Welsh is a waste of money (From South Wales Argus)

Mervyn James says...
4:33pm Thu 4 Oct 12

Voting for the police supremo is a complete waste of time. Welsh voters vote only with their feet (To the statistic that 76% stay in bed or watch TV instead), it's why we get idiots and coalitions in. I also think those that consistently attack welsh need to change the record, let us Attack Hindi/Urdu/Polish/Be
ngali as well chwarae teg. People who cannot speak English should not be in wakes... heaven forbid welsh people do.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
4:36pm Thu 4 Oct 12

Merv James - Good thinking Batman!

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Mervyn James says...
4:43pm Thu 4 Oct 12

Shouldn't be rising to the bait really, it is impossible to reason with bigots, ooops ! (well if Cleggy can get away with it why can't I...).

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
4:50pm Thu 4 Oct 12

mErv James - Who's a bigot?

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Riley2012 says...
9:24pm Thu 4 Oct 12

Never mind all the trees they use for the extra paper, and the extra weight the poor old postie has to lump around, think about all the metal and extra road sign's to force this on us, it should be in English, in welsh all it does is cost us tax payer money that can be well spent on something a lot more worthwhile.

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Mervyn James says...
8:27am Fri 5 Oct 12

It all provides work for someone.... What is more worthwhile than celebrating who we are ? If we lived in the USA, there would be theme parks, conventions, classes, and a TV station or 3 for it, it is because the UK denigrates its own history and those who made it, There are still overtones of the welsh 'NOT' being used here after 100s of years. For the ignorant, this was a system used by English incomers to drive the welsh language out by hanging a sign around welsh children's necks in school to shame them for speaking welsh and not English, and to refuse jobs to them. Today the English attack still goes on, more power to those welsh-speaking for surviving despite all of that. Keep up the discrimination it adds more power to their elbow to fight it.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
8:35am Fri 5 Oct 12

Merv James. - What a load of tosh. I think you have been watching the TV programme aboiut History of Wales. Whether you like it or not 99% of people in Wales use English. Great for culture but in the BIGGER world, engklish is the one. In may countries they have never heard of Wales!

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Samantha22 says...
10:26am Fri 5 Oct 12

Welsh is not a waste of time, paper, or money….It is the official language of Wales and has equal status as English. Welsh has been spoken continuously in Wales throughout recorded history and is still widely spoken in Wales today more than 740,500 as estimated from 2008 Speak welsh and will be interesting to find out what the exact number is from the 2012 census. As for the “BIGGER WORLD” Many people in Argentina, America, USA, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Italy, and many more. All are countries with people who can speak Welsh due to their heritage, culture, and ancestry past! Also many places especially in America has welsh place names. This should be something to b proud of our Welsh Language. You have to bare in mind that it’s a language that has survived over thousands of years so why not keep it going. Just because your not in an environment that doesn’t speak welsh because YOU DON’T, doesn’t mean that NO-ONE does!

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
10:33am Fri 5 Oct 12

Samantha - nice try but is Welsh really the national language? I don't hear anyone in Newport speaking it. Everything you say is all cultural, nothing else. Nobody is knocking how wonderful that is, but I can't see the sri Lankan's at my local shop responding to anyone coming in and asking for Bara cws.
Your relation to Welsh who have emigrated over the decades applies to any country in the world and so ius irrelevant. The nationbal and more widely spoken is English.!!

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Mervyn James says...
5:00pm Fri 5 Oct 12

Regardless if you don't speak welsh or know it, is hardly validation for the relentless attacks on it. That is discrimination on a culture. Actually illegal in the UK. It is a pity this law isn't applied in defence of the welsh-speaker instead of bolstering the anti-welsh sector of little-Englanders...
.. Can we not even be bi-lingual without all these attacks ? seems no we can't. Welsh is the natural language of welsh-speakers in Wales, you don't get any more validation than that. Nor do you need it..

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
5:32pm Fri 5 Oct 12

Merv James - this is not a relentless attack on Welsh. Its a commmon sense view on the waste of money on letters etc. Added to that in Welsh Assembly, is the ridiculous costs of translation for a very few people.

Be bi-lingual by all means with who i don't know. It aint in Newport.

I am as Welsh as anyone, and speak Welsh a little, but the waste of money for 0.5% of the population is criminal.

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Mervyn James says...
6:47pm Fri 5 Oct 12

You cannot put a price on culture, or, on equality, which is exactly what some are trying to justify. Did you not read the recent outrage regarding the 100s of thousands of pounds our local authorities and 999 services HAVE to spend on translators every year ? Nobody seems to want to object to that on any numerical basis, so why Welsh ? why is no-one outraged deaf people in Wales are unsupported via their sign language needs ? Because they aren't strong enough to lobby for it ? or because they are 'too small a minority' to bother with giving them the most basic access they need ?

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
6:58pm Fri 5 Oct 12

merv james - all valid points and all minorities suffer because of lack of clout. This has no relevance to the waste of cash for idiotic dual froms etc. What the hell do we need them for? Most chuck them in the bin.

Nothing wrong with the culture - waving cymbals about and welsh cakes etc, but get a grip!

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richie55 says...
10:13am Sat 6 Oct 12

I was born and bred in Wales and have lived here all my 57 years. I do not know ANYONE who speaks Welsh. If people want to learn the language, let them get on with it, just dont expect the rest of us to support and pay for it.

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Samantha22 says...
11:07am Sat 6 Oct 12

There are thousands of people who actually speak Welsh in Wales...I'm being one of them. I went to an English school about 10-15mins away from Newport! Learnt Welsh through gcse & A-Level and now in my last year of uni finishing my Welsh degree! I know many people who are from Newport and surrounding areas that DO speak Welsh. Yes i admit its not a huge number of people that do speak the language due to the industrial revolution. But fact of the matter is that Welsh is The OFFICAL LANGUAGE of the country as ENGLISH IS! We live in a bilingual society therefore Welsh has equal status as the English language, and by LAW!!! According to "deddf yr iaith Cymraeg" (The Welsh language act) The Welsh language is here to stay and there's nothing any of your opinions can do or say about that! Sorry guys!

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
11:15am Sat 6 Oct 12

samantha.- noithing to be sorry about. I guessed you one of those neo-Welshies. I guess also you are going for a job in BBC Wales as they need Welsh. It may be ONE of our official languages but ENGLISH is the dominant.

Wales has about 3m population and very few speak it. And in Newport i bet they don't walk in the shops and gob off in Welsh. I will agree that those who went to Welsh schools are privileged.

BUT Samantha it doesn't change the fact that the dueal forms etc is a complete and OTT waste of cash. How can you deny it. Good for the re-cycling bin though.

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Mervyn James says...
11:34am Sat 6 Oct 12

Migrants get it in welsh and english too, for many of them neither is a first language. Animately there are more of them than us ! Nobody can stop me banging a drum for any minority I choose, as Samantha pointed out it is LAW, get over it.... If you want to save money, I can put you in touch with many areas and people who can enlighten you on how to do that. Minority cultures have rights written int e statute, just because you aren't one of them is barely excuse for the virtual hate attacks that go on there, it is penalising welsh people for speaking their own language. Few people in Newport speak basic ENGLISH, let alone Welsh ! Bi-linguality to them is gay Irishman.....

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Samantha22 says...
11:37am Sat 6 Oct 12

Yes English is the dominant language. But the forms are there for people who can speak both. The Welsh language is growing again especially amongst the younger generation. The Welsh assembly are only trying to promote the fact that we are a bilingual country. There are groups out there like menter iaith, Cymraeg i oedolion (welsh 4 adults) trying to encourage people to use the language more. Surely if they only had English on the forms people wouldn't bother learning it and our welsh language would just die out. As to waste of money etc there are loads of things the government waste money on, so why pick on this alone?

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
11:39am Sat 6 Oct 12

Samantha'Merv james - You are both so beleagued by theis Wesl stuff you can't see common sense.
PEOOPLE SPEAK ENGLISH MORE THAN WELSH IN WALES AND HAVING DUAL FORMS IS A WASTE OF MONEY FOR ABSOLUTE NOTHING. Do you understand?

Got nothing to do with other minorities which you seem obssessed with raising.

And by the way, i never voted for thw ASSembly which is another waste of moneyt for such a small population.

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Samantha22 says...
11:47am Sat 6 Oct 12

Well what ever we think or believe in the fact of the matter is our country is the way it is. It's the law that we have bilingual signs letters etc waste of money or not! That's the way it is and no1s opinions is going to change that. Neither of us are going to agree. So we'll leave it as agree to disagree :)

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
11:52am Sat 6 Oct 12

Samantha - keep up the Welsh but i am afraid you are in the minority. I Love the Welsh signs but the letters....phew! As they say 'The law is an ****!'

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Llanmartinangel says...
3:26pm Sat 6 Oct 12

The hypocrisy of banning 'wasteful' carrier bags and then printing every official document twice, by law, knowing that more than 75% of people put the Welsh copy straight into landfill is frankly ludicrous. Spending vast amounts on subsidies to education, S4C, doubling bureaucracy and road signs in cash strapped times when the health service in Wales is a joke just piles stupidity on top. The language fascists should get real.

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welshmen says...
8:53pm Sat 6 Oct 12

If it wasn't for our English friends we would all be speaking WELSH, Stupid is what stupid was, now our children have the opportunity to learn WELSH we never did, as far as immigrants go they have leaflets printed in Hindi, Polish, Bengali,Pakistani and every other mother tongue that come to our little country, if it's money that could be needed for the NHS i would suggest we stop treating the WORLD for nothing, it costs Millions to treat foreigners, also the immigrants here sending medication back home for there family and friends, And the fascists accuser Llanmartinangel our Soldiers "GOT REAL" in many wars to stop people telling us how to live OUR lives, we are also Celts same as the Irish, Scots and some people in Cornwall, be proud try and speak Welsh because that's where we LIVE...

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Llanmartinangel says...
10:30pm Sat 6 Oct 12

An object lesson in choosing to miss the point entirely. 1. ANY waste is waste, doing more of it doesn't justify it. 2. No one is telling you how to live your life, the Welsh speaking minority foist their views on the ones who don't, and expect them to pay for it.

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
12:52am Sun 7 Oct 12

The emotive power of Cymraeg never ceases to amaze me. It turns people who've never given a moment's thought to the environment into rampant recyclers. It compels language activists to reach for their jackboots before embarking on their latest march. In a pub in deepest Gwynedd (you know the one I mean), its use alone has been known to send otherwise reasonable English monoglots insane, causing them to see plots against them in every conversation spoken in this barbarian tongue.

Really, guys, it's just some words on paper. We're not talking about any great expense, and neither is the language being forced down anyone's throat, to use that clichéd phrase. Calling anyone a "language fascist" for daring to produce bilingual forms and leaflets is so absurd it boggles the mind; can't we all just get along?

If we're to produce a truly bilingual society in Wales, then those individuals who use Welsh as a first language must be given every opportunity to use the language. Anything less diminishes the value of Welsh as a language of public life with respect to English. If that were the case, then in the long run we would be dooming Welsh to extinction, as the great experiment called the twentieth century so richly illustrated. I am not sure why more public bodies don't simply ask which language you want future correspondence in, but until more of them catch on, is it really such a hardship to have a few words of Welsh pushed through your letterbox in the morning?

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
1:34am Sun 7 Oct 12

kaiser macleg - Yes it is. You are yet another obsessed Welshie who cannot accept it is a waste of money. \DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ANNYONE READS IT? You lot want to get real and stop forcing your views.

Anyway who wants to produce a bilingual society with Welsh language? Can you really see people walking around the shops in Newport or Cwmbran and Pontypool babbling-on in Welsh. You lot are living in a pipe dream.

And again the cost of asking individuals (some 3m) if they want the stuff in writing would be another waste. don't send in the first place is the simple answer which would have a big effect on recycling costs.

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Llanmartinangel says...
7:25am Sun 7 Oct 12

It isn't just the cost of the paper is it. It's the cost of the industry creating it. Doesn't the W Assembly have a 'Welsh Language Tsar'? It's waste because it won't stop the descent of the language into an anachronism. Wales is a small place where satellite TV, the Internet and exposure to travel will advantage English to the young. At the moment you can have bilingual aisles in Tesco but all the food packaging Odin errr....English.

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Bobevans says...
8:42am Sun 7 Oct 12

I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred

There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh.

With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one.

The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs

If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales

We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere

WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world.

WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK

Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU

If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially

FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs.

I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh. With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one. The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world. WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs. Bobevans

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Bobevans says...
8:45am Sun 7 Oct 12

Mervyn James wrote:
You cannot put a price on culture, or, on equality, which is exactly what some are trying to justify. Did you not read the recent outrage regarding the 100s of thousands of pounds our local authorities and 999 services HAVE to spend on translators every year ? Nobody seems to want to object to that on any numerical basis, so why Welsh ? why is no-one outraged deaf people in Wales are unsupported via their sign language needs ? Because they aren't strong enough to lobby for it ? or because they are 'too small a minority' to bother with giving them the most basic access they need ?

Then dont blame anyone else if jobs are scarce in Wales as the cost have an invluence on where companies locate.

It is perhaps not suprising that most jobs in Wales are public sector and service type jobs. Jobs which in general have to be located in Wales other jobs which have more of a choice as to where to locate do not choose Wales.

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Llanmartinangel says...
9:29am Sun 7 Oct 12

Good point Bob. The 500k to translate the WA for the five people who asked for it took 2 million man hours to earn at minimum wage. Are the language fascists still going to shout 'price worth paying for culture'? Yep, thought so.

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Cymru Am Beth says...
9:37am Sun 7 Oct 12

I don't speak Welsh, but I understand the cultural implications if we were to lose the language.
A culture is defined by its language and Wales is no exception to this.
However, I do agree that printing everything in Welsh along with the English, is wasteful and excessive.
I have to sit on the fence with regard to this.

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Llanmartinangel says...
9:59am Sun 7 Oct 12

Errr you're sitting on the fence? Is that a null post then? I haven't seen anyone denying people their chosen culture, the debate here is who pays and when is it too much, given the constrained finances and already over-burdened tax payers. And that's leaving aside the unanswered chestnut of the hypocrisy of banning carrier bags but paying people to translate and produce tons of paper which heads directly to the landfill unread. That landfill by the way, is also taxed.

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Samantha22 says...
10:38am Sun 7 Oct 12

Waste of TAX payers money? What about everything else we pay tax for? 50% on petrol tax. Tax we are paying so people who are too lazy to get a job. We're paying them to sit around! Tax to help out family's/ teenagers with children. Tax for all the imagrants in OUR country??? What about all of this. You can't slate the welsh language alone for being a waste of money when u compare it to everything else! We pay tax for everything welsh language included as we live in Wales. Don't like it move to England!

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
10:45am Sun 7 Oct 12

samantha - you are still not accepting the point. - It is still (and will be) a small language compared with English which is international. Great for culture but nothing else. Use on forms AND WAG translations are not needed at all. It makes a joke of the country.

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Mervyn James says...
11:04am Sun 7 Oct 12

Kaiser MacCleg wrote:
The emotive power of Cymraeg never ceases to amaze me. It turns people who've never given a moment's thought to the environment into rampant recyclers. It compels language activists to reach for their jackboots before embarking on their latest march. In a pub in deepest Gwynedd (you know the one I mean), its use alone has been known to send otherwise reasonable English monoglots insane, causing them to see plots against them in every conversation spoken in this barbarian tongue.

Really, guys, it's just some words on paper. We're not talking about any great expense, and neither is the language being forced down anyone's throat, to use that clichéd phrase. Calling anyone a "language fascist" for daring to produce bilingual forms and leaflets is so absurd it boggles the mind; can't we all just get along?

If we're to produce a truly bilingual society in Wales, then those individuals who use Welsh as a first language must be given every opportunity to use the language. Anything less diminishes the value of Welsh as a language of public life with respect to English. If that were the case, then in the long run we would be dooming Welsh to extinction, as the great experiment called the twentieth century so richly illustrated. I am not sure why more public bodies don't simply ask which language you want future correspondence in, but until more of them catch on, is it really such a hardship to have a few words of Welsh pushed through your letterbox in the morning?

Quite. The rhetoric of 'Language fascism' and 'Welshies' went beyond a complaint about bi-lingual bumpf to an direct attack on the welsh language and its supporters. Which was let's face it the point of the response by these people. I think any leaning toward language fascism is coming from there. If the same rhetoric was used at other minorities in Wales these people would find themselves in court, it is always an conundrum the law is indeed an ****, and a biased one at that. Live and let live ? just words isn't it.

[quote][p][bold]Kaiser MacCleg[/bold] wrote: The emotive power of Cymraeg never ceases to amaze me. It turns people who've never given a moment's thought to the environment into rampant recyclers. It compels language activists to reach for their jackboots before embarking on their latest march. In a pub in deepest Gwynedd (you know the one I mean), its use alone has been known to send otherwise reasonable English monoglots insane, causing them to see plots against them in every conversation spoken in this barbarian tongue. Really, guys, it's just some words on paper. We're not talking about any great expense, and neither is the language being forced down anyone's throat, to use that clichéd phrase. Calling anyone a "language fascist" for daring to produce bilingual forms and leaflets is so absurd it boggles the mind; can't we all just get along? If we're to produce a truly bilingual society in Wales, then those individuals who use Welsh as a first language must be given every opportunity to use the language. Anything less diminishes the value of Welsh as a language of public life with respect to English. If that were the case, then in the long run we would be dooming Welsh to extinction, as the great experiment called the twentieth century so richly illustrated. I am not sure why more public bodies don't simply ask which language you want future correspondence in, but until more of them catch on, is it really such a hardship to have a few words of Welsh pushed through your letterbox in the morning?[/p][/quote]Quite. The rhetoric of 'Language fascism' and 'Welshies' went beyond a complaint about bi-lingual bumpf to an direct attack on the welsh language and its supporters. Which was let's face it the point of the response by these people. I think any leaning toward language fascism is coming from there. If the same rhetoric was used at other minorities in Wales these people would find themselves in court, it is always an conundrum the law is indeed an ****, and a biased one at that. Live and let live ? just words isn't it. Mervyn James

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
11:09am Sun 7 Oct 12

Merv James. Dear me. You still don't accept its dual use in forms is a complete, nonsensical joke. Forget about this law pifle and other minorities, stick to the point which is a waste of money for a very small percentage who probably read the english versions anyway. Utter nonsense!

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Llanmartinangel says...
11:18am Sun 7 Oct 12

In some respects I agree with Samantha in that there are loads of wasteful drains on the public purse, including those she cites. However, this is a debate about one in particular, the cost of bilingualism and whether it's worth it. In some respects, a good point has been made above. Since people will soon have to opt out of organ donation with a once-and-for-all registration, why can't people make a similar choice for which language they'd like their correspondence in? It's win-win. Much less waste, less cost and one more annoyance fixed.

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Dee-Gee says...
12:32pm Sun 7 Oct 12

"Why can't people make a similar choice for which language they'd like their correspondence in?"

3 cheers for common sense!

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
1:35pm Sun 7 Oct 12

james.dyer7@ntlworld
.com wrote:
kaiser macleg - Yes it is. You are yet another obsessed Welshie who cannot accept it is a waste of money. \DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ANNYONE READS IT? You lot want to get real and stop forcing your views.

Anyway who wants to produce a bilingual society with Welsh language? Can you really see people walking around the shops in Newport or Cwmbran and Pontypool babbling-on in Welsh. You lot are living in a pipe dream.

And again the cost of asking individuals (some 3m) if they want the stuff in writing would be another waste. don't send in the first place is the simple answer which would have a big effect on recycling costs.

James, can you please respond in future without turning your post into a personal attack? It does not reflect well on you.

"DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ANNYONE READS IT?"

To my knowledge no figures exist to answer that question precisely, but a ballpark figure can be reached through the use of the WLB's Welsh Language Use Survey of 2004. The results showed that 57% of the 611,000 Welsh speakers in Wales at the time considered themselves fluent (315,000). Of these, 88%, or 277,200, said they use Welsh daily. It is probably safe to suggest that the Welsh translations of everyday forms and letters see a lot of use within this demographic, so I would suggest that the above figure is not a bad starting point. Of course, it does not accurately reflect the level of use Welsh language translations would see - I myself am an example of this. I consider myself fluent in Welsh, but I am in an area and an environment which does not allow me to get much use out of my Welsh. As a consequence, I will often fill out the Welsh version of a form, because otherwise I get very little exposure to the language! Regardless, I do not consider providing services in Welsh to those who would speak it a waste of money.

"Can you really see people walking around the shops in Newport or Cwmbran and Pontypool babbling-on in Welsh."

Well, yes, actually - I've seen it happen in the past. But that's besides the point. I think you've misunderstood the concept of a bilingual society. A bilingual society does not necessarily mean that everyone within said society can speak two languages; if that's even possible in Wales it's a long way off so you're quite welcome to call it a "pipe dream". A bilingual society is a society wherein two languages can be used in any walk of life without discrimination or lack of services stymieing an individual's desire to use one language or the other. That is what is required if Welsh is going to survive in the long run, and thankfully, that is what we're working towards at present.

"And again the cost of asking individuals (some 3m) if they want the stuff in writing would be another waste"

So, in conclusion, you're saying that it's a waste of money to produce Welsh language correspondence for those who don't need it (I agree), AND that it's a waste of money to simply ask people what language they would like correspondence in in the future, even when all that is required is a checkbox and a nice excel spreadsheet to keep things in order (I don't agree at all). Can it be that you to deprive Welsh speakers the chance to use Welsh in all official correspondence?

[quote][p][bold]james.dyer7@ntlworld .com[/bold] wrote: kaiser macleg - Yes it is. You are yet another obsessed Welshie who cannot accept it is a waste of money. \DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ANNYONE READS IT? You lot want to get real and stop forcing your views. Anyway who wants to produce a bilingual society with Welsh language? Can you really see people walking around the shops in Newport or Cwmbran and Pontypool babbling-on in Welsh. You lot are living in a pipe dream. And again the cost of asking individuals (some 3m) if they want the stuff in writing would be another waste. don't send in the first place is the simple answer which would have a big effect on recycling costs.[/p][/quote]James, can you please respond in future without turning your post into a personal attack? It does not reflect well on you. "DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT ANNYONE READS IT?" To my knowledge no figures exist to answer that question precisely, but a ballpark figure can be reached through the use of the WLB's Welsh Language Use Survey of 2004. The results showed that 57% of the 611,000 Welsh speakers in Wales at the time considered themselves fluent (315,000). Of these, 88%, or 277,200, said they use Welsh daily. It is probably safe to suggest that the Welsh translations of everyday forms and letters see a lot of use within this demographic, so I would suggest that the above figure is not a bad starting point. Of course, it does not accurately reflect the level of use Welsh language translations would see - I myself am an example of this. I consider myself fluent in Welsh, but I am in an area and an environment which does not allow me to get much use out of my Welsh. As a consequence, I will often fill out the Welsh version of a form, because otherwise I get very little exposure to the language! Regardless, I do not consider providing services in Welsh to those who would speak it a waste of money. "Can you really see people walking around the shops in Newport or Cwmbran and Pontypool babbling-on in Welsh." Well, yes, actually - I've seen it happen in the past. But that's besides the point. I think you've misunderstood the concept of a bilingual society. A bilingual society does not necessarily mean that everyone within said society can speak two languages; if that's even possible in Wales it's a long way off so you're quite welcome to call it a "pipe dream". A bilingual society is a society wherein two languages can be used in any walk of life without discrimination or lack of services stymieing an individual's desire to use one language or the other. That is what is required if Welsh is going to survive in the long run, and thankfully, that is what we're working towards at present. "And again the cost of asking individuals (some 3m) if they want the stuff in writing would be another waste" So, in conclusion, you're saying that it's a waste of money to produce Welsh language correspondence for those who don't need it (I agree), AND that it's a waste of money to simply ask people what language they would like correspondence in in the future, even when all that is required is a checkbox and a nice excel spreadsheet to keep things in order (I don't agree at all). Can it be that you to deprive Welsh speakers the chance to use Welsh in all official correspondence? Kaiser MacCleg

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
2:00pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Kaiser Mac - Sorry but you came across as such. A lot to answer there. Considering that welsh speakers can mainly speak English, and english speakers in the main can't speak Welsh, it is reasonablke to assume that bilingual forms are a waste. To provide such a facility for the odd few is ridic.

I can read (and speak the odd Welsh words.like many others. I am sure that many of them have ticked the boxes on the Census form. So i doubt the efficacy of your figures.

You must know some solid Welsh enclaves in Newport and the Valley's because in my 60+ years i have only ever heard the Cockle woman from Swansea speaking it.
So Kaiser, why don't you use soemething like Ap Welsh instead of German?

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
2:09pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Bobevans wrote:
I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred

There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh.

With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one.

The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs

If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales

We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere

WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world.

WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK

Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU

If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially

FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs.

@ Bobevans;

"There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales."

Source please.

"THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh."

Source please. You've actually underestimated the cost of the translation service for the Welsh Assembly - the response to an FOI request earlier this year clearly outlined the cost for the past four years, with the cost in 2010/11 being £707,718. I'd be interested to hear where you found the figure for the number of people who've actually made use of the service (I take it you're talking about requesting written transcripts?).

Incidentally, £707,718 is 0.000048% of the current Welsh budget.

"With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research."

Please provide a link to the peer-reviewed scientific paper which confirms this. A report by Transport Scotland and TRL, just published this August, found that;

"while there is reasonable evidence to infer bilingual signs increase the demand of the driving task, drivers appear able to absorb this extra demand, or negate it by slowing down, which ultimately results in no detectable change in accident rates."

Interestingly, the report is described by Transport Scotland as the first detailed research ever conducted on the topic, so again, I'm interested to see this "research" you've cited.

"The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate"

Please provide some evidence to back up this spurious claim.

Really, Bob, if you're going to make such grand claims about the state of the Welsh economy being down to the Welsh language, you need to provide some evidence if you want rational-minded people to take you seriously.

[quote][p][bold]Bobevans[/bold] wrote: I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh. With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one. The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world. WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs.[/p][/quote]@ Bobevans; "There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales." Source please. "THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh." Source please. You've actually underestimated the cost of the translation service for the Welsh Assembly - the response to an FOI request earlier this year clearly outlined the cost for the past four years, with the cost in 2010/11 being £707,718. I'd be interested to hear where you found the figure for the number of people who've actually made use of the service (I take it you're talking about requesting written transcripts?). Incidentally, £707,718 is 0.000048% of the current Welsh budget. "With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research." Please provide a link to the peer-reviewed scientific paper which confirms this. A report by Transport Scotland and TRL, just published this August, found that; "[i]while there is reasonable evidence to infer bilingual signs increase the demand of the driving task, drivers appear able to absorb this extra demand, or negate it by slowing down, which ultimately results in no detectable change in accident rates.[/i]" Interestingly, the report is described by Transport Scotland as the first detailed research ever conducted on the topic, so again, I'm interested to see this "research" you've cited. "The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate" Please provide some evidence to back up this spurious claim. Really, Bob, if you're going to make such grand claims about the state of the Welsh economy being down to the Welsh language, you need to provide some evidence if you want rational-minded people to take you seriously. Kaiser MacCleg

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
2:26pm Sun 7 Oct 12

james.dyer7@ntlworld
.com wrote:
Kaiser Mac - Sorry but you came across as such. A lot to answer there. Considering that welsh speakers can mainly speak English, and english speakers in the main can't speak Welsh, it is reasonablke to assume that bilingual forms are a waste. To provide such a facility for the odd few is ridic.

I can read (and speak the odd Welsh words.like many others. I am sure that many of them have ticked the boxes on the Census form. So i doubt the efficacy of your figures.

You must know some solid Welsh enclaves in Newport and the Valley's because in my 60+ years i have only ever heard the Cockle woman from Swansea speaking it.
So Kaiser, why don't you use soemething like Ap Welsh instead of German?

"Considering that welsh speakers can mainly speak English, and english speakers in the main can't speak Welsh, it is reasonablke to assume that bilingual forms are a waste."

It is only a waste if you do not value an individual's right to choose which language (s)he wishes to use, and do not mind seeing the continued decline of the Welsh language in Wales and the loss to our culture that this would entail. I would suggest, or at least like to believe, that the majority of those living in Wales do not hold such views.

"I am sure that many of them have ticked the boxes on the Census form. So i doubt the efficacy of your figures."

A point that only would have been relevant had I used the census figures. I did not. I used figures from the WLB's Welsh language use survey, which can be found here:

http://www2.ku.edu/~
idrh/cgi-bin/wordpre
ss/wp-content/upload
s/Welsh-Survey-Repor
t-041.pdf

"So Kaiser, why don't you use soemething like Ap Welsh instead of German?"

I could, but Kaiser MacCleg has a certain ring to it, don't you think? ;)

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
3:06pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Kaiser - Fala moleem. Karco sta? Anyway, enough of Serbo/Croat..... Still doubt those figures, snd generally the WLB is not going to say otherwise. Another quango - many of which Cameron said he was going to get rid of.

As for the forms, yes i would print only in English which i don't see as in any way is taking away a few people's rights.(? That's a laugh!

These forms have nothing to do with Welsh culture which i wholly applaud. It is about commoin sense.

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
3:51pm Sun 7 Oct 12

james.dyer7@ntlworld
.com wrote:
Kaiser - Fala moleem. Karco sta? Anyway, enough of Serbo/Croat..... Still doubt those figures, snd generally the WLB is not going to say otherwise. Another quango - many of which Cameron said he was going to get rid of.

As for the forms, yes i would print only in English which i don't see as in any way is taking away a few people's rights.(? That's a laugh!

These forms have nothing to do with Welsh culture which i wholly applaud. It is about commoin sense.

"Still doubt those figures"

Any particular reason why?

"Another quango - many of which Cameron said he was going to get rid of."

If Cameron were to try and get rid of the WLB, he'd be a bit behind on events. You are aware that it was dissolved in March of this year?

"As for the forms, yes i would print only in English which i don't see as in any way is taking away a few people's rights."

Then obviously you are unfamiliar with the legislation surrounding the issue. The European Charter for Regional and Minority language (Google it), to which the UK is fully signed up and which provides protection for the Welsh language and dozens more, describes the right to use the language of one's choosing as:

"an inalienable right conforming to the principles embodied in the United Nations International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and according to the spirit of the Council of Europe Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms"

"It is about commoin sense."

Common sense is recycling those Welsh forms of yours and not getting too worked up about them.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
4:11pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Kaiser - You and i will just see things differently. Recycling welsh forms is not the answer. Whether you like it or not it is a complete waste of cash. Take a referendum 0n it and see.

Have no truck with EU stuff, they have done enough damage. But given your quote that means ALL languages. In any case what have these forms got to do with protecting Welsh? Don't say its what we want cos it aint for the majority. In fact on your basis we can print duals of all ethnic groups in Wales and send to all 3m pop.

Yes i was aware the WLB has gone and i am not surprised.

Kaiser i have enjoyed the chats and don't worry i am not worked-up. Good to get people thinking eh.

Cazin1

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
4:14pm Sun 7 Oct 12

"Take a referendum on it and see"

I would be happy to.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
4:16pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Kaiser - U sure in the groove Jackson!

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ncfcr says...
4:46pm Sun 7 Oct 12

I completely agree. I just do not see how it is of any advantage.

My children are forced into learning Welsh phrases day in, day out, yet at the age of 4 cannot yet perform basic Maths tasks such as simple division and multiplication (not that I would expect them to just yet, but you see my point hopefully).

Welsh will only be of any use to you in very rural parts of Wales, so why bother unless you actually want to learn?

I would love to be able to speak it from a pride perspective, but I have never EVER needed to use it living in Wales my whole life.

If it is felt necessary to force a language down people's throats, then why not choose extra lessons of French, German or Spanish which will prove far more useful from an academic viewpoint, given the amount of people that speak these languages worldwide.

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Llanmartinangel says...
4:48pm Sun 7 Oct 12

So Kaiser. 315,000 are fluent in Welsh. Your figure so lets work with that. That leaves 90 (ish) % still being sent what they don't want/don't use. I guess the question is, which definition of the word ' waste' needs more articulating? On the subject of 'choice' (that enshrined right), where is my choice not to have the documentation I pay for in the English I would choose?

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
6:01pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Llanmartinangel, it would help if you would read through my posts more carefully. I have already said that sending bilingual correspondence to those who are unable to read Welsh is a waste. I agree with you on that. The problem is easily fixed, though, through simply introducing checkboxes on correspondence in both languages from public institutions, asking the readers which language they would prefer future correspondence in. My university has already introduced such a system, and as a consequence everything that comes through the postbox from them is in one language and one language only.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
6:06pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Kaiser - So your Uni got three replies asking for correspondence in Welsh! (Joke) Don't tell me, your a lecturer in Welsh.....

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
6:13pm Sun 7 Oct 12

No, Jim, no I'm not.

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Llanmartinangel says...
7:08pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Apologies Kaiser I had missed that. So we are agreed then; the democratic right to correspondence in our language of choice. Good. Anyone know where we can get an assembly that knows the word democratic without having to google it? Some of them needed instruction in how to ask questions, dress and sit at a table. That little extravagance cost £10k. And we pay AMs in the top 5% of salaries in Wales? There's value see. :-)

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
8:10pm Sun 7 Oct 12

Never mind there will be a new topic to debate this week.

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RobJ says...
1:51am Mon 8 Oct 12

I'm with Mervyn, it saddens me to see so many Welsh people bickering about the language. No wonder we were the first conquered nation.

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Dee-Gee says...
8:57am Mon 8 Oct 12

That was England, surely? 1066 and all that?

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Llanmartinangel says...
10:01am Mon 8 Oct 12

I think the Romans got to England AND Wales before that. We weren't bickering about the language Rob (at least I wasn't), rather the cost of propping it up in an illogical way in a time of better financial priorities.

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adrian simmonds says...
10:05am Mon 8 Oct 12

The point that's missed is that it's not the"majority" or even 99 % of people in Wales who speak English but 100%. The small minority who choose to speak Welsh on a daily basis - whilst having fluent English of course - should ask themselves:

How does getting my Council tax forms etc. in Welsh enhance my knowledge and appreciation of Welsh Culture? It's a red herring.
As for Urdu, etc. printing forms in so many languages merely encourages these "ethnic" minorities not to bother to learn decent English, which, with all due respect to Welsh and Scottish Gaelic speakers, is the unchallenged language of the United Kingdom.
I greatly doubt whether France and Germany print their official forms in anything but french and German respectively.

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Cwmderi says...
12:17pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Easy solution
Move George Street Bridge to the other side of the Servern Bridge.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
12:22pm Mon 8 Oct 12

cwmderi - don't understand/

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Owain Vaughan says...
1:02pm Mon 8 Oct 12

The easy solution is to repeal the Local Government Act 1972 that placed Newport and Monmouthshire in Wales!

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
1:09pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Really!!!! And what about the 95% of non-Welsh speakers all over Wales? - Like near the Cheshire/ Mersey border or the thousdands of English in @lttle England', Pembs.

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Owain Vaughan says...
1:55pm Mon 8 Oct 12

I was obviously being facetious, but if Monmouthshire was part of England again it wouldn't be our problem!

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
2:00pm Mon 8 Oct 12

ov - yes thought you were. Good point.

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Bobevans says...
3:08pm Mon 8 Oct 12

There is a lot of denial about the high costs of Welsh. There is no doubt at all that this costs are effecting jobs and pushing up prices in Wales

Only troday EON has warned that prices will have to go up in Wales to cover this costs

The warning was included in a leaked letter from E.ON.

The letter was part of its role in the recently-ended consultation on the exact standards the companies will have to meet.

In it, the firm says the higher costs of providing the new Welsh language services will be mirrored in price rises for all customers in Wales

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ohc says...
3:48pm Mon 8 Oct 12

We even get Welsh on public sector forms in England. Its 2013, someone in Wales needs to wake up and smell the coffee if South wales is to return to prosperity. They dont speak Welsh in China

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Llanmartinangel says...
4:46pm Mon 8 Oct 12

As long as everyone thinks the tax payer is a bottomless pit and every minority indulgence is worthy, however irrational and regardless of the price, then we are all finished.

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Mervyn James says...
5:35pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Then finished we are, as the laws on equality and human rights, recognises all minorities (Albeit highly unequally, as I tend to agree). if you want rid of welsh access, then the argument is there to rid ourselves of homosexuals, Ethnic minorities, the disabled, etc etc too. They are a minority and a 'drain' on resources and courts too with their 'pathetic' demands for equal rights, why should we support them.... In respect if ONLY bi-lingual print outs were dragging Wales down, we might find some area of give and take. Every minority are taxpayers, the people you attack are. So you are telling them as fellow tax payers they can't have the same rights as you do, because you aren't one of them. There are so many holes in the argument, that it all boils down to "I can't speak welsh so why bother with it..." That is the sole domain of migrants and ethnic minorities, NOT ours, that's the problem.

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Howie' says...
6:08pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Kaiser MacCleg wrote:

Bobevans wrote:
I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred

There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh.

With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one.

The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs

If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales

We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere

WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world.

WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK

Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU

If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially

FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs.
@ Bobevans;

"There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales."

Source please.

"THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh."

Source please. You've actually underestimated the cost of the translation service for the Welsh Assembly - the response to an FOI request earlier this year clearly outlined the cost for the past four years, with the cost in 2010/11 being £707,718. I'd be interested to hear where you found the figure for the number of people who've actually made use of the service (I take it you're talking about requesting written transcripts?).

Incidentally, £707,718 is 0.000048% of the current Welsh budget.

"With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research."

Please provide a link to the peer-reviewed scientific paper which confirms this. A report by Transport Scotland and TRL, just published this August, found that;

"while there is reasonable evidence to infer bilingual signs increase the demand of the driving task, drivers appear able to absorb this extra demand, or negate it by slowing down, which ultimately results in no detectable change in accident rates."

Interestingly, the report is described by Transport Scotland as the first detailed research ever conducted on the topic, so again, I'm interested to see this "research" you've cited.

"The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate"

Please provide some evidence to back up this spurious claim.

Really, Bob, if you're going to make such grand claims about the state of the Welsh economy being down to the Welsh language, you need to provide some evidence if you want rational-minded people to take you seriously.

Kaiser, you obviously have had little dealings with Bobby boy.............

1:Never ever, ever believe anything Bob posts especially when he quote's figures, statistics or data.

2: Do not waste your time asking Bob for sources or evidence to back them up as you will have a long wait.

[quote][p][bold]Kaiser MacCleg[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bobevans[/bold] wrote: I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh. With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one. The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world. WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs.[/p][/quote]@ Bobevans; "There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales." Source please. "THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh." Source please. You've actually underestimated the cost of the translation service for the Welsh Assembly - the response to an FOI request earlier this year clearly outlined the cost for the past four years, with the cost in 2010/11 being £707,718. I'd be interested to hear where you found the figure for the number of people who've actually made use of the service (I take it you're talking about requesting written transcripts?). Incidentally, £707,718 is 0.000048% of the current Welsh budget. "With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research." Please provide a link to the peer-reviewed scientific paper which confirms this. A report by Transport Scotland and TRL, just published this August, found that; "[i]while there is reasonable evidence to infer bilingual signs increase the demand of the driving task, drivers appear able to absorb this extra demand, or negate it by slowing down, which ultimately results in no detectable change in accident rates.[/i]" Interestingly, the report is described by Transport Scotland as the first detailed research ever conducted on the topic, so again, I'm interested to see this "research" you've cited. "The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate" Please provide some evidence to back up this spurious claim. Really, Bob, if you're going to make such grand claims about the state of the Welsh economy being down to the Welsh language, you need to provide some evidence if you want rational-minded people to take you seriously.[/p][/quote]Kaiser, you obviously have had little dealings with Bobby boy............. 1:Never ever, ever believe anything Bob posts especially when he quote's figures, statistics or data. 2: Do not waste your time asking Bob for sources or evidence to back them up as you will have a long wait. Howie'

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Llanmartinangel says...
6:09pm Mon 8 Oct 12

An interesting rant but again you miss the point. It comes down to scale and sustainability. If every minority interest is subsidised without a realistic view on price/outcome then by definition a tipping point is reached. Europeans have already reached the point where social programs are greater than GDP so something has to give. You then get into choosing what can and can't be supported. It seems there are a significant number like me, that would happily see Welsh sustained by the choice and participation of those who want it but thinking you can sign blank cheques forever is frankly deluded.

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Mervyn James says...
7:07pm Mon 8 Oct 12

You can't define access by numbers. You will find many areas will suffer via that demand, not least health and support. It is basically against the Human Rights Act. Either you want such an act or you don't, you are braver than I by stating rights should be supported only if x amount of people ask for it.

We are all equal, in law anyway, so to maintain that, means we do have to sign cheques to make it possible. Mainly because people that whinge here won't accept the welsh language has a right to exist. The point has to be hammered home.

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Llanmartinangel says...
7:46pm Mon 8 Oct 12

I think when you have to choose between starving or dying of a treatable complaint and making sure everyone can have whatever they want forever, my argument will prevail. The human rights act as laudable as it is can't make money. I have already said that I do believe the language has a right to exist but doing unsustainable and frankly bonkers things in the mistaken belief that it will thrive is just naive.

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chris227 says...
8:55pm Mon 8 Oct 12

Bob is right as usual why oh why do the WAG waste huge amounts of money on some old fashion language when most of wales a prime example being newport is a absolutely shocking state literally like a third world shanty town i would not mind if Wales was a wealthy area that had money to waste on vanity projects but it is the poorest land in western europe bar one.

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Mervyn James says...
9:22am Tue 9 Oct 12

Bob talks through his tory posterior as usual. This topic is just a rant against a culture and a language still in use. In short bordering on hate and discrimination since it rapidly went from the subjective to the personal after 6 posts. This is the result of Tory policies and rabid anti-society media that adopts the 'twitter' approach to everything, that is attack what you can wherever you can, and taps into the disgruntled meldrews in Britain who want to blame everyone else for everything that goes wrong,instead of addressing the people at source, the government and the disgraced medias who are smarting from being found out as liars,frauds, criminals, and manufacturing news when there isn't any. Any minority is now a target for the whingers. It makes you ashamed to be welsh or British. Whatever happened to fair play ?

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
9:32am Tue 9 Oct 12

MJ - you really are a stalwart on this thing. It started about the waste of money in dual language bills. You and a few others have taken it into culture attacks, minorities and other minutia.
Adrian Simmonds above has goit it spot on. Have a read.

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Bobevans says...
10:04am Tue 9 Oct 12

Merv is typical of the I want something for nothing brigade and the "It's My Right"

No one is denying his right within reason but it is not the right of other people to pay for his indulgencies. If he wants to pay for Welsh fine let him pay for it. He will not be keen on that though

In the end we are in a very competitive world and in the midst of a recession. The simple fact is we do not have money to spend on non-priority things.

Wales is broke. It spends £30B a year yet raises only £12B in taxes,

WE are also not competitive. Without heavily subsidised Public sector jobs and guanos hardly anyone would have a job in Wales

Marv is one of the typical day dreamer types of the world owes me a living type who believes in a socialist welfare utopia where his every whim is catered for by the taxpayers. Trouble is Wales does not have many of those.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
10:09am Tue 9 Oct 12

Bob - guanos? That bat and bird crap. Think you mean quango

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Llanmartinangel says...
10:57am Tue 9 Oct 12

Even Merv must smile at the irony that Welsh is paid for by English taxpayers from a revenue stream that would be shut off if Plaid Cymru ever got the independence it craves.

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Bobevans says...
6:51pm Tue 9 Oct 12

It is getting more interesting now that the WAG want to force Welsh on private sector companies. Some are currently spreading the cost across their UK business others are adopting the approach that it is a Wales only cost and are charging the cost to their customers in Wales only thats leading to typically a 3% to 5% increase in charges.

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chris227 says...
7:57pm Tue 9 Oct 12

OUTRAGEOUS do the WAG want to drive every private sector business out of this land. that b****dy WAG.

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Mervyn James says...
9:09pm Tue 9 Oct 12

What something for nothing are you talking about ? If you mean rights and equality for everyone then yes I support that. The cost ? yes again I cannot and will not, put a price on those. How can you suggest it is idealistic clap-trap (Which I am assuming you are saying). I'm ashamed to read there are people who think they can justify a person's identity, language, culture solely in cash terms.. and without even using basic comparisons of cultures other than welsh living in Wales. the discrimination mooted here and promoted as cost-saving is awful.

The WAG actually did NOT start the bi-lingual access campaigns, they are in law prior to the WAG. If you want to challenge the law, then do so. DON'T challenge people's right to being bi-lingual or wanting access that way. Can you do that without attacking the people who have that right ?

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Kaiser MacCleg says...
10:19pm Tue 9 Oct 12

Howie' wrote:

Kaiser MacCleg wrote:

Bobevans wrote:
I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred

There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh.

With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one.

The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs

If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales

We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere

WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world.

WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK

Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU

If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially

FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs.
@ Bobevans;

"There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales."

Source please.

"THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh."

Source please. You've actually underestimated the cost of the translation service for the Welsh Assembly - the response to an FOI request earlier this year clearly outlined the cost for the past four years, with the cost in 2010/11 being £707,718. I'd be interested to hear where you found the figure for the number of people who've actually made use of the service (I take it you're talking about requesting written transcripts?).

Incidentally, £707,718 is 0.000048% of the current Welsh budget.

"With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research."

Please provide a link to the peer-reviewed scientific paper which confirms this. A report by Transport Scotland and TRL, just published this August, found that;

"while there is reasonable evidence to infer bilingual signs increase the demand of the driving task, drivers appear able to absorb this extra demand, or negate it by slowing down, which ultimately results in no detectable change in accident rates."

Interestingly, the report is described by Transport Scotland as the first detailed research ever conducted on the topic, so again, I'm interested to see this "research" you've cited.

"The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate"

Please provide some evidence to back up this spurious claim.

Really, Bob, if you're going to make such grand claims about the state of the Welsh economy being down to the Welsh language, you need to provide some evidence if you want rational-minded people to take you seriously.
Kaiser, you obviously have had little dealings with Bobby boy.............

1:Never ever, ever believe anything Bob posts especially when he quote's figures, statistics or data.

2: Do not waste your time asking Bob for sources or evidence to back them up as you will have a long wait.

@ Howie

Thanks, I suspected as much. Well, "suspected" is putting it a bit lightly. Knew is closer to the mark. Often the quickest way to cut through the crap on the internet is just to ask for sources. If none are forthcoming, you know which orifice the poster is talking out of. ;)

This here Bob seems to have a lot in common with Bob10 of Wales Online fame.

[quote][p][bold]Howie'[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Kaiser MacCleg[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Bobevans[/bold] wrote: I would suggest that everyone in Wales should be asked to declare whether they wish to use Welsh or English. They will then only recieve correspondence etc in that Language. Those that opt for Welsh would have a levy applied to them to cover the additional costs incurred There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales. THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh. With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research.A driver has a limit time to take in all the information on road signs and doubling the amount of information increase the risk of accidents. It is not a big risk but is an avoidable one. The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate particularly in the current economic conditions and there is no doubt it has some mpact on jobs If Wales were really bilingual some of those costs could be offset by increased sales etc but these does not apply in Wales We only recently sawjobs goat a Call Centre in Cardiff whilst not directly lost due to Welsh that played a part in costs. They did not choose to close aan office elsewhere in the UK and move jobs to Wales they chose to axe jobs in Wales and move them elsewhere WE have to get costs down in Wales.At present we are not competative with the rest of the UK and the world. WE have to increase productivity.Again we have some of the worst productivity in the UK Any company in Wales that chooses to use Welsh is at a massive disadvantage. If the deal with companies in the rest of the UK they will want to use English as will most of Wales and the EU If we want to disaadvantage ouselves by all means use Welsh otherwise confine Welsh to a language used at home and socially FRom the culture point of few Welsh does not even have much significance. Most Welsh culture is based around English for example Rugby is a key part of Welsh Culture as are Choirs.[/p][/quote]@ Bobevans; "There is a very high cost to using Welsh and that is not helping the economy of Wales." Source please. "THe declared costs of just translating the Welsh assembly sessions is £500,000 and exactly 5 people have requested them in Welsh." Source please. You've actually underestimated the cost of the translation service for the Welsh Assembly - the response to an FOI request earlier this year clearly outlined the cost for the past four years, with the cost in 2010/11 being £707,718. I'd be interested to hear where you found the figure for the number of people who've actually made use of the service (I take it you're talking about requesting written transcripts?). Incidentally, £707,718 is 0.000048% of the current Welsh budget. "With road signs there is the additional safety risk. This has been proven by research." Please provide a link to the peer-reviewed scientific paper which confirms this. A report by Transport Scotland and TRL, just published this August, found that; "[i]while there is reasonable evidence to infer bilingual signs increase the demand of the driving task, drivers appear able to absorb this extra demand, or negate it by slowing down, which ultimately results in no detectable change in accident rates.[/i]" Interestingly, the report is described by Transport Scotland as the first detailed research ever conducted on the topic, so again, I'm interested to see this "research" you've cited. "The impact of the cost of Welsh on the economy cannot be undestimate" Please provide some evidence to back up this spurious claim. Really, Bob, if you're going to make such grand claims about the state of the Welsh economy being down to the Welsh language, you need to provide some evidence if you want rational-minded people to take you seriously.[/p][/quote]Kaiser, you obviously have had little dealings with Bobby boy............. 1:Never ever, ever believe anything Bob posts especially when he quote's figures, statistics or data. 2: Do not waste your time asking Bob for sources or evidence to back them up as you will have a long wait.[/p][/quote]@ Howie Thanks, I suspected as much. Well, "suspected" is putting it a bit lightly. Knew is closer to the mark. Often the quickest way to cut through the crap on the internet is just to ask for sources. If none are forthcoming, you know which orifice the poster is talking out of. ;) This here Bob seems to have a lot in common with Bob10 of Wales Online fame. Kaiser MacCleg

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Llanmartinangel says...
10:35pm Tue 9 Oct 12

The culture of professional victimhood is alive and well. You didn't answer the question Merv - are you happy for English taxpayers to pay for all the wasted paper being sent to monolingual speakers in Wales?

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03sull says...
10:48pm Tue 9 Oct 12

I had to make an account just because of this ridiculous article! Firstly I am a welsh speaker, FROM newport! The language may not be as common around south wales as it is in other parts of Wales but that hasn't stopped it having a huge impact on my life. Being able to speak welsh has helped me not only get a job which I love but also enables me to speak a language I'm ever so proud of! Welsh schools offer more opportunities for children, the experiences I had in school were amazing and my brothers (who went to english schools) didn't get half the opportunities I had! I don't understand how you can say its a 'waste of money' don't like the signs? Move to england!? Simple? How about moaning about murderers who get tv's in their cells? NOW THAT IS what I call a waste of tax payers money! And people wonder why society Is like it is! You're complaining about the wrong things! I'm not saying everyone has to learn welsh or even like it - but respect the people who do speak it! Absolutely disgusting!

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
1:19am Wed 10 Oct 12

osull - Another new learner Welsh fanatic. The original letter is about dual official communications not the language in general. This is a blatant waste of money, and a s for moving to England. your comments are OTT given that with your new talent you could move to Llandudno ior somewhere north. But of course the jobs could be short up there. so better to stay down here with the majority of non-welsh speakers.

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pbhj says...
1:40am Wed 10 Oct 12

03sull: "I'm not saying everyone has to learn welsh or even like it - but respect the people who do speak it!"

This is exactly what the government are saying to children though. Moreover in schools Welsh is treated as the most important subject, it is taught within all other lessons in primary schools.

03sull: "Move to england!?"

There's the rub IMO. The lie that you're less Welsh if you don't speak a particular historic Welsh language and only a modern day Welsh language (ie the one we call "English", the most spoken World language).

We should, if we're to equip the children of Wales for life, for prosperity, be first ensuring they have a good grasp of the international /lingua franca/. Second-languages taught in School should be those that are going to further Wales as part of the global economy, encourage communication between the UK and other countries, enable travel and cultural interaction _with_other_cultures
_. Yes by all means offer historic Welsh, but let it stand by itself without legal requirement.

Wales I feel is clawing it's way towards isolationism on the misguided notion that it doesn't have an identity unless it discards everything English.

If it's Welsh culture you're after then many of the older pieces of "Welsh" writing were originally in Latin (eg lives of the saints), the /lingua franca/ of the time. Or going back further of course the Welsh forebears were Britons.

03sull: "You're complaining about the wrong things!"

No. Just because this particular thread is on one subject that doesn't mean that we have ignored other subjects.

If your ship is sinking with several holes in the hull then you need to fix all the holes , addressing the biggest ones first is ideal but you'll still sink from the smaller holes if you ignore them.

According to Wikipedia the Welsh prison capacity is < 3k across 5 prisons vs. ~350k children in primary education being required to learn Welsh in preference to anything else.

03sull: "I'm not saying everyone has to learn welsh or even like it - but respect the people who do speak it!" This is exactly what the government are saying to children though. Moreover in schools Welsh is treated as the most important subject, it is taught within all other lessons in primary schools. 03sull: "Move to england!?" There's the rub IMO. The lie that you're less Welsh if you don't speak a particular historic Welsh language and only a modern day Welsh language (ie the one we call "English", the most spoken World language). We should, if we're to equip the children of Wales for life, for prosperity, be first ensuring they have a good grasp of the international /lingua franca/. Second-languages taught in School should be those that are going to further Wales as part of the global economy, encourage communication between the UK and other countries, enable travel and cultural interaction _with_other_cultures _. Yes by all means offer historic Welsh, but let it stand by itself without legal requirement. Wales I feel is clawing it's way towards isolationism on the misguided notion that it doesn't have an identity unless it discards everything English. If it's Welsh culture you're after then many of the older pieces of "Welsh" writing were originally in Latin (eg lives of the saints), the /lingua franca/ of the time. Or going back further of course the Welsh forebears were Britons. 03sull: "You're complaining about the wrong things!" No. Just because this particular thread is on one subject that doesn't mean that we have ignored other subjects. If your ship is sinking with several holes in the hull then you need to fix all the holes [bilge pumps aside], addressing the biggest ones first is ideal but you'll still sink from the smaller holes if you ignore them. According to Wikipedia the Welsh prison capacity is < 3k across 5 prisons vs. ~350k children in primary education being required to learn Welsh in preference to anything else. pbhj

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Howie' says...
9:05am Wed 10 Oct 12

@ Howie

Thanks, I suspected as much. Well, "suspected" is putting it a bit lightly. Knew is closer to the mark. Often the quickest way to cut through the crap on the internet is just to ask for sources. If none are forthcoming, you know which orifice the poster is talking out of. ;)

This here Bob seems to have a lot in common with Bob10 of Wales Online fame.

@Kaiser MacCleg

Yes he's Bobb22/ Bob Evans/ Bob10 with the same tactics on each site, claims to have statistics and data that always puts Wales and anything Welsh in a bad light but when you ask him for the sources there are never any that are forthcoming.

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Mervyn James says...
9:11am Wed 10 Oct 12

james.dyer7@ntlworld
.com wrote:
osull - Another new learner Welsh fanatic. The original letter is about dual official communications not the language in general. This is a blatant waste of money, and a s for moving to England. your comments are OTT given that with your new talent you could move to Llandudno ior somewhere north. But of course the jobs could be short up there. so better to stay down here with the majority of non-welsh speakers.

I find your posts just getting worse frankly, they are littered with personal asides and abuse. We are all fanatics now ? You obviously have no respect for other people's rights just your own, THAT attitude isolates us all not welsh people wanting welsh access in Wales. IN retrospect suggesting you leave Wales was uncalled for, but the fact remains you have a hatred of the welsh language and it isn't an healthy attitude.

from one fanatic to yet another.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
9:19am Wed 10 Oct 12

Merv - you are so very wrong. So wrong you can't see it. All i have said is that the use of dual forms is a waste of money. That's ALL. It is you who has raised the other stuff. You seem to have a tremendous knowledge about me, but what makes you think i hate Welsh? I was born in St Woolas hospital, travelled all over the UK, many hols in Wales, and have lived here most of my life. I am Welsh. Your letter in SWA was a dead giveaway about your lack of tolereance with those you disagree with.

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
9:39am Wed 10 Oct 12

Merv - and by the way, i do not abuse but give back what the other starts. Like some of your comments about moving. That was a silly point about denying people access to Welsh and 'rights'.

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Gooda says...
6:47pm Wed 10 Oct 12

no star.

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chris227 says...
10:18pm Wed 10 Oct 12

its started a bit of a debate but the likes of die hards like merv dont you think that if the WAG has money to burn they should spend it on a run down poor deprived hell hole like newport not on silly forms that get put in the bin.

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Bobevans says...
8:03am Thu 11 Oct 12

They are very keen on Welsh until it is suggested that those that want to use Welsh put their hands in their pocket and pay for it. Yhen they through their hands up in horror

AS others have suggested there is no logical reason as to why people should not be able to recive correspondence in English or Welsh. A simple tick box would do that. If the tick box is not completed it would be assumed English is required.

Why do they not want this? Because it would expose the myth of how many people use Welsh

Remember the fisaco over some AM's that did not comply with election rules. They tried to claim they used the Welsh forms which had not been updated but no one had acceesed or downloaded anything from that Web page. Even stranger when they submitted the forms they submitted the English language ones

Welsh is a social language and part of Wales history but it is not an everyday working langague and will never be so.

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Cwmderi says...
11:52am Thu 11 Oct 12

I wonder how many of these anti Welsh fanatics have followed the brilliant BBC series on The History of Wales, presented equally brilliantly by Huw Edwards, a proud welsh speaker who gives added value to the history, understanding, culture of Wales and the Welsh language.
Perhaps many of those who appear to hate the language would like to take our children back to the days of the 'Welsh Not'
Then again, from the tone of some of the contributors they probably have not followed this excellent series as they are absorbed in the daily doses of English Soap.
If some of them can start to think outside their narrow and blinkered boxes, they might wish to study the 'facts' about the academic successes of our Welsh Language Schools in South Wales who out perform their English counterparts across the border by some distance.
Dros Gymru

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james.dyer7@ntlworld.com says...
1:34pm Thu 11 Oct 12

cw2mderi - You are another one who misses the basic point originally which was dual use on forms, to which the mumbo-jumbo you quote is not applicable.

Not all non-Welsh speakers are thickies like you suggest but i expect you wouldn't include Pobl y cwm in your distaste of soaps. I agree about Welsh schools as well. AND I HAVE WATCHED THE HISTORY SERIES WHICH IS EXCELLENT.
My question to you is - so what? The dual use of welsh and english is still a waste of money.

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Welsh is a waste of money (From South Wales Argus)

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