Our bodies will belong to state

10:53am Friday 10th August 2012 in Letters

I ATTENDED a public meeting at Cardiff City Hall on August 6, to discuss the Welsh government’s draft legislation concerning human organ donation – what is called a ‘soft opt-out system’, where a person’s consent to donation will be deemed to have been given unless they object during their lifetime.

In simple lay terms, if the Bill is successful and, clearly the Welsh government is determined that it will be, our bodies will become the property of the state.

What this Bill is relying on is the large section of the general public who won’t be engaged enough to take the time to either opt in or out.

Beware, the general public, of what is going on in your name, while you sit cosily watching the Olympics.

Paul Botto, Splott Road, Cardiff

Comments(30)

Mervyn James says...
1:04pm Fri 10 Aug 12

Where is the campaign for opting out ? The Assembly seems only to be plugging the NHS pick n mix option, it is little short of body snatching. Not so long ago they took body parts out of babies without telling parents, and a week ago keeping body parts of our lads that died abroad fighting for freedom of choice. I do not believe an law is needed. If they cannot 'sell' the idea of donation, they are trying to pass a law to take body parts anyway ? MY GP has no idea how a patient may be able to opt OUT.

Report this post »

melaniew says...
2:32pm Fri 10 Aug 12

Please remember that it is not the state that decides whether or not you bother to do something about organ donation it is us as individuals. It is not that state that would therefore benefit from a donated organ it is an individual like you, your family or friends.
On the flip side this piece of legislation will allow those who truly object to have their wishes upheld.

Report this post »

papa says...
8:11pm Fri 10 Aug 12

I have had numerous letters published by the Argus about this subject and am waiting for another one at this moment.
The facts are these, every part of your body is liable for donation not just the main organs. The Welsh donations will go on the national and international register and it is possible that it may be many years before a Welsh recipient gets a Welsh donated organ, so those waiting for an organ in Newport and the rest of Wales, you may die before this law helps you. It should be remembered that the shortage of donated organs was caused by the abuse of the medical profession and the NHS Trusts over many decades resulting in the scandals of the late 1990's, early 2000's which involved myself and family and these are the very same people and organisations that the Welsh Assembly will be handing control over too. In my case I was told a pack of lies by the CEO of Gwent NHS Trust for two years and documents and medical records were destroyed, a common practice by all NHS Trusts when they think that litigation may happen .
This bill if it becomes law will devastate many Welsh families in the future as the families of soldiers killed on active service are finding out now. The answer to organ donation which I fully support but voluntary only is in education, not legislation!

Report this post »

brian819@btinternet.com says...
9:06pm Fri 10 Aug 12

I am asking once again, how is my decision to opt out to be guaranteed as being absolutely cast iron. I insist on being told and not flannelled by a government who clearly refuses to make clear what steps are necessary to achieve this end. I think that I shall have to make a clause in my will that states quite clearly to my executor that If, after opting out, any of my body parts are used for the purpose of donation, and I shall want by body medically checked for this purpose, despite my wishes to the contrary, that court proceedings shall be taken against the felon who did the deed or his organisation and any expenses paid initially from my estate. Though naturally, I shall also be suing for compensation as much as can be obtained. Let them pick the bones out of that.

Report this post »

papa says...
12:09am Sat 11 Aug 12

Nobody will have any guarantee that their wishes will be honoured and if mistakes are made then the "cover up" will be implemented as I have personally found out.
What the Welsh Assembly is expecting and will happen is that the majority of Welsh citizens will opt-out now with the AM's in the lead but for example in 20 years and more, the Welsh citizens will not know about the opt-out situation because they won't be told until its actually happened but by then the grief and pain inflicted on the families concerned by the Welsh Assembly will be too late and quite frankly the AM's and others who instigated this proposal won't be around to give a shyte!

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
10:12am Sat 11 Aug 12

I think the fact it could lead to the NHS being sued every time, is going to make it hard to implement. Perhaps we should encourage the 'ambulance chasers' to make the reality known to the assembly if it carries on. They are going to literally make a killing on this legislation.

Report this post »

nolongergullible says...
11:31am Sat 11 Aug 12

Dead is dead, followed by putrefication. Better that another life be extended by making use of redundant bits that would otherwise be disposed of. People need to be less precious over something that was not theirs in the first place. The original owners certainly have no further use of their bits and pieces. Put me down for a ``pro`` vote.

Report this post »

papa says...
5:22pm Sat 11 Aug 12

nolongergullible wrote:
Dead is dead, followed by putrefication. Better that another life be extended by making use of redundant bits that would otherwise be disposed of. People need to be less precious over something that was not theirs in the first place. The original owners certainly have no further use of their bits and pieces. Put me down for a ``pro`` vote.
Comments like that lead me to believe that you are another hypocrite thats never carried an organ donor card in your life guaranteeing that your body parts will never be used. What I suggest is that you contact the families of the soldiers killed in action and tell them that all the army are holding of their loved ones are rotting pieces of flesh!

Report this post »

nolongergullible says...
8:16pm Sat 11 Aug 12

You should not make assumptions. However, you do make my point for me. Unlesss body parts are preserved they will rot. The bodies returned to the families are now rotting in the earth or reduced to ash. Emotional rubbish such that you write is not helpful to a reasoned discussion.

Report this post »

papa says...
9:47pm Sat 11 Aug 12

nolongergullible wrote:
You should not make assumptions. However, you do make my point for me. Unlesss body parts are preserved they will rot. The bodies returned to the families are now rotting in the earth or reduced to ash. Emotional rubbish such that you write is not helpful to a reasoned discussion.
Nobody would want one part you thats for certain not even the trash man.

Report this post »

nolongergullible says...
7:04am Sun 12 Aug 12

And yet, potentially I could have a bit of you. How strange is the way of the world.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
12:01pm Sun 12 Aug 12

nolongergullible wrote:
You should not make assumptions. However, you do make my point for me. Unlesss body parts are preserved they will rot. The bodies returned to the families are now rotting in the earth or reduced to ash. Emotional rubbish such that you write is not helpful to a reasoned discussion.
In all of this, no-one is respecting the right of the person to decide over his body/remains. This fundamental right has to be respected, it is not for others to say "look it's no use to you, give it to someone else.." That belief may not be theirs, and it is THEIR body. Do what you like with your own, I respect that right as well.

Report this post »

nolongergullible says...
2:20pm Sun 12 Aug 12

If a similar system to the Spanish model is used, dissent is easily accomodated. It has operated for a number of years without serious problems. At the end of the day, assumed consent does rely heavily on public support. Provided suitable safegaurds are built into the legislation many of the concerns should be allayed.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
5:03pm Mon 13 Aug 12

Where ARE the safeguards ? Since a lot of body parts are made 'available' after an sudden accident/death then assumed consent is a free-for -all for the medical profession. Since no-one knows when accidents like this happen, most do not opt out do they ? If legislation is to now make it an automatic Opt IN, then an equal advertising campaign now needs to make it clear how we can opt out, this is fair. No such campaign is being mooted or supported.

Report this post »

zorro says...
12:18pm Tue 14 Aug 12

I fail to see how this idea can be justified in law.
As I understand it, in contract law presumed consent is no consent. For example, a firm sends you unsolicited goods and says that unless they hear from you to the contrary you will be deemed to have accepted the goods and must pay for them Nothing of the kind; in law, they either collect them or you keep them.
Isn't that the same principle?.

Report this post »

Antigone12 says...
10:47pm Tue 14 Aug 12

I am deeply concerned about the proposed changes to the donor system. What exactly is the Assembly/NHS in Wales planning to do with our organs? For several years I worked as a Staff Nurse on a kidney transplant unit. We struggled to deal with the number of transplant patients that we had because of a lack of nurses, doctors, beds, equipment, theatre space, theatre staff and specialist community nurses. Since the recession, NHS services have been reduced along with funding and staff. What is the point in having more donor organs if there will not be enough resources to perform the transplants? Perhaps the Assembly is planning to sell the organs to private individuals overseas. Afterall, this is a problem that was brought to light in 2003/2004 when it was found that some transplant surgeons in the UK were selling organs to overseas patients. These surgeons were not struck off, but simply given a slap on the wrist. So, perhaps the sale of organs is part of Carwyn Jones big plan to keep the NHS afloat and make a bit of extra dosh in the process. I would have less of an issue with an opt out system if the problem of a serious lack of resources had been addressed first. Why wasn't it?

Report this post »

Strider says...
10:52pm Tue 14 Aug 12

nolongergullible wrote:
You should not make assumptions. However, you do make my point for me. Unlesss body parts are preserved they will rot. The bodies returned to the families are now rotting in the earth or reduced to ash. Emotional rubbish such that you write is not helpful to a reasoned discussion.
Do you carry a Donar card? A simple yes or no please!

Look at the 'Alder Hey' organ scandal and the unauthorised removal, retention, and disposal of human tissue, including children’s organs..

We established you believe your opinion is fact, you told us your opinion is fact several times, but where are the safeguards?

Report this post »

papa says...
12:00am Wed 15 Aug 12

Well ExremelyGullible, the Spanish law on organ donation has been full of issues contrary to your post. The increase in organ donations over the last few years in Spain is less than the increase in donated organs in the UK without any presumed consent.
Not that myself and family were involved with the Alder Hey scandal that Strider has mentioned but that was the reason I approached Gwent NHS Trust (now renamed) about my son and was told a pack of lies by Martin Turner, the CEO of the Trust for two years. All this is well documented and listed on a web site called brendan sean mcguire (google it) and his body parts along with many others from Monmouthshire were stolen by our local NHS Trust, how on earth they can possibly use the word TRUST I don't know!!
I and my family are victims of the dirty tricks that not only our local trust got up too but all of the NHS trusts and they should NEVER be allowed to have any control over organ donation in any form unless they are minutely policed independently. This is no reflection on the work that Antigone12 and his colleagues have done and they should be congratulated in their handling of a delicate situation where the bereaved families are concerned as well as the families of the donor recipient. And as Mervyn James has pointed out, it is yours and your families human right to decide what to do with your body and the Welsh Assembly have no rights over those.
Now posting here will have very little effect on this issue and it would be better if you all submitted a letter to the Argus so that the AMs would know your views either for or against because at times I feel like a voice in the wilderness.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
9:41am Wed 15 Aug 12

Antigone12 wrote:
I am deeply concerned about the proposed changes to the donor system. What exactly is the Assembly/NHS in Wales planning to do with our organs? For several years I worked as a Staff Nurse on a kidney transplant unit. We struggled to deal with the number of transplant patients that we had because of a lack of nurses, doctors, beds, equipment, theatre space, theatre staff and specialist community nurses. Since the recession, NHS services have been reduced along with funding and staff. What is the point in having more donor organs if there will not be enough resources to perform the transplants? Perhaps the Assembly is planning to sell the organs to private individuals overseas. Afterall, this is a problem that was brought to light in 2003/2004 when it was found that some transplant surgeons in the UK were selling organs to overseas patients. These surgeons were not struck off, but simply given a slap on the wrist. So, perhaps the sale of organs is part of Carwyn Jones big plan to keep the NHS afloat and make a bit of extra dosh in the process. I would have less of an issue with an opt out system if the problem of a serious lack of resources had been addressed first. Why wasn't it?
They cannot restrict organs to welsh people for a start, so we are passing a law to supply the rest of UK from Wales as no presumed consent is being mooted elsewhere. Wales will become an 'Organ Farm' for everyone else. It's immoral and 'big brother'.

Report this post »

papa says...
10:19am Wed 15 Aug 12

The Bill only allows organs to be taken from residents in Wales. People passing through or entering Wales who do live here will be exempt and all donations will go on the national and international registers and so it is very unlikely that any Welsh residents needing an organ transplant will get one for some considerable time and will possibly have to wait the same length of time for a transplant as they are now. The saddest part of this Bill is that the Welsh Assembly are conning the very people who desperately need a transplant into thinking that their salvation has arrived when it has not.
The body parts that the Welsh Assembly can steal are: kidneys, heart, liver, lungs, pancreas, the small bowel, corneas and sclera (from the eyes), valves and pericardium (from the heart), skin, bone, tendons and cartilage.
Some families I reckon will be given a doggy bag of bits back to bury which certainly happened in many of the Alder Hey cases.

Report this post »

Antigone12 says...
12:54pm Wed 15 Aug 12

Mervyn James and Papa make good points. Not everyone in Wales requiring a transplant will be a suitable match for the cadaver organs, so the organs will be sent to other parts of the UK. In regards to my point about a lack of resources, other transplant units across the UK are also seriously under-funded, therefore some transplants will simply not be able to go ahead (anywhere). Some doctors across the UK have already voiced their concerns about this. If there are not enough resources to carry out transplants the organs will have to be incinerated or utilized in some other way, e.g. used in medical research or sold. All this reeks of greed, profit and privatization.

Report this post »

username2 says...
2:24pm Wed 15 Aug 12

nolongergullible, I presume you've now realised that this is not the arena for rational, intelligent thinking. You do of course make reasoned, perceptive points, however these message boards are only for emotive, irrational rants.

(And PS, I do have a donor card, because I can't think of one reason why my body should rot when it could help someone else.)

Report this post »

Howie' says...
5:07pm Wed 15 Aug 12

papa wrote:
nolongergullible wrote:
You should not make assumptions. However, you do make my point for me. Unlesss body parts are preserved they will rot. The bodies returned to the families are now rotting in the earth or reduced to ash. Emotional rubbish such that you write is not helpful to a reasoned discussion.
Nobody would want one part you thats for certain not even the trash man.
Well Papa you certainly don't like it when people do not share your views do you?

I really do not understand the passion on this subject and think a lot of it is quite silly. Papa has had a previous problem with the NHS is understandably emotive but it does not make a good and reasoned debate when you are emotional.

If and when I die the NHS will be welcome to have any part of my body from the hair on my head to my toe nails if it will help someone after my death, none of it then will be of any use to me or anyone else.

What I would like to see brought in as part of this legislation is a clause that says anyone who wishes to opt out will never be the recipient of someones organ, after all if you wish to take your organs with you to be turned in to dust in the Crem or to rot in the Cemetery rather than helping another person then I would not want you to have mine.
Having said that a lot that back the opt out will be the first to start screaming about their right to have a transplant for themselves, son or daughter.....hypocri
tes.

Trying to educate people to carry a donor card has been tried and does not work like most voluntary schemes, it require legislation.

PS, Yes I have carried a card for many years as does my wife and adult children. I'm also a regular blood donor, wonder how many of the opt out brigade do that but would be happy to have my blood if they or their family's needed it?

Report this post »

papa says...
6:16pm Wed 15 Aug 12

Obviously the people who are stressing that those against this bill are on an emotional crusade are talking through their bums. Nobody especially myself is any way against organ donation. far from it but it has to be voluntary not compulsory and in the future it WILL bring a lot of grief and pain to many families as it is now doing with the families of the soldiers. I assume then nolongergullible, username2 and howie have never and have no intention of attending a close family members funeral as it may be "too emotional" when they get burnt or dug into the ground and we mustn't have that must we.
However I do admire you and your family members for carrying a donor card and that is the way it should be. As for myself because of certain health problems very little if any of my body could be used, my blood was refused many years ago and I am also likely to be in line for a transplant in the future and if so it won't change my views.
I have met quite a number of people who had a transplant or are waiting for one and guess what, they never carried a donor card before, yet now want this bill to be passed, more hypocrites!
As I say, if you got anything to say about this subject then write a letter to the Argus for publishing and get the debate out into the open which is exactly what the Welsh Assembly don't want and neither do they want a referendum on the subject because they know it will defeated.

Report this post »

username2 says...
6:43pm Wed 15 Aug 12

Howie you've restored my faith in these message boards. It's a relief to see reason triumph over emotion now and again.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
7:13pm Wed 15 Aug 12

username2 wrote:
nolongergullible, I presume you've now realised that this is not the arena for rational, intelligent thinking. You do of course make reasoned, perceptive points, however these message boards are only for emotive, irrational rants.

(And PS, I do have a donor card, because I can't think of one reason why my body should rot when it could help someone else.)
It is not an emotional rant to question a very serious law change that is attempting to remove the rights over your own body. As for YOUR attempt at 'emotional blackmail' (I can't think of any reason why my body should rot etc..." !

As you are going to donate anyway the topic is NOT about what you think, and as you have got a donor card already so don't NEED legislation made, it is about those who are either undecided or may choose to not donate at all.

We are being ASKED to discuss this issue, (Much as people like you would prefer to shut us up). Our choice may well mean yes our organs can 'rot' if we so choose. It is no business of anyone else's if we do.

Report this post »

Antigone12 says...
8:49pm Wed 15 Aug 12

There is another issue to consider when discussing a proposed opt-out system. We now live in a very multi-cultural Wales, so not every individual or cultural group will have the same attitudes towards death and organ donation. Some people believe that their body belongs to God and not them. Therefore, their body must not be defaced, but returned to God in a complete a state as possible. It must return in the state that it was given to them. Also, some religious groups, e.g some Orthodox Jews do not view brain death (when the organs are taken) as true death. Therefore, organ donation by some individuals/groups may be viewed as murder.

The issue of organ donation is a very difficult one. I carry a donor card and can understand why some people feel that organs should be donated rather than left to decay. However, we must understand that for some people the issue of donation is not just a physical issue, but a spiritual one.

I think we can agree that organ donation is a very complicated issue, and ALL aspects of a proposed opt-out system need to be thoroughly
discussed.

Report this post »

papa says...
9:07pm Wed 15 Aug 12

Have to agree entirely with Mervyn's views.
The tragedy of this is those that need a transplant and think this bill is their salvation will probably die without a Welsh donated organ being offered or for that matter any organ being offered. I have a young friend now aged 28 that has had recently multiple transplants in one operation, five major organs and although this was about 18 months ago, she is now back home and doing well.
Now myself and others here would never deny anyone the right of a transplant, I/we would encourage everyone to carry a donor card something that legislation will never do and would increase the opposition to it if the bill is passed.
Now what happens to all the organs taken that are not used? I will tell you, they will be stored in the hospitals along with the 10's of thousands that are already stored there for no other reason than a trophy room. Any person that went through a post mortem for many decades in the past, their body parts are still stored in the hospitals, not given a decent funeral or allowed to rot and decay. It takes about two/three weeks to prepare organs for examination and in that time, the body has been buried by the family unknowingly that the body is not complete.

Report this post »

Radio Wales says...
12:54pm Thu 16 Aug 12

I don't suppose anyone really cares what happens to their body once they have finished with it, however, given the level of deceit present in government these days I imaging a lot of people would worry about the fine line between voluntary recycling and compulsory sacrifice.
I shrink from the thought that someone with the necessary wonga could persuade doctors to decide they need my heart more than I do - like they can do with with my land already.

Report this post »

Mervyn James says...
5:49pm Sun 19 Aug 12

Perhaps they can follow the American dream model ? if they want organs PAY for them. Americans sell blood, kidneys and all sorts for money. However, this led to desperately poor and vulnerable being conned into terminal bad health. The Welsh way they legislate you to bad health.

Report this post »

click2find

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree