincing evidence backing such claims. As far as I know, we haven't gained financially out of any of it!

Show your workings please or give examples (links) that can be checked.

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Mervyn James says...
8:47am Mon 21 Jan 13

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Howie' wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mervyn James wrote:
There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.
Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?
Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe.

LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored.

http://www.guardian.

co.uk/news/datablog/

2010/sep/07/immigrat

ion-europe-foreign-c

itizens#
http://www.adnkronos

.com/IGN/Aki/English

/Politics/Italy-Amne

sty-International-ch

ides-govt-over-Tunis

ian-migrants-deporta

tions_311933412996.h

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http://www.dw.de/fra

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a-in-defiance-of-int

ernational-criticism

/a-5947977

Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?

You are talking different migrants. NOT including others like free-loading eastern bloc Europeans who are not registered at all because they have freedom of movement, I suspect THEY have made it too hard for many illegals to make any mileage here, made it hard for us too.

Roll on the referendum we can repatriate the lot of them. We've still got 300,000 KNOWN illegals here we can't bluddy shift. Cut the red tape deport them. Along with their rights lawyers ripping us all off as a soft touch. As for Abu, if they don't know how to shift him, there is no shortage of advice how to. Just DO IT !

[quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.[/p][/quote]Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?[/p][/quote]Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe. LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored. http://www.guardian. co.uk/news/datablog/ 2010/sep/07/immigrat ion-europe-foreign-c itizens#[/p][/quote]http://www.adnkronos .com/IGN/Aki/English /Politics/Italy-Amne sty-International-ch ides-govt-over-Tunis ian-migrants-deporta tions_311933412996.h tml http://www.dw.de/fra nce-deports-more-rom a-in-defiance-of-int ernational-criticism /a-5947977 Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?[/p][/quote]You are talking different migrants. NOT including others like free-loading eastern bloc Europeans who are not registered at all because they have freedom of movement, I suspect THEY have made it too hard for many illegals to make any mileage here, made it hard for us too. Roll on the referendum we can repatriate the lot of them. We've still got 300,000 KNOWN illegals here we can't bluddy shift. Cut the red tape deport them. Along with their rights lawyers ripping us all off as a soft touch. As for Abu, if they don't know how to shift him, there is no shortage of advice how to. Just DO IT ! Mervyn James

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tking says...
12:34pm Mon 21 Jan 13

If you log on to uk.reuters.com and schroll down to the "signed deals" for Iraqi oil fields with largest fields first and then according to size, Britain and China are in the top three.

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Llanmartinangel says...
1:29pm Mon 21 Jan 13

Mervyn James wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Howie' wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mervyn James wrote:
There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.
Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?
Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe.

LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored.

http://www.guardian.

co.uk/news/datablog/

2010/sep/07/immigrat

ion-europe-foreign-c

itizens#
http://www.adnkronos

.com/IGN/Aki/English

/Politics/Italy-Amne

sty-International-ch

ides-govt-over-Tunis

ian-migrants-deporta

tions_311933412996.h

tml

http://www.dw.de/fra

nce-deports-more-rom

a-in-defiance-of-int

ernational-criticism

/a-5947977

Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?
You are talking different migrants. NOT including others like free-loading eastern bloc Europeans who are not registered at all because they have freedom of movement, I suspect THEY have made it too hard for many illegals to make any mileage here, made it hard for us too.

Roll on the referendum we can repatriate the lot of them. We've still got 300,000 KNOWN illegals here we can't bluddy shift. Cut the red tape deport them. Along with their rights lawyers ripping us all off as a soft touch. As for Abu, if they don't know how to shift him, there is no shortage of advice how to. Just DO IT !

Entirely agree with you Mervyn. Every word in fact.

[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.[/p][/quote]Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?[/p][/quote]Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe. LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored. http://www.guardian. co.uk/news/datablog/ 2010/sep/07/immigrat ion-europe-foreign-c itizens#[/p][/quote]http://www.adnkronos .com/IGN/Aki/English /Politics/Italy-Amne sty-International-ch ides-govt-over-Tunis ian-migrants-deporta tions_311933412996.h tml http://www.dw.de/fra nce-deports-more-rom a-in-defiance-of-int ernational-criticism /a-5947977 Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?[/p][/quote]You are talking different migrants. NOT including others like free-loading eastern bloc Europeans who are not registered at all because they have freedom of movement, I suspect THEY have made it too hard for many illegals to make any mileage here, made it hard for us too. Roll on the referendum we can repatriate the lot of them. We've still got 300,000 KNOWN illegals here we can't bluddy shift. Cut the red tape deport them. Along with their rights lawyers ripping us all off as a soft touch. As for Abu, if they don't know how to shift him, there is no shortage of advice how to. Just DO IT ![/p][/quote]Entirely agree with you Mervyn. Every word in fact. Llanmartinangel

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Howie' says...
8:30pm Mon 21 Jan 13

Mervyn James wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Howie' wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:

Mervyn James wrote:
There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.
Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?
Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe.

LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored.

http://www.guardian.

co.uk/news/datablog/

2010/sep/07/immigrat

ion-europe-foreign-c

itizens#
http://www.adnkronos

.com/IGN/Aki/English

/Politics/Italy-Amne

sty-International-ch

ides-govt-over-Tunis

ian-migrants-deporta

tions_311933412996.h

tml

http://www.dw.de/fra

nce-deports-more-rom

a-in-defiance-of-int

ernational-criticism

/a-5947977

Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?
You are talking different migrants. NOT including others like free-loading eastern bloc Europeans who are not registered at all because they have freedom of movement, I suspect THEY have made it too hard for many illegals to make any mileage here, made it hard for us too.

Roll on the referendum we can repatriate the lot of them. We've still got 300,000 KNOWN illegals here we can't bluddy shift. Cut the red tape deport them. Along with their rights lawyers ripping us all off as a soft touch. As for Abu, if they don't know how to shift him, there is no shortage of advice how to. Just DO IT !

lol, the wrong type of migrant is it Merv.

Thats put a smile on my face but I think you should really read the article and where do you get the information that East Europeans are free loaders when the vast majority of them over here are working?

[quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Mervyn James[/bold] wrote: There is no GB, it died in 1914. We are fighting 'over there' and Al Queda is being protected over HERE ! it is sheer bloody madness. Africa is just across the Mediterranean from Europe if the terrorists get freedom in North Africa they can just come straight here curtesy of European freedom to travel laws, as for helping France WHY ? I distinctly recall France said unless we paid up they would allow illegal migrants to flood our country, how many of those already here courtesy of French intransigence, are 'sleepers' for AL Queda already ? Ask Italy about the flood of illegals there, they took move them on and towards the UK,if Europe wants to address the issues of terrorism start by blocking the illegals right to travel and repatriate them sharpish ! They start in Italy and head straight for us, despite a law stating Italy has to keep them there. Let's back the Italians by operating gunboats off the north African coast and stopping any more coming.[/p][/quote]Spot on. The interpretation of the good old human rights act is Britain's enemy. Italy and France ignore it when it suits them and their security. Can you imagine Thatcher playing these games?[/p][/quote]Their not all heading for the UK Merv, in fact the average migration across the EU 27 states is 6.4% of the population whilst we are marginally higher at 6.6% but it includes countries that have little migration such as Romania 0.1%, Poland and Slovakia 1%, so it shows the influx of foreigners in to Europe is pretty much shared across most states. Mind you Luxembourg has 43.5% but I suppose that's OK because most of them will be wealthy people looking to hide their money from the taxman, even Iceland has a higher percentage than us at 7.6%, Germany 8.8%, Ireland 11.0%....so it's not all one way traffic to Britain as the Daily Heil would have us believe. LMA, Not sure what your point is about Human Rights or what HR rulings the French and Italians have ignored. http://www.guardian. co.uk/news/datablog/ 2010/sep/07/immigrat ion-europe-foreign-c itizens#[/p][/quote]http://www.adnkronos .com/IGN/Aki/English /Politics/Italy-Amne sty-International-ch ides-govt-over-Tunis ian-migrants-deporta tions_311933412996.h tml http://www.dw.de/fra nce-deports-more-rom a-in-defiance-of-int ernational-criticism /a-5947977 Good point about immigration of wealthy people into Luxembourg. It illustrates the futility of trying to take even more from the rich only to get absolutely nothing instead eh?[/p][/quote]You are talking different migrants. NOT including others like free-loading eastern bloc Europeans who are not registered at all because they have freedom of movement, I suspect THEY have made it too hard for many illegals to make any mileage here, made it hard for us too. Roll on the referendum we can repatriate the lot of them. We've still got 300,000 KNOWN illegals here we can't bluddy shift. Cut the red tape deport them. Along with their rights lawyers ripping us all off as a soft touch. As for Abu, if they don't know how to shift him, there is no shortage of advice how to. Just DO IT ![/p][/quote]lol, the wrong type of migrant is it Merv. Thats put a smile on my face but I think you should really read the article and where do you get the information that East Europeans are free loaders when the vast majority of them over here are working? Howie'

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Howie' says...
1:27pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Llanmartinangel wrote:
What I actually said was 'interpretation of...'. In both those stories, i.e. Tunisians being deported to an 'unsafe place' and Roma being deported, it would not have happened here. We've spent the last god knows how many years trying to get rid of Quatada? Also you missed the point about immigration to Luxembourg. It isn't a tax haven, it just has more benign tax laws. If you become tax domicile there, you pay their rates not the punitive rates of France for example. So, instead of France getting Euros500k off someone earning a million a year, they get nothing. Another 'genius' socialist idea.

Well we don't live in France and the UK tax regime sits very favourably with most of Europe, Eastern Europe excepted.
If everyone who was able too, became domiciled for tax reasons, this country would suffer in the provision of the services that we all want in a civilized society. We are already losing £35bn through tax evasion/avoidance (I'm well aware of the difference but most avoidance schemes turn out to be evasion). I think anyone who domiciles themselves for tax reasons when they already live in a country with a low personal tax take deserves all the opprobrium that is heaped on them, you on the other hand seem to agree with it. None of us like paying tax but it is the glue that holds society together.
Strange how you decry benefit claimants yet seem to be happy with wealthy people taking taxable income out of the country.

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county mad says...
2:09pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Do we sit on the side and watch militant Islamic fundamentalists take over another African state? The people of South Sudan have fought to free themselves of such tyranny don't you think they have a good reason to fear the Wahibi way of life ( death mutilation enslavement) .It's unfortunate but we cannot ignore this real threat

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Llanmartinangel says...
3:16pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Howie' wrote:

Llanmartinangel wrote:
What I actually said was 'interpretation of...'. In both those stories, i.e. Tunisians being deported to an 'unsafe place' and Roma being deported, it would not have happened here. We've spent the last god knows how many years trying to get rid of Quatada? Also you missed the point about immigration to Luxembourg. It isn't a tax haven, it just has more benign tax laws. If you become tax domicile there, you pay their rates not the punitive rates of France for example. So, instead of France getting Euros500k off someone earning a million a year, they get nothing. Another 'genius' socialist idea.
Well we don't live in France and the UK tax regime sits very favourably with most of Europe, Eastern Europe excepted.
If everyone who was able too, became domiciled for tax reasons, this country would suffer in the provision of the services that we all want in a civilized society. We are already losing £35bn through tax evasion/avoidance (I'm well aware of the difference but most avoidance schemes turn out to be evasion). I think anyone who domiciles themselves for tax reasons when they already live in a country with a low personal tax take deserves all the opprobrium that is heaped on them, you on the other hand seem to agree with it. None of us like paying tax but it is the glue that holds society together.
Strange how you decry benefit claimants yet seem to be happy with wealthy people taking taxable income out of the country.

You misquote me again Howie. I've never condoned tax evasion but recognise that avoidance is a fact of life. There have always been and will always be greedy people, just like there will always be crooks of all social classes. My point was that, if you push taxation to a point where avoiding it becomes worthwhile, then it will happen. And when that happens, the country loses out not gains. It makes more sense to take half of rich people's earnings and be content with that than try and screw another 10% and get none. My view is that all legitimate tax should be paid and governments should not spend more than it needs to ensure society works. You and I agree on that though not necessarily how best to achieve it.

[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Llanmartinangel[/bold] wrote: What I actually said was 'interpretation of...'. In both those stories, i.e. Tunisians being deported to an 'unsafe place' and Roma being deported, it would not have happened here. We've spent the last god knows how many years trying to get rid of Quatada? Also you missed the point about immigration to Luxembourg. It isn't a tax haven, it just has more benign tax laws. If you become tax domicile there, you pay their rates not the punitive rates of France for example. So, instead of France getting Euros500k off someone earning a million a year, they get nothing. Another 'genius' socialist idea.[/p][/quote]Well we don't live in France and the UK tax regime sits very favourably with most of Europe, Eastern Europe excepted. If everyone who was able too, became domiciled for tax reasons, this country would suffer in the provision of the services that we all want in a civilized society. We are already losing £35bn through tax evasion/avoidance (I'm well aware of the difference but most avoidance schemes turn out to be evasion). I think anyone who domiciles themselves for tax reasons when they already live in a country with a low personal tax take deserves all the opprobrium that is heaped on them, you on the other hand seem to agree with it. None of us like paying tax but it is the glue that holds society together. Strange how you decry benefit claimants yet seem to be happy with wealthy people taking taxable income out of the country.[/p][/quote]You misquote me again Howie. I've never condoned tax evasion but recognise that avoidance is a fact of life. There have always been and will always be greedy people, just like there will always be crooks of all social classes. My point was that, if you push taxation to a point where avoiding it becomes worthwhile, then it will happen. And when that happens, the country loses out not gains. It makes more sense to take half of rich people's earnings and be content with that than try and screw another 10% and get none. My view is that all legitimate tax should be paid and governments should not spend more than it needs to ensure society works. You and I agree on that though not necessarily how best to achieve it. Llanmartinangel

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Dolieboy says...
5:33pm Tue 22 Jan 13

tking wrote:
If you log on to uk.reuters.com and schroll down to the "signed deals" for Iraqi oil fields with largest fields first and then according to size, Britain and China are in the top three.

And ? So who is running Iraq now ? An Iraqi democracy. We also buy oil from Saudi and gas from Qatar. Don't see any plans on the table to invade those.

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james jackson says...
5:41pm Tue 22 Jan 13

That's because these two wonderful "democratic" countries are best buddies with the west.
We're good pals with the autocratic Saudi royal family and turn a blind eye to all the human rights atrocities.
We also sell lots of arms to these appalling regimes.
Maybe someone could enlighten us to why this is so.
Iraq and Saddam were friends of ours too, until Bushie boy decided they weren't any more.
Absolute madness.

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Dolieboy says...
6:39pm Tue 22 Jan 13

Money. A bit like us ignoring China's lack of human rights. But hey as long as we can the latest clothes etc. dirt cheap in our stores who are we to complain ?

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